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Thanks again Loser
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
"...Was there any difference in any of that gear?..."
As far as speakers are concerned, then as now, yes...other stuff...well, specs improved over time, the materials used did likewise, circuit topologies evolved, SS pretty much won out over tubes...however, like gear exhibited similar sound and it was the speakers that pretty much defined it...and you must take into account the continuing tech improvements in recording and the ever-changing performance and recording styles; acoustic to electric, mono to stereo and now analog to digital, some of which are horribly incompatible on one level, yet peerless on an artistic one.
"...Having the experience would you say that some equipment was worth more than other..."
In what way? Cost vs. value? In the 80s there was the Advent reciever rated @15wpc...blew the doors off some more expensive and higher powered gear and the tuner section was no slouch either...Tom Schotz as I recall(I could be wrong)...there was a time Fisher and Marantz were the ne plus ultra...we all know that tune...I personally am investigating inexpensive, quality gear and how it compares to my reference system.
"...In the recording area are there any differences among mikes or digital devices like a DCS upsampler to the less expensive ones..."
As far as digital...let's just say I prefer analog and that is my reference...to me, number-crunching is always going to be an approximation...Different mikes exhibit different characteristics...dynamic, condenser, omni, cardoid...some better suited to close techniques as opposed to field miking, X-Y, etc. some more suitable with specific instruments or even voices and styles...Additonally it has become more of a production choice, depending on the preferences of those involved.
"...I have found that most profesional sound people are not as much into stereos as an audiophile. They are more interested in the live event. I personally think that most of the live events I have been to sound horrible in comparison to my system. This is due to the fact that they are not going for Timbral acuracy. They want to flood a large area with sound. I am of course talking of amplified music here and not acoustic or orchestral..."
Unfortunately, many folks(myself included) have fallen into the "audiophile" trap. For some unknown reason, because we have invested time and money in what really is just another "divertimento", we tend to get self-righteous...we know best and we refer to our record collection as "program material" and use terms like "reference system"...much to the annoyance of some.
My interest in recording is soup to nuts...an attempt to correlate what goes in to what comes out...solos to small combos...either in a controlled environment or smaller clubs. I must say, knowing what THE live performance sounds like gives one an entirely different perspective...The recording and playback process introduces various forms of signal compression and other anomolies...If you're looking for a sonic hologram, well...fuggedaboudit!...Close, but no cigar...The best results have been with binaural...
"...I noticed that alot of that gear is older stuff when engineering of Levinson was years ahead of the pack. Today the gear differences are smaller in the stratosphere but I think because back then there were fewer high end companies..."
All those names I mentioned were more for a reference point...
You really have to keep one thing in mind...it doesn't matter what you may be selling, some things remain a constant...unless you can employ the economies of scale, you must set yourself apart...it can be a unique design, using mil-spec parts...limited production will sell for a tidy sum...it follows a cost vs. price formula based on a number of economic variables...marketing or at least understanding the basic priciples thereof and exploiting your customer base is as important as anything else in your enterprise...In some cases it's legitimate quality. In others, it's just hype.
Actually, there was little need for the cottage industry of esoteric audio...obviously they were there, but...the good stuff was available on a far wider scale...it was the advent of HT that really destroyed audio(as I grew up knowing it) and turned it into just another appliance...there doesn't seem to be a middle ground, pretty much mass-market and high-end...
jimHJJ(...but that's just me...)
I think that was a very well thought out post and I appreciate the thoughts you have you have obviously been around the scene for a while.
It seems we do actually agree on alot of things. For me it is the pioneers in audio that make up the highend market. They strive to get the last bit of resolution available with current technology SOTA
Just like in economics there will be trickle down. The gap between High end and standard is shortening all the time. Just look at all the raves about the Panny xr-45. I for one love big SS power.I love all of the feedback I get from my system. The tactile responce of the smooth switchs, The warmth from the amp and finally when I am in the spot with everything dialed in the sound. When you pay more for something you expect to get more. I feel I get what I have paid for.
In the end we all are into music. I have heard lots of high end systems in the last year or so .I liked some more than others the owner liked theirs and that is all that really matters.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
I am the first to acknowledge that there are small audible differences in cd players due to minor differences in analog frequency response. These are easily compensated for in the equalization of the overall system response. If you don't believe in using an equalizer or can't get one to work successfully for you, then you become obsessed with these minor differences which depending on the rest of your system will exaggerate or mitigate the linear distortion inherent in it.
