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"I used a laser range finder acurate to 1 16th of an inch. My speakers are as close to perfectly set up as I can get them now."
"Lighten up this is a Hobby."
This is not a hobby for you. It is an obsession and a compulsion. You need outside help and intervention. There is a lot more to life than audio equipment. There is no such thing as perfection in this hobby. When you boil it down to what is rational, it's just a stinkin' hi fi set. That's all it really is. Spend more time thinking about life and less time with this overpriced electronic junk. Give the people who have to put up with living with you a break and spend more time with them. Or maybe by now they are so fed up that they would prefer that you didn't.
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Originally Posted by Poss
There's been a lot of techno/psychological babble in this forum over years. As somebody who actually DID ABX testing at some point in my life I can tell that this "there's no difference" thing is completely false. Sonic character is sometimes so obvious you don't need no ABX to tell two components appart.
To make things worse, the premise on which the ABX brigade on this forum is starting their argument is the wrong, dare I say unscientific way of approaching the subject of Double Blind Testing. For instance medical DBT is usually set up to highlight the existence of postulated differences and any kind of similar testing should be set up the very same way in order to be meaningful. Whoever states otherwise probably had no experience in any kind of testing whatsoever.
Besides there IS one magazine out there that relies on a blind listening panel (not DBT though, but all levels are carefully matched) and measurements for its testing and reporting. They seem to corelate good bench performance with equally good sonic performance on most cases. Imagine that! What a concept!
Regardless, there is enough info out there that, while not 100% pure scientific, is credible enough to suggest there is actually a difference in sonic character between components. Further there is also empirical evidence that suggests that differences tend to dissappear as the level of real world engineering (or shall I say the actual amount of thought put into designing and manufacturing) in competing products gets higher.
In my not so humble oppinion ignoring all this without further investigation and simply dismissing it just because it was not the result of an 100% scientific experiment shows pure and crass ignorance. It is also contrary to most of the scientific or engineering principles I'm aware of. In the world we're all living on, empirical data is essential to R&D, thus essential in advancing technology (regardless of the field).
Finally this forum was a total waste of time 5 years ago. 3 years back was still a waste. Coming back this week feels no better.
While I totally disagree with the unprovoked attack that started this thread I can certainly feel some of the original poster's somewhat justified frustration.
Sorry.
Peace!
I agree that the attack on Mtyrcraft was unprovoked and incorrect. I apolagize for the manner in which I started I was just blown away at the severe lack of any prior listening to a properly set up system I was reading.The only way what he and some others here think can only be the result from limited exposure to different gear.
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"The audiophile can make out differences between equipment because he is obssessed with natural, uncolored sound."
People who are really obsessed with natural uncolored sound listen to live music. That is the ONLY uncolored sound there is. And you can easily tell how obsessed with music they are by the kind of music they listen to.
People who are obsessed with travel don't spend their lives looking at photographs and travel films. They pack their bags, get in cars, planes, trains, on ships and they GO. People who love music listen to live music and if they are really involved, they play a musical instrument. They don't settle for facsimiles made by machines from recordings. They see that for what it is, a poor substitute when you can't have the real thing. Kind of like looking at pornography when you can't have sex.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
"I used a laser range finder acurate to 1 16th of an inch. My speakers are as close to perfectly set up as I can get them now."
"Lighten up this is a Hobby."
This is not a hobby for you. It is an obsession and a compulsion. You need outside help and intervention. There is a lot more to life than audio equipment. There is no such thing as perfection in this hobby. When you boil it down to what is rational, it's just a stinkin' hi fi set. That's all it really is. Spend more time thinking about life and less time with this overpriced electronic junk. Give the people who have to put up with living with you a break and spend more time with them. Or maybe by now they are so fed up that they would prefer that you didn't.
You have posted over 500post here. I do not have that many post on all the boards combined. I have spent alot of money on my system. Spending a few hours setting it up properly is totally justified for what I will get out of it. Do you take a nice sports car and never get a tune up or the tires balanced.
What does it say under your name when you post?
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are you goimg to address my questions?
