How much difference does a CD player make?

[Wireworm5]

I been progressively upgrading for a few years. So to make my story as brief as I can lets assume that your system has the resolution to hear the difference of players at what ever system developement stage your at.

1st multi-disc cd player- crap, but didn't know 'til upraded to Panasonic Unversal dvd player.

Panasonic dvd player seemed equal to creative Audigy Platinum II computer soundcard with current settings.

Upgraded to Sony DVP-NS 975v instantly notice better sound than Pansonic even before settings were adjusted.

Assumed 975 was better than sound card, then I wired the 975 to both soundcard and receiver so I could switch instantly between the two. I then adjusted soundcard's settings to match the 975 and I could barely tell the difference 'cept I had a soundfield activate on computer.

$49 Magnavox dvd player vs Sony 975 with toslink, almost as good in uncompressed mode. Skipped on discs that Sony would play. Sony has better highs. Difference in sound marginal, price difference significant.

New Sony NS9100ES vs Sony 975- Bass freq. significantly better smoother giving it a warm sound. Reveals more harmonics from instruments and highs don't seem as sharp as 975, but I prefer the sharpness. Upgrade worthwhile only if your seeking elite sound.

Connections for players were all toslink 'cept for soundcard to receiver.

[Mr Peabody]

Wireworm, you stated you used toslink on all your players, all you compared was the players transports. Toslink is digital out. In order to hear a significant difference between players you have to compare their analog outs. Although I believe there is some difference in digital outs, it's not anything compared to the analog outs where the majority of the difference is made in how manufacturers treat the signal and can use better parts.

On the upside you either proved my point that there is some difference between transports or your in the same boat as me, we allow our imaginations to run wild

[Wireworm5]

I believe from what I read although I don't fully understand it, that the signal is going through the players dac.There has to be somekind of processing going on in the players even if using digital outs. You know you change a setting in the dvd menu you can hear the difference.
Perhaps its my receiver or that I have the digital outs on in my players. But I always find to my ears that digital sounds way better than analogue with the exception of my soundcard which I can't explain other than I can increase the wave strength with the soundcard.
Maybe its time for a multi-channel pre-amp? That'll be next on my list.

[Mr Peabody]

Maybe the digital receive some buffering, jitter control or clocking but it doesn't go through the DAC (Digital to Analog Conversion). The Toslink and coaxial are pure digital. I'm not sure why the digital sounds better unless your receiver has a very good DAC, or if you run it through your computer first, maybe that makes the signals similar. What kind of settings are you talking about?

Just set your receiver to a certain volume and compare the Magnavox to the 9100 using stereo analog out, you should hear night and day difference.

[Wireworm5]

I just done a quick experiment on my new dvd player between analog and digital. Quickly adjusting the volume to try to level match the output levels between the two. And I can't discern which is better, they sound the same to me.
On my player there is a sharp and slow filter in the dvd menu. If you put it on slow it cuts the high freq. over 20 khz. I can hear the change so it's processing the signal.
Oh, and the Magnavox sounded like $49 dollars in analog.

[emorphien]

If you're strictly using it as a transport, there shouldn't really be any [much] differences unless one is a real piece of garbage. If you're using the analog stage in the CD player to connect to your (pre)amp/receiver then it can vary.

[Wireworm5]

I think you missed the point of last post.
My Sony Flagship dvd player should be significantly better in analog than digital (toslink) if it were just operating as a transport with toslink. But when level matched I can't discern a difference. Which means either the dvd player is not as good as me thinks or that its not just a transport when using optical outs. The signal is indeed being processed digitally just not to the analog level of the dac. How it's being processed is probably DAC trade secrets.

[emorphien]

Why would you be using the DAC if the output you're using is digital? I know my CD player has a separate analog and digital stage.

Aside from some companies attempting to shroud their magical dacs in mystery, DAC operation is well published.

[Wireworm5]

I'm not saying it's going through the dac. Your making the arguement that using toslink relegates the player to just a transport. I'm saying the digital signal must be processed by the player and it's not just 0's and 1's coming from a disc. And digital sounds as good as analog signal going through the dac, if not better.


Aside from some companies attempting to shroud their magical dacs in mystery, DAC operation is well published.[/QUOTE]

Is that so?

Well I've just begun trying to understand dacs and what makes one dac better than another. It's pretty technical reading and the answers to question like this are not so easy to find.

[emorphien]

You have no reason to use the DAC (Digital to Analog Convertor) if you're using a digital output on the player. If you intended to use a CD player with an external DAC many would argue there isn't much point in shopping for a CD player with a good internal DAC, just a good transport mechanism and overall build quality.

I'm not saying understanding DACs is easy, signal processing isn't my forte either. I'm just saying that when the data is the binary message from the disk, there can be errors, but the question is how much error? And how does that affect the sound? It's different than when you convert it to an analog signal.

[Wireworm5]

Sure but how much money do I have to spend to get a dac that sounds better than digital?
I know my Yamaha receiver dac is my weakest link, but a high quality multi-channel pre-amp or dac is not cheap.
I think I'll just be an advocate for digital is better, until proven wrong.

[Mr Peabody]

You are not listening to digital. The digital is being converted to analog by your receiver's internal DAC. I wouldn't think you'd have to spend much to sound better than your receiver's DAC but you say it sounds as good as your Sony's internal DAC which is somewhat surprising. But CD playback isn't always given care when throwing it in a DVD player.

[emorphien