It is not very wise to use electronic equalization to correct the problems of indidiviual components. By doing so, you effect the frequency response of all of the components behind the eq. Also you effect one of the good things that could come from your system. The frequency response of the direct output of your speakers.
If you speakers have a reasonably flat frequency response and equalization is introduced into the system, you could change the frequency response for the worse.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
I know a poorly made photograph when I see one.
A thousand pardons for my quick pic on the Sony digital. These glamor shots came from the Burmester site.
<img src="http://burmester.de/images/mat/cd-laufwerk-969-big.jpg">
<img src="http://burmester.de/images/mat/da-wandler-970-big.jpg">
rw
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The photography appears to be decent but hardly out of the ordinary. The styling of the equipment is about the same.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
The styling of the equipment is about the same.
That would be because they are the same units - just different pics. The first picture is the one in a system I've heard.
More info if you care:
<a href="http://burmester.de/english/productlines/da-converter-970.html">DAC</a href>
<a href="http://burmester.de/english/productlines/cd-transport-969.html">Transport</a href>
rw
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And now for the $64 question...
...Have you ever compared this unit(s) to anything else based on thr Philips CDM 9 PRO?
I mean, while they are certainly impressive units and commensurately expensive(I'm sure), how much of that expense is really required...the plinth, the substantial faceplate, the panels/chassis...the plating and/or polishing...the connectivity options...user adjustable filters...I can't help thinking the cost for all of the bells, whistles and ornamentation far exceeds that of the mechanicals and required electronics.
Your use of the phrase "glamour photography" speaks volumes as does the mfrs.catchphrase "Art For The Ear"..I always thought the performance was the art...
jimHJJ(...I love good food, but I don't eat ambiance...)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...Have you ever compared this unit(s) to anything else based on thr Philips CDM 9 PRO?
No, I have not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
I mean, while they are certainly impressive units and commensurately expensive(I'm sure), how much of that expense is really required...the plinth, the substantial faceplate, the panels/chassis...the plating and/or polishing...the connectivity options...user adjustable filters...I can't help thinking the cost for all of the bells, whistles and ornamentation far exceeds that of the mechanicals and required electronics.
No question there as this is clearly a "best we can do regardless of price" statement product. By any sane reasoning, it is not worth it's rather steep pricetag. It is, however, a stellar sonic accomplishment that will be a hard act to follow. Now, if Toshiba could match it's performance for one hundredth the cost, they would make many an audiphile very
happy.
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 996turbo
why will not you guys answer some simple questions.
WHAT HAVE YOU LISTENED TO????
Allow me to make this as simple as possible.....IT ISN'T RELAVENT!
-Bruce
:rolleyes:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLZapped
Allow me to make this as simple as possible.....IT ISN'T RELAVENT!
-Bruce
:rolleyes:
It is very relevant.
If one has only heard the offerings of Circuit city, there is no reference for detail or high end.
There is no comparision between what is found in a mass-market store and a high end store.
It is releveant that if someone has not listened to high end, at length (especially at home) they have no frame of reference to compare or comment.
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Styling on these units is nothing to write home about. Actually, they look to be on the ugly side to me. Black and gold, Black and silver, black and black if it's done really well. McIntosh had some beautiful looking units. Harmon Kardon Nocturne series was really nice looking too but that's probably way before your time.
I've gotten to like carousels a lot. You can load several cds and even change some of them while one is playing. I'm getting sick and tired of getting up every time I want to change a cd. Do they have a carousel? Does this have a remote? Can you perform A-B repeat? Can you control the volume with the remote?
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Well...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat D
The fact that one cannot prove two things are the same does not justify all sorts of positive claims. When the differences are prima facie below the JNDs, then claims of sonic differences are highly suspect.
You're missing my point. There is empirical evidence a difference exists. I for one can reliably tell the CD players in my household appart and the difference between them is not in the least subtle. It is true that my intimate knowledge of their sound makes me able to do that. Anyone with a little attention to detail could overtime identify differences in gear without a need for ABX. In most cases differences almost present themselves especially on material one is very familiar with. There's nothing scientific about this, only a matter of personal experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat D
Of course one ordinarily has a reason for doing a DBT or SBT. Why would a consumer bother to do a DBT or SBT if he/she did not think they heard any differences? Maybe for the interest.
The only way of conducting such a test is setting it up in such a way that postulated (either theoretical or measured) differences are highlighted. Any other way will tend to obscure the issues the test is actually set to gage.