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
"I used a laser range finder acurate to 1 16th of an inch. My speakers are as close to perfectly set up as I can get them now."
"Lighten up this is a Hobby."
This is not a hobby for you. It is an obsession and a compulsion. You need outside help and intervention. There is a lot more to life than audio equipment. There is no such thing as perfection in this hobby. When you boil it down to what is rational, it's just a stinkin' hi fi set. That's all it really is. Spend more time thinking about life and less time with this overpriced electronic junk. Give the people who have to put up with living with you a break and spend more time with them. Or maybe by now they are so fed up that they would prefer that you didn't.
W
1- Why are you here if you do not want to acknowledge differences in cd players
2- What players have you listened to?
3-Is your system set up properly ?
4- What gear do you have?
What I do not understand is that if alot of you do not believe in equipment why are you on a website that by definition believes different stuff sounds different. If there is no difference get the cheapest $69 cd player and call it a day. If you spent any more than that why did you spend more?
I think these are reasonable questions. I have told everybody what I have heard and why I bought what I did.
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Originally Posted by 996turbo
I am having a hard time with this topic.
Seems pretty easy to us, you intended to libel Mtry.
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The point of my post was not to debate the equipment.
And you didn't, you threw out repetitive insults about Mtry.....
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I have heard a difference and so has every person who has been to my house. That is all the proof I need.
Fine, but different from what? Were acoustic differences between listening environments compenated for? I'd also like to know how this was judged, I'll bet there was a significant period of time that elapsed.....sorry, but our aural memories are rather short. So, you see, it makes it neither so, or fact.
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My wife has no psychological tie to any gear and she can hear a difference.
Having a tie(not not having one) to the equipment makes no difference.
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What I meant by resolving power may not be something you are familiar with. It is detail and resolution where you can hear minute changes in your system.
Yeah, I'm fammiliar with it, it's an optical term. Again, how do you quantify it? How does it relate to JNDs??? Can you anser that question, now asked for the second time?
-Bruce
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
People who are really obsessed with natural uncolored sound listen to live music.
Agreed. I enjoy hearing the wife play her piano several times a week. Was at the ASO two weeks ago and have tickets for early June. I presume you have season tickets to the LA PHIL. Would love to hear Mehta's Zarathustra live.
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Originally Posted by skeptic
And you can easily tell how obsessed with music they are by the kind of music they listen to.
I find it amusing that Zapped by Jitter calls me the elitist here given your "anything but classical is inferior" posture. While I share your love of classical music, I don't share your nearsighted view of musical enjoyment. I am just as moved and obsessed by Liz Story, Jean-Michel Jarre, Sarah Brightman, and Dead Can Dance among others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
People who are obsessed with travel don't spend their lives looking at photographs and travel films. They pack their bags, get in cars, planes, trains, on ships and they GO. People who love music listen to live music and if they are really involved, they play a musical instrument.
Or instead, they live a balanced life and do both. I listen to music virtually every day. As going to the symphony is a four hour process and limited to Thu-Sat, I would rather spend more time with my family and friends on a daily basis and still get my "fix".
rw
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Originally Posted by 996turbo
What I posted about him is just as rediculous as alot of his post.
No, what you posted was libel.
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I think what gear he has is relevant to what he thinks.
See, this is where you keep falling flat. It has nothing to do with what he thinks, what I think, or what you think. It has to do with what reliable evidence shows. Casual listening does not qualify.
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If you expect him to take home a high end cd player and hook it up to a luxman receiver into some radioshack speakers then of course he will not hear a difference. Maybe he has never had any really good gear in his house or ever listened to any.
And maybe you're just guessing here.
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I have been around audio gear for a long time the list of gear I have heard is very extensive.
And this is supposed to impress me? Is this supposed to make you a "Golden Ear"?
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Go over to the Asylum and you will hear from veterans in the industry. Those veterans will tell you in great detail what the differences are.
HAHHAHAHAHHAHHA, that place is a joke. They believe in every audio fairytail that comes along and is perpetuated by many of those supposed industry types. One of them, John Risch left because his wild-assed ideas couldn't stand up to real scrutiney.
