Mytrcraft is an idiot.

[E-Stat]

I have yet to see anyone successfully challenge him even once. Quite the opposite. He challenges people who make statements and claims they can't back up with facts and then he pushes them on it until they back down or their statements are made to look as rediculous as they are.

That is not particularly difficult.

Two minute amnesia

rw

[skeptic]

"As I have replied once before to your statements...."

And as I have replied once before to YOUR statements, the best part about arguing with you is when I give up because it is like the wonderful feeling you get when you stop hitting your head against a brick wall. The better choice is to not even start.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

"As I have replied once before to your statements...."

And as I have replied once before to YOUR statements, the best part about arguing with you is when I give up because it is like the wonderful feeling you get when you stop hitting your head against a brick wall. The better choice is to not even start.

You give up because you know you are making crap up. There is no other reason than that. I wouldn't start anything I knew I couldn't win either, that would be a waste of time. I guess you are right, anytime someone comes up with the crap you have regarding acoustics, I guess I am like a brick wall.

[skeptic]

"Come on, do you really think sony cares about accurate or quality?"

Actually I do. But it doesn't matter. When the parts they are made from reach the limit of what is possible for them, the issue disappears.

I wasted some time one night watching the history of screwmaking on the History Channel. When screws were first invented, they were expensive, rare, and their quality was awful. It was only probably about 150 years ago that mass production of high quality screws began. Today, nobody would think twice about the quality of screws they buy because unless you have some very special application, one is pretty much as good as another of the same type. They are "commoditized." The same is happening with cd players.

[996turbo]

"Come on, do you really think sony cares about accurate or quality?"

Actually I do. But it doesn't matter. When the parts they are made from reach the limit of what is possible for them, the issue disappears.

I wasted some time one night watching the history of screwmaking on the History Channel. When screws were first invented, they were expensive, rare, and their quality was awful. It was only probably about 150 years ago that mass production of high quality screws began. Today, nobody would think twice about the quality of screws they buy because unless you have some very special application, one is pretty much as good as another of the same type. They are "commoditized." The same is happening with cd players.

A screw only has 1 or 2 components in the make up. I would think this is a bad example. Although I was building a swing set for my daughter and the screws that came with it were horrible. They would bend and break halfway into the wood. I know what you mean though. at the lower level of audio as well as many other goods they are pretty much the same. We have been trying to make you understand that there is a level of gear that is not "comoditized".

I once again ask anyone who thinks that a Plinius does not sound different than an NAD or a Sony cd player different than a Wadia come to my house where I have the gear to listen to and we will do whatever test you want.

[996turbo]

Within Sony there are many price points.

Are you saying that every Sony sounds alike regardless of price?

Are they all the same player just a nicer box?

I do not think so. Why do not you call Dan Wright and ask him about the differences that exist. and then how much better he can make even the SCD-777es sound with his mods.

[skeptic]

There will always be defective merchandise. And there will always be merchandise made by people who looked for every possible corner to cut and wound up cutting a few too many. But, then there are products like cd players. The beauty of a cd player is that it works perfectly or not at all. The transports now cost next to nothing having been mass produced by the hundreds of millions for computers. Power requirements are extremely modest so it doesn't take much to provide a good power supply. The difference is in the chips for the D/A. The beauty of that is amortization makes today's most advanced chips cheaper and cheaper with time until they cost next to nothing almost overnight. That is why, even if you don't feel the average players today equal the best, it won't be all that long before they catch up.

Only rare collectors buy expensive watches or fountain pens. Today the run of the mill digital watch keeps far better time than the best Rolex of 50 years ago and when the battery dies, you throw it away half the time unless you are fond of the bracelet. Owning a fine fountain pen was once an issue of pride and people rarely carried pens around with them. Today, most pens are probably lost long before they ever run out of ink and write perfectly every time to the point where you never even think about them. That is how most consumer electronic equipment is getting to be. It will become increasingly difficult for "high end" manufacturers to distinguish their products from mass market equivalents based on performance alone. All they will be left with is brand name prestige, styling, and massive design overkill which will be difficult to justify.

[996turbo]

" It will become increasingly difficult for "high end" manufacturers to distinguish their products from mass market equivalents based on performance alone."