Selecting audio gear is no different but ABX testing is not very practical. Someone knowledgeable will look for added sonic performance not neccessarely based on price criteria. Price should only be used to define what one can actually afford and nothing more. I always take the stuff back home on loan for a week or so which is usually long enough to judge not only sonic character but also particular system matching of the said stuff. Most of the time I will use my headphones in the process just because it takes out the room/speaker variables out and it gets me more intimate with the way the gear in question plays my favourite tunes. Sometimes for instance changes could be really dramatic and if you're interested I could talk about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat D
Many of us do not think informing consumers about unlikely claims is a waste of time.
I tend to agree here. However some members of this board are awfully... shall I say... repetitive.
You can get excellent sound rather cheap nowadays. That doesn't mean better performance is not available out there and sometimes price doesn't even change much in the process.
This is the message you guys should pass along.
Peace!
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I must say that this thread has really taken off. Surprisingly, myrthcraft has not responed to any of the derogatory comments about himself. Things that make you go hmmmm.
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I believe have not read such a
vitriolic thread on this site before. Nor have I ever read such a stupid premise. I do believe the premise of this thread has completely exceeded all permissible bounds.
Deepthroat is reported to have told Bob Woodward to "follow the money".
I must wonder: Where is the money trail here? Why is the necessity of high-priced equipment, not to mention other expensive doo-dads, being pushed so viciously?
Some posters would seem motivated to silence the viewpoints seemingly espoused by Mtrycraft under the guise that they only wish to provide counterpoint. This attack is not counterpoint, nor does it seem particularly well-reasoned. It is merely a personal attack and only suitable for the Asylum site and a lawsuit.
Final thought on why the premise of this thread was a REALLY BAD IDEA :
Why on earth should Mtrycraft ever respond to this thread? It would compromise his legal position in pursuing redress for this sad episode. Now, if y'all think that Kuzma's and Burmesters are expensive, wait until you start paying a trial attorney $300 per hour to save your "legal butt".
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
Do they have a carousel?
Nope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
Does this have a remote?
A rather heavy one at that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
Can you perform A-B repeat?
Pretty sure it does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
Can you control the volume with the remote?
With either balanced or unbalanced connections.
rw
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Come on man
What are you talking about?
Legal premise for what?
How has Mtyrcrafts reputation been damaged?
Seems that he was not the only one who was put down in this thread. My family and I have been attacked as well.
What kind of weasel crys lawsuit because of some thread on a website between some people with fake namkes and a degree of anonimity.
Lighten up
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I think it is an awesome player. There are some people who just do not get it. There are many layers to the enjoyment of Life. Function although very important in life is not the only consideration. I feel sorry for someone who can not appreciate the nice lines of a Porsche or the smell of a pretty woman.
Form also plays into life. You are certainly paying for that in the burmeister as well as the porsche.
It is just what is important to you.
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I don't think you have anything to worry about as far as a lawsuit is concerned. You are free to express your opinion that Mtrycrafts or anyone else is an idiot if the administrator allows it within the bounds of civil discussion here. Of course, by doing that, and the way you have gone about it, I have quickly come to the conclusion that a lot of other people here have probably come to also, and that is that if there is an idiot to be found here, it is guess who.....! That's right bub, just look in the mirror.
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Oh come on Skeptic
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
I don't think you have anything to worry about as far as a lawsuit is concerned. You are free to express your opinion that Mtrycrafts or anyone else is an idiot if the administrator allows it within the bounds of civil discussion here. Of course, by doing that, and the way you have gone about it, I have quickly come to the conclusion that a lot of other people here have probably come to also, and that is that if there is an idiot to be found here, it is guess who.....! That's right bub, just look in the mirror.
I think I have made a case for the arguments I have had in this thread. Say something meaningful or do not respond.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poss
You're missing my point. There is empirical evidence a difference exists. I for one can reliably tell the CD players in my household appart and the difference between them is not in the least subtle. It is true that my intimate knowledge of their sound makes me able to do that. Anyone with a little attention to detail could overtime identify differences in gear without a need for ABX. In most cases differences almost present themselves especially on material one is very familiar with. There's nothing scientific about this, only a matter of personal experience.
The only way of conducting such a test is setting it up in such a way that postulated (either theoretical or measured) differences are highlighted. Any other way will tend to obscure the issues the test is actually set to gage.
