The biggest "LIES" the movies ever told me.

[skeptic]

Moore has appeared regularly on television lately and said many times publicly with no appologies that he would like to see George Bush defeated in the upcoming election and hopes that this film contributes to that defeat. (Personally I'm not sure who I'm voting for but I don't like people trying to manipulate me this way.)

As for professional historians, not only do they have the perspective of time, often decades or centuries to distance themselves from the emotions of the moment, but if they are worth anything at all, they do extensive research reading private correspondence, diaries, listening to what others who have researched the subject have to say, and put all of the facts in context. Yes sometimes they disagree but as more and more time elapses and the events lose their current edge in the haze of antiquity, they are seen though entirely different eyes. It is amazing how few Republicans now would dream of repealing Social Security or Medicare (although they might like to tinker with them) when just a few decades ago, they denounced them as Socialism. There are very few people left anymore who feel that somehow the United States could have stayed out of World War Two or get worked up over World War One or Prohibition or the Civil War. At the time, these were all hot button issues. The time between then and now distances us from those events and even the most extreme differences that still exist among historians are orders of magnitude less than they were at the time. The facts in most of them are generally accepted, the interpretations may differ. But the discussion is usually scholarly, not passionate. That's what separates historians from pundits and we shouldn't confuse the two. I'm sure most professional historians and even amateur historians would agree.

[Worf101]

I've only one thing to add on the whole "propaganda" side of my thread (is this my thread? I'm sure I left it here two days ago... ).

History is written by the victors (at least military history is) while time may boil down historical events to a basic set of bones, interpretation and deliberate ah... "downplaying" of facts can still lead to widely varied versions of "history". You cannot write the Carthaginian side of the Punic wars because the Romans slaughtered every one of them they could find. Ergo you may never have both sides of every story. My original idea with this thread was how wildly wrong Hollywood can be about some historical events.

Mr. Moore's movie is a sensitive issue because it's NOT about some old battle or war lost in the mists of time but about an event less than 4 years old that we're still dealing with the repercussions of today. I can see why it would raise passions. But as I said before.... I don't discuss movies I have not seen, but you folks that have seen it are free to "have at it". I'll just have some of this here popcorn.

Da Worfster

[woodman]

Moore has appeared regularly on television lately and said many times publicly with no appologies that he would like to see George Bush defeated in the upcoming election and hopes that this film contributes to that defeat. (Personally I'm not sure who I'm voting for but I don't like people trying to manipulate me this way.)

Crikeys, skep ... I thought that you had more of a brain than most of the monkeys that populate boards such as these. At least most of what you post conveys that impression. Don't know who you're gonna vote for? C'mon get real here. So Moore has said publicly that he wants to dethrone the Chimp and made this movie to help that scenario to come to fruition. God bless him. I for one applaud his honesty in the matter. He makes no bones about the fact that he considers Dubya a buffoon who is sitting in the WhiteHouse illegally through manipulation and deception and has absolutely no credentials of any sort that would make him eligible to be president. Additionally, he's dishonest, unscrupulous, conniving, greedy, deceitful, manipulative, and stoooopid besides! He's single-handedly taken this country of ours 37 GIANT steps backwards, and his defeat is IMO, the most important political event of my lifetime. I haven't seen Moore's latest film, but as ismaVA pointed out, there's an offer on the table to anyone who can offer any proof that anything presented in the film is not true. So, to call it a pack of lies is one humongous stretch, IMO.

It is amazing how few Republicans now would dream of repealing Social Security or Medicare (although they might like to tinker with them) when just a few decades ago, they denounced them as Socialism.

From where I sit, I think that most Republicans would like very much to do away with both of those programs, although they wouldn't say so publicly. That's reason enough in my book to vote against all of them every chance I get. The fact that they have the support of the "Christian Right" is to my mind the joke of the century - only I'm not laughing.