Thank you for agreeing with me. In that statement you said there is a difference. This is what I have been trying to say all along. I do think that sometime in the future it will be hard to distinguish between hi end and run of the mill. The question is how far will that be in the future? Technology has been progressing all of our lives. I have listened to some very good redbook as well as SACD. I think there will for the forseable future be a desire for Hi end. Computers get faster everyday, Cars get safer averyday, and audio will continue to get better. I agree that what is expensive today will be cheap tomorow. 20 years ago we thought cd was the perfect media. Today we are still improving on perfection with SACD and DVD-Audio.

[mtrycraft]

I did not do any fancy comparisons just played one and then the next. We did level match with an SPL meter though. These are three hugely different amps and they each sounded very different. I know this wil not be believed by some, but all there heard differences.

Well, this may explain some of the problems. Did you use test tones to level match or just the music source? No bias controls so you just did a preference test, if that.



Audio is similiar they are all trying to do the same thing but there are differences.

Oh, but just as your examples, all can be tested properly for differences, to remove your biases from judgement. You didn't. So, it is just unreliable.


An amp is the sum of its parts. there is no absolute standard as to what "well designed" is.

You will find very few absolutes in life and in science.

But, all amps can be compared properly for differences so it has some meaning. Yours hase none.

[b] Every manufacturer thinks their product is well designed or else it would not last.[/QUOTE]

Not at all. It is the consumer who has to decide. And consumers, on the whole, are gullible or the consumer marketplace would be about half. All the psychics would be out of business, most of the cable makers would be out, holistic medicines would be in history books with homeopathic ones, and on it goes. Prof. John Mack would need a new career, Sylvia Brown would be homeless along with John Edwards, James VanPraagh and on.

[996turbo]

So when are you going to come over or name the place to prove your point?

How many times do I have to ask. You have well over a thousand post showing how adamant you are. Time to prove it!!

Yes I did level test with a 1000k Test tone and adjust inputs on my Spectral DMC-20
I suppose it was a preference test but we all picked the amps and put them in the same order of preference. For example the NAD just flat ran out of gas in the Bass department. I think it would be good to have a Spectrum Analyzer here when you come over so we can see where the Amps start to roll off as it was obvious to all that the NAD rolled at higher volumes.

[Sondek]

The whole "you can't prove this" again is 100% irrelevant.

No two products sound exactly the same. Measurements are not complete and do not show that each time.

For that matter, if I say I run test tones all day and a cheap cd player made them sound painfully bright, someone who was not there cannot tell me that statement is true or false.

Running pink noise out of a cd player into a simple resistive load on a o'scope is far and away not conclusive as to how it sounds.

The people that own quality gear are not imagining things. It's those with no experiance, no quality gear and poor understanding of how electronic components inside a player treat the signal that have the loudest protest.

I have never met anyone in my life (at least not since 1986) that is in the audio hobby that cannot routinely tell the difference between the detail of a cheap sony and a Krell. There is all kinds of information the sony does not produce, and if you can't hear the obvious difference, that is a severe hearing disability.

But it's obvious to me, some people can't here the difference between jack and sh**. They have an asinine blind faith in simple instrument measurements.

The only "oh yeah" prove it I can do is allow someone to listen to my system or any of those I have assembled. We know that a certain 5,000+ poster will never be privvy to most people's systems here, so all arguments he makes are 100% irrelevent.

"Prove it" he says.

I can post measurements all day long, and it won't matter until you hear it. Anything to the contrary is utter BS.

Solder makes a difference
Cd clocks make a difference
Shielding makes a difference
capacitors makie a difference
op amps make a difference

and engineers are smart enough to know that for $400 , many product compromises are made, not allowing the best analog stage or other compoenents to be included. There is only so much you will get so the company still profits.

So when someone really rams thier head up thier own A** and says "Be smarter than an engineer who makes it" they are making a brain-dead statement. Improving the existing components makes the player more capable than it already is.

A Corvette is NOT as fast as it could be with simple mods, it is merely tuned for optimum lifespan and streetability. I don't have to know more than GM to realize the engine acts like an air pump, and it has been artificially limited for various reasons. That potential can be tapped and exploted with a few mods. the same is 100% true for almost all audio components.