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Check out my post over there and you will see that I am not a troll.
Maybe not there, but you are HERE.
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I am not saying I am the expert. What I am saying is that neither is he. We all must trust our ears.
Ah yes, the audiophile mantra. Your perception of hearing can only take you so far, and that is not very.
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If you have not heard a difference in one component to the next you must look at your system, your room, or yourself. Because there is a difference.
Based on what evidence?
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The general feeling I get from this website is that there is alot of low to mid fi
Ah yes, the ol' audio snobbery crap again. You're just guessing, aren't you.....
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If after going to a place like Goodwins with your 200 cd player and comparing it to a DCS on a very nice system you do not hear the difference fine. I will bet you will hear a difference. If any of you are in NC I will challenge you to come over with your cd player or RS cables and we will sit down. I bet $ you will hear the difference
Yeah, but you have to be wiling to set up the equipment in such a way that will allow for a DBT to be performed, none of this uncontrolled stuff.....
-Bruce
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Fine Bruce I have done it in the past lets go
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLZapped
Seems pretty easy to us, you intended to libel Mtry.
And you didn't, you threw out repetitive insults about Mtry.....
Fine, but different from what? Were acoustic differences between listening environments compenated for? I'd also like to know how this was judged, I'll bet there was a significant period of time that elapsed.....sorry, but our aural memories are rather short. So, you see, it makes it neither so, or fact.
Having a tie(not not having one) to the equipment makes no difference.
Yeah, I'm fammiliar with it, it's an optical term. Again, how do you quantify it? How does it relate to JNDs??? Can you anser that question, now asked for the second time?
-Bruce
If you will read my previous post I told you how we did the listening. I hooked 4 players up to the same system and spun the same disc. We adjusted my pre so all levels were equal and then switched between inputs. This allowed us to switch between players instantly in the same place and same song.
What I mean by resolving power is a system set up of equipment that has a proper synergy and where changes are readily evident. I am sorry I do not know what JNDs is.
Now how about my questions?
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And this is supposed to impress me? Is this supposed to make you a "Golden Ear"?
No I merely have shown that I have listened. If a person it to compare things and comment they have to atleast listened.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 996turbo
And this is supposed to impress me? Is this supposed to make you a "Golden Ear"?
No I merely have shown that I have listened. If a person it to compare things and comment they have to atleast listened.
Again, uncontrolled listening does not prove anything. -Bruce
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 996turbo
What I mean by resolving power is a system set up of equipment that has a proper synergy and where changes are readily evident. I am sorry I do not know what JNDs is.
Just Noticeable Differences.
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Originally Posted by 996turbo
Now how about my questions?
Zapped by Jitter is in the same "don't tell" camp as Mtry. He finds such exchanges of useful information as "traps" to his integrity and authority as an engineer with "exposure".
<a href="http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=19279&postcount=71">Exposure to what?</a href>
rw
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ok bruce lets do it. I sent you an e-mail off line with a number call it and lets get together and do it. I am not afraid. I have available alot of wire from lots of manufacturers. I also can put my hands on alot of cd players.
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Originally Posted by hertz
There is a big difference between casual hi fi enthusiasts and audiophiles.
You're right, audiophiles suffer from Audio Nervana Nervosa. :D
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The audiophile can make out differences between equipment because he is obssessed with natural, uncolored sound.
They say they can, but none has actually ever proven that they really could.
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I have been in this hobby for the last 15 years and I have a small group of friends who are like minded. Most of them including myself have bought their equipment after extensive lisening.So the buying decision is based solely on the SIGNATURE SOUND of each equipment within a certain budget.All of us do not have the luxury of dedicated listening rooms but I have noticed that the differences in equipment is much more noticable and evident when you swap components in a system that is setup properly in a dedicated listening room.
So you all convince each other of what you are hearing and your brain gladly modifies your perception to match.....