Selecting audio gear is no different but ABX testing is not very practical. Someone knowledgeable will look for added sonic performance not neccessarely based on price criteria. Price should only be used to define what one can actually afford and nothing more. I always take the stuff back home on loan for a week or so which is usually long enough to judge not only sonic character but also particular system matching of the said stuff. Most of the time I will use my headphones in the process just because it takes out the room/speaker variables out and it gets me more intimate with the way the gear in question plays my favourite tunes. Sometimes for instance changes could be really dramatic and if you're interested I could talk about it.
I tend to agree here. However some members of this board are awfully... shall I say... repetitive.
You can get excellent sound rather cheap nowadays. That doesn't mean better performance is not available out there and sometimes price doesn't even change much in the process.
This is the message you guys should pass along.
Peace!
If one actually has the ABX comparator, then DBTs are relatively simple since there is no need for another person to administer the audition. However, they still require some controls to be very useful.
Now, sighted listening aside, how do you level match if you use headphones? How do you know whether you are simply hearing level differences or not? There are ways of doing this, of course, but do you?
Also, do you use the heaphone output of your preamp or receiver or do you use the headphone output of the piece of equipment under test?
However, it still remains that sighted listening is not reliable for detecting small sonic differences.
One may develop a preference by using a piece of equipment. We have no objection to that.
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Your ignorance of electronics boggles the mind.
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Err...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat D
If one actually has the ABX comparator, then DBTs are relatively simple since there is no need for another person to administer the audition. However, they still require some controls to be very useful.
This is how I bought one of my CD players a few years back. I also used to be a measurement freak at approximately the same time. Not anymore... no time to play with the toys nowadays.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat D
Now, sighted listening aside, how do you level match if you use headphones? How do you know whether you are simply hearing level differences or not? There are ways of doing this, of course, but do you?
It depends. Sometimes my lazyness gets in the way but usually yes, I match the voltage output levels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat D
Also, do you use the heaphone output of your preamp or receiver or do you use the headphone output of the piece of equipment under test?
Very few sources have good headphone outputs. I only hook up to those occasionally but never if a meaningful result is to be had. The audiophile crowd may scoff at this but my main headphone amp is an old Sansui AU-999. The thing is almost as old as me (1970 I think...) but has new capacitors pretty much everywhere. At its time was Sansui's absolute nec plus ultra in solid state technology. Too bad Sansui could not keep up and too bad pieces built like this cost today somewhere in the wrong side of $5000.
Anyway to have a valid test one should keep the same equipment minus the piece tested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat D
However, it still remains that sighted listening is not reliable for detecting small sonic differences.
That's only true up to some point. I'm not saying more that if you own several CD players for instance, a little bit of level matching plus some reasonable experience in doing this could be a little eye opener. Try it, I mean seriously do try it. The skeptic in you could be in for a really unexpected surprise. I know I was. It could be really fun too...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat D
One may develop a preference by using a piece of equipment. We have no objection to that.
True. However if the level of performance is not up there with what I now had come to expect, no matter how expensive or exquisite the gear is, I simply pass. The real education to consumers is to actually help them out identify what they would like and how to go about and search for it with a reasonable chance of success. Cheap is not neccessarely bad and expensive is not necessarely good either. As with any other field it takes all sorts.
It is probably more rewarding helping people understand the issues than monotonously repeating the "it doesn't make a difference" mantra.
Peace!
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Mr. Poss,
I believe post like the one above show where the real ignorance lies.
It is probably more rewarding helping people understand the issues than monotonously repeating the "it doesn't make a difference" mantra.
That is exactly the point I have been trying to get across.
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differences
Quote:
Originally Posted by 996turbo
Mr. Poss,
I believe post like the one above show where the real ignorance lies.
It is probably more rewarding helping people understand the issues than monotonously repeating the "it doesn't make a difference" mantra.
That is exactly the point I have been trying to get across.
Semi rant...
The crux of the "nothing makes a differece" argument seems to be the following:
Measurements that are *NOT* all inclusive of a products performance (they leave out a lot of data/audible parameters, some of which are not properly measured at all)
Expectancy valence theory and bias "Oh that guy hears a difference because he expects to"
And volume matching.
I can say that given the same "volume" some components have a vastly different character than others. No, one is not likely to differentiate much within a narrow price band. But there is no doubt, no question, no argument that some components deliver detail that other components will not. I don't mean subtle, hard to hear things. I mean real definition, resonance, ambience, decay and such that separate HIGH fidelity from medium fidelity.