[skeptic]

I don't need you to teach me to hate Republicans. That came from just watching the evening news night after night as trash like Newt Gingrich, Dick Army, and Henry Hyde tried to destroy President Clinton without caring that they were destroying America with him. Ted Kennedy who should have spent his life in jail instead of the Senate notwithstanding, it took me a lot longer to learn to hate Democrats with the same degree of contempt. If nothing else, Clinton betrayed his supporters and the country with exactly the same brand of stupidity as Gary Hart betrayed his supporters. And that spineless fool who said he invented the internet promised at the Democratic convention he would fight for me and all the other Americans. Hell, he couldn't fight for a 5 year old little boy who floated up on a log in Florida. Gore stood idly by while he was sent back to the slave prison called Cuba without so much as a hearing before a family court. He couldn't fight for himself when the Republicans stole the election right out from under him. I WILL NOT read the history of this era the way CNN, FOX or MSNBC wants me to interpret it. I see these self serving little men for what they are and they all disgust me. All birds of a feather. It's a wonder the terrorists haven't destroyed our country already. These midgets have no guts, no mettle, and no sense of history. I'm not voting for anybody. There isn't a one in the lot qualified for the job this time. Dubya too although sad to say it, he is the best of a sorry lot. At least he didn't try to destroy Israel the way Clinton did. Well not after I and a lot of other people wrote to him two years ago to tell him to "cool it."

[IsmaVA]

There is a lot of fanatism in this post . . .

A couple of books that I think everybody should read:

The Grand Chessboard by Zbigniew Brzezinski a very interesting pre-9/11 (about 3 years before) book in which the "roadmap" to the U.S. world supremacy is explained.

The War on Freedom by Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed, not really a book, but a compilation of documents about the stream of info leading up to the 9/11 attacks.

A quote from Jonathan Swift: "It is useless to attempt to reason a person out of something they were never reasoned into."

[skeptic]

Which politician did I mischaracterize?

[Troy]

What Woodman said.

I'm utterly fascinated with how F911 polarizes EVERYONE. I saw it last week and it was one of the saddest films I have ever seen.

For a few months I've been thainking about, and F911 confirmed, that once the soldiers start coming home disillusioned, THAT will be the downfall of this war. Just like VietNam. Expect the draft to be started up within months if W gets re-elected.

Personally, I think (just as Moore does) all politicians are scumbags that are only in it for the $. Moore's films have always been about the fact that people that run our country and our country's industry (oh, same thing, sorry) only care about the money, not about their constituents.

Was Moore over the top with his editing to pull heartstrings? Absolutely. He's always done it. But the footage of the woman selling "rabbits for food or pets" in Roger and Me was funny (uncomfortable, but funny) and footage of us slaughtering Iraqi civillians in F911 is decidedly NOT funny. A lot of what he compiled was inappropriate, but if you can't show proof that Moore was wrong about all that $ coming from the Saudis to the Bush corporate coffers or that W froze like a deer in headlights for 7 minutes on 9/11 in a Florida grade school reading class, then it's hard to buy people that constantly say "It's all a pack of lies", because the fact is, no one has proved that it is. Yeah, someone call me when that 10k for finding factual errors gets paid out.

I think that the people that run our government ARE playing us like violins, manipulating us with fear and vague threats while they take billions from the Saudis to fight the Saudi war for the promise of cheap oil under the thin veil of WMD threats and bogus connections of Iraq to Al-Queda. If you choose to think that this is untrue, they you are just being a Pollyanna. As a public, we don't care. We'd rather argue about stupid things like gay mariage and watch football. We ARE the Romans and that sucks. Yeah, F911 was extremely disheartening and depressing, but I think everybody should see it.

[skeptic]

If there was credible evidence that the policies of the United States as formulated in the White House were in some way influenced by a foreign government or prominent foreign citizens for money, you can be sure that there would be a deafening outcry among Democrats for a special prosecutor to look into it to see if another impeachment trial is warranted. We had a tremendous row over foreign influence from China in the Clinton administration and as I recall, someone was prosecuted. If lying about sex in a sworn deposition rises to the level of impeachment, foreign influence peddling certainly would as well. (If every man who lied about sex in a courtroom was tried and convicted of perjury, half the male population of America would be in jail.) Given that so far there has been no investigation and no talk of an investigation, I have to assume that Moore's movie is all a pile of crap based on speculation, wishful thinking, and nothing else. Since he answers to nobody, why should he be taken seriously?

[Bryan]

Back on topic:

Independence Day: That a guy with an Apple laptop is able to take down an alien civilization with a computer virus. Forget trying to decipher the other alien software programs.