-Bruce
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"I was just blown away at the severe lack of any prior listening to a properly set up system"
You have no way to know if that is true. For all you know he designs and builds this stuff for a living. Maybe after a day full of it, he is just too happy to escape it for a few hours. What equipment you have does not affect how much you know or the validity of your ideas and neither does your credentials. That game is not particularly popular here.
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You are correct I do not know. What you have does not matter you are correct. In order to make a comparison though you must listen to alot of different things. If you do not have a revealing system properly set up there is no problem. We all come from different economic situations. But Join a club and you will meet people who do have that gear and then you can listen for yourself. If there is no club go to a boutique store and listen that is free.
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I am the first to acknowledge that there are small audible differences in cd players due to minor differences in analog frequency response. These are easily compensated for in the equalization of the overall system response. If you don't believe in using an equalizer or can't get one to work successfully for you, then you become obsessed with these minor differences which depending on the rest of your system will exaggerate or mitigate the linear distortion inherent in it. As for nonlinear distortion and noise, all current and recent models perform at levels where these characteristics are far below the threshold of audibility, audio geeks notwithstanding. Right now I need two more players in my house. I look for models with features I need and like. I need A-B repeat because that makes the players useful tools for musicians in my house to practice with. I also want a variable output with a volume control on the remote because many of my amplifiers and preamplifiers do not have their own remote volume controls. Right now, I'm looking at a couple of Sherwoods on J&Rs site. IMO, anyone who spends thousands on a cd player trying to get better sound is wasting their money. But it's their money so they can do what they like with it.
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Originally Posted by skeptic
As for nonlinear distortion and noise, all current and recent models perform at levels where these characteristics are far below the threshold of audibility, audio geeks notwithstanding.
All current and recent models? :)
Explain to me Sherlock how you have deduced this entirely without the benefit of direct experience or data to support your theory?
rw
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"We all come from different economic situations. "
I have said before and I repeat that I can afford to purchase ANY audio equipment made even the equipment with prices in the stratosphere. Why don't I? Because I am not a fool. I've watched one world's best piece of equipment after another come and go for the last 5 decades. Empire 880p, "The last phonograph cartridge you will ever buy." That was about 45 years ago. Practically everything you read about this stuff is hype. There hasn't been a truely new and innovative design in decades. The high end is a waste of money. You can modify existing and used equipment and get THE SAME RESULTS. Often, better.
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Once again what have you listened to and was it on a properly set up system. I invite you and all to my house and we will make a day of it.
I want specific brands and models
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Same silly arguement as the cables. They perform their functions as perfectly as you could want. There is no arguing with people whose money is buring a hole in their pocket looking for that next best in the world piece of equipment. And no matter what you spent or how good it sounds to you, it still sounds like a hi fi set to me. None of it sounds real. Not for the kind of music I like to listen to in the places they perform it.
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Originally Posted by skeptic
I have said before and I repeat that I can afford to purchase ANY audio equipment made even the equipment with prices in the stratosphere.
Yeah, yeah you have the million dollar house, etc. I've seen what million dollar houses look like in the Orange County area.
Anyway, share your thoughts when you heard all of the following speakers:
Alon Grand Exotica
Soundlabs U-1
Magnepan 20.1
Rockport Hyperion
Martin-Logan Statement
Did you really find them all to sound like AR-9s? (with your tweaks, of course)
Likewise, what kind of EQ settings did you use to make your CDP sound like:
GamuT CD-1
Burmester 001
Burmester 969/970
Mark Levinson 390S
Since you are so wealthy, you simply must have heard all these find components.
rw
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Originally Posted by skeptic
Same silly arguement as the cables. They perform their functions as perfectly as you could want.
I see. So the answer is "of course I have no evidence to support my sweeping statement" about CDPs.
rw
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And your arguement to the contrary is....? I suppose you will tell us you can hear a big big difference just the way the cable people argue. And you can attribute it to what? Less digital jitter? Lower harmonic distortion? Lower noise? Lack of gremlins? I admitted they sound different but when I change them out, re-equalizing the systems again so far always makes the new one sound just like the old one did. What evidence do you have to suggest that frequency response isn't the ENTIRE story?
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