You can extract high fidelity from a mediocre product by modifying it with improved parts. There is no question about that. In a blind, or sighted test, whatever the circumstances, there are differences, and those differences do manifest themselves for quite a ways up the price chain. It does not mean however those expensive, and often overpriced components cannot be equalled or bettered for less money. But do not for a second think that $200- $300 will buy you a cd that is anywhere near as capable as a better player. The differences are not subtle.
The problem lies in listening experiance and often listening ability. Much like a good mechanic can listen to an engine run and determine what a certain sound means, a good listener can discern differences. The most reliable opinions from people I know, are those that are intimately familiar (read: long-term owners) of a specific setup, and they are sensitive to changes. Not some chap that swaps components each month, and doesn't spend a lot of time getting to know his recordings.
This is the day and age of convenient over substance, and instant gratification over attention span. Gone are the days when the masses appreciated classical overtures or even album oriented rock. AOR requires an attention span that is greater than the hip-hop generation usually has. If I had a dollar for every time I heard some teen comment "MP3 is cd quality" I could buy a lot of vinyl. Some people simply have no idea what fidelity is like, or how to properly listen.
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[QUOTE=Sondek]Semi rant...
The crux of the "nothing makes a differece" argument seems to be the following:
Measurements that are *NOT* all inclusive of a products performance (they leave out a lot of data/audible parameters, some of which are not properly measured at all)
Expectancy valence theory and bias "Oh that guy hears a difference because he expects to"
And volume matching.
I can say that given the same "volume" some components have a vastly different character than others. No, one is not likely to differentiate much within a narrow price band. But there is no doubt, no question, no argument that some components deliver detail that other components will not. I don't mean subtle, hard to hear things. I mean real definition, resonance, ambience, decay and such that separate HIGH fidelity from medium fidelity.
You can extract high fidelity from a mediocre product by modifying it with improved parts. There is no question about that. In a blind, or sighted test, whatever the circumstances, there are differences, and those differences do manifest themselves for quite a ways up the price chain. It does not mean however those expensive, and often overpriced components cannot be equalled or bettered for less money. But do not for a second think that $200- $300 will buy you a cd that is anywhere near as capable as a better player. The differences are not subtle.
The problem lies in listening experiance and often listening ability. Much like a good mechanic can listen to an engine run and determine what a certain sound means, a good listener can discern differences. The most reliable opinions from people I know, are those that are intimately familiar (read: long-term owners) of a specific setup, and they are sensitive to changes. Not some chap that swaps components each month, and doesn't spend a lot of time getting to know his recordings.
There isn't any "nothing makes a difference argument." No one says that. It is simply a fact that people often say they hear differences under sighted conditions that don't show up in a DBT. We don't exempt ourselves from that, and we likely perceive the same sorts of differences under sighted conditions as most other people do. Indeed, most people will perceive differences when no change has been made.
Some equipment does sound different. Speakers, for example, will sound different (although the order of preference under blind and sighted auditioning may not be the same). Amplifiers with high output impedance will often sound different from those with low output impedance, as this will affect the frequency response into most speaker loads.
I am shocked to read reviews of expensive CD players that are mediocre trackers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sondek
This is the day and age of convenient over substance, and instant gratification over attention span. Gone are the days when the masses appreciated classical overtures or even album oriented rock. AOR requires an attention span that is greater than the hip-hop generation usually has. If I had a dollar for every time I heard some teen comment "MP3 is cd quality" I could buy a lot of vinyl. Some people simply have no idea what fidelity is like, or how to properly listen.
Well, I am not sure that people in the past were much different in their attention span. Some classical artists/performers have vast audiences. Tastes and styles in music change, of course.. One thing that people didn't used to have were the walkman's. Many people, even teenagers, seem to have hearing damage from using these things. MP3 apparently can sound very good. Vinyl is a niche market nowadays, and I still like to play some of my LPs.
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Niche
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat D
Well, I am not sure that people in the past were much different in their attention span. Some classical artists/performers have vast audiences. Tastes and styles in music change, of course.. One thing that people didn't used to have were the walkman's. Many people, even teenagers, seem to have hearing damage from using these things. MP3 apparently can sound very good. Vinyl is a niche market nowadays, and I still like to play some of my LPs.
For a "niche" market, new vinyl outsells SACD 6:1. And there is a huge trade in used vinyl going on. Between 2002 and 2003, there was a 25% increase in vinyl sales. It's niche, but not *that* niche. SACD is niche at best.
And no, I'd say that the newer the generation, the shorter the attention span, and the higher the demand for convenience over quality. Vinyl is "too much work" for some people.
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