There is always room for improvement with science, not voodoo.

[skeptic]

Exactly what would anyone accopmlish at your home? Do you have switching equipment to allow rapid AB comparisons? At the very least, that would be necessary to prove anything. I assume you have some duplicate cds as well. I also assume you have tried blind AB tests yourself many times and that is how you have satisfied yourself of their differences.

But even if there turns out to be minor differences in the sound of one amplifier or one cd player from another, how will YOU demonstrate that they are NOT due to small differences in frequency response which are easily adjusted for? Bob Carver once claimed he could make any amplifier sound like any other amplifier given 24 hours. He said that the difference was due to "transfer function" differences. That is technospeak for frequency response. And it is entirely plausible.

[996turbo]

Once again

I have the ability to level match on my pre.
I have a computeter that I can make duplicates or if thats not good enough I will buy duplicates.
Scott Nixon is right down the road and he has all the test gear you could ask for.
I believe that test gear is not the whole answer as there are lots of things that can not be tested for but have an audible difference.

So what is the date?

[Resident Loser]

"...Solder makes a difference..."

Ersin Multicore...the brand I use makes formulations other than the ol'standby 60/40 blend...it is made for solder baths and production line purposes...it solidifies quickly...it has no magical properties and Ersin does not claim it to have any...even JR(when he used to make an appearance @ this site)was forced to backpedal after my constant hammering re: certain claims and conceded that its main advantage was for the DIYer who was lousy at soldering...period.

"...Cd clocks make a difference..."

Don't know, don't really care...IMO digital is an approximation and deserves the same level of respect that HT does...very little to none...

"...Shielding makes a difference..."

No! Really?...Thanks for stating the bleedin' obvious...this proves what?

"...capacitors makie(sic) a difference..."

Way back when, mil-spec was the real deal(still is?)...Mark Levinson used them in his early offerings...tight tolerances and high rejection rates equals higher prices...most(if not all) of the "wonder-" "super-" whatever stuff is just mil-spec'd in a fancy wrapper(like cables and such)...and the "word-of-mouth" hooey about them has created even higher prices without commensurately better performance...

"...op amps make a difference..."

I prefer discrete components over ICs...I'm not sure where op amps are, in the grand scheme of things...controlling circuits?

"...not allowing the best analog stage or other compoenents to be included..."

Best? In what way? Longevity? Measureable...Better separation or FR or distortion? Also measureable...there is very little that isn't a...er...measureable...

"...Corvette is NOT as fast as it could be with simple mods, it is merely tuned for optimum lifespan and streetability. I don't have to know more than GM to realize the engine acts like an air pump, and it has been artificially limited for various reasons. That potential can be tapped and exploted with a few mods. the same is 100% true for almost all audio components..."

Sure drop in a K&N Filtercharger or a Borla exhaust...Jacobs ignition or a hotter cam...maybe port and polish and a better set of headers...all dyno measureable...a little wrenchin' and a busted knuckle or two and the average shade-tree mechanic can do it. All the auto after-market folks make claims and publish numbers, charts and graphs, they have hard data to back up their claims...dem pesky measurements agin! What exactly is "...100% true for all audio components..."

"...There is always room for improvement with science, not voodoo..."

jimHJJ(...well, at least we can agree on one thing...)

[996turbo]

The whole point is that measurements do not tell the only story. There are lots of refernces where an audible difference occured outside of measurable changes. I put a link to a comment by a DCS engineer who stated this very thing about upsampling. They know there is an improvement in sound but they do not know exactly where it is yet. There are lots of things that exist in this world that are beyond the current technology to measure.

Do you believe in god?

[996turbo]

Oh yeah. what is the date. Either put your money where your mouth is or stop talking about it.

[Resident Loser]

...your last two posts are threaded to mine but make absolutely no sense...particularly since I responded to Sondek..

jimHJJ(...I really dislike the new formats...)

[996turbo]

I know this format is somewhat confusing.

I was refering to Skeptic. But you of course are included in those invited to have the test.

[Resident Loser]

"...I know this format is somewhat confusing..."

Not confusing if you pay attention...

"...I was refering to Skeptic..."

Then, you should have replied to HIS post.

Scroll down to the "Display Mode" and activate "threaded" and you'll see what I mean...

jimHJJ(...quite simple really...)

[996turbo]

I see I was on Linear.

Don't get so testy. I will modify from now on.

[Resident Loser]

"...I see I was on Linear...Don't get so testy...."

jimHJJ(...you think THAT'S an example of me being testy?...)

[996turbo]

Come on do you guys have to be argumentative all the time or are you just naturally like that.

I admit openly and freely I did not know I was posting improperly.

[Sondek]

"...Solder makes a difference..."

Ersin Multicore...the brand I use makes formulations other than the ol'standby 60/40 blend...it is made for solder baths and production line purposes...it solidifies quickly...it has no magical properties and Ersin does not claim it to have any...even JR(when he used to make an appearance @ this site)was forced to backpedal after my constant hammering re: certain claims and conceded that its main advantage was for the DIYer who was lousy at soldering...period.
--I wouldn't use that crap. I am 2m capable. I use Cardas quad eutectic. Much superior. Blows 60/40 into the dirt.

"...Cd clocks make a difference..."

Don't know, don't really care...IMO digital is an approximation and deserves the same level of respect that HT does...very little to none...

--Make a lot of difference, you just have no clue. You are talking out of your own A$$ with NO experiance at all. You should shut up.

"...Shielding makes a difference..."

No! Really?...Thanks for stating the bleedin' obvious...this proves what?

--That you have no clue..it's obvious from this "dog barking from a corner" post oif yours.

"...capacitors makie(sic) a difference..."

Way back when, mil-spec was the real deal(still is?)...Mark Levinson used them in his early offerings...tight tolerances and high rejection rates equals higher prices...most(if not all) of the "wonder-" "super-" whatever stuff is just mil-spec'd in a fancy wrapper(like cables and such)...and the "word-of-mouth" hooey about them has created even higher prices without commensurately better performance...

--Says you. because again, you obviously have *zero* expeirance and are simply speaking from a corner with no clue whatsoever.

"...op amps make a difference..."

I prefer discrete components over ICs...I'm not sure where op amps are, in the grand scheme of things...controlling circuits?
--No. they amplify the output of the DAC. They can make a HUGE, obvious difference. But again, you obviously have no idea.

"...not allowing the best analog stage or other compoenents to be included..."

Best? In what way? Longevity? Measureable...Better separation or FR or distortion? Also measureable...there is very little that isn't a...er...measureable...

--You have no clue. you are interjecting "i don't knows" You must stop projecting your total lack of real experiance. There is an audible and measurable difference.


"...Corvette is NOT as fast as it could be with simple mods, it is merely tuned for optimum lifespan and streetability. I don't have to know more than GM to realize the engine acts like an air pump, and it has been artificially limited for various reasons. That potential can be tapped and exploted with a few mods. the same is 100% true for almost all audio components..."

Sure drop in a K&N Filtercharger or a Borla exhaust...Jacobs ignition or a hotter cam...maybe port and polish and a better set of headers...all dyno measureable...a little wrenchin' and a busted knuckle or two and the average shade-tree mechanic can do it. All the auto after-market folks make claims and publish numbers, charts and graphs, they have hard data to back up their claims...dem pesky measurements agin! What exactly is "...100% true for all audio components..."

--I have also modded cars. The mods up power greatly. That isn't even a contestable fact. Any component can be improved over basic design...100% of them. Speakers, cd players, sources, amps and so on. None are perfect, all can be improved.


"...There is always room for improvement with science, not voodoo..."

jimHJJ(...well, at least we can agree on one thing...)

--None of the mods are voodoo. they are electrically superior. But again, you show no knowledge of what you complain about. Very strong opinion based on weak knowledge and no experiance. How pathetic. You have simply rammed your foot right down your own throat with sheer stupidity. Good show!

[Resident Loser]

...a remedial reading course...your lack of understanding is quite astonishing...

jimHJJ(...Cardas eutectic?...same production-line $h!t I mentioned...Cardas don't own the word "eutectic"...and I'll bet they buy it in bulk and slap their own label on it...)

[996turbo]

Hey Loser. Skeptic, and Mytrcraft.

When are you going to put your money where your mouth is and answer my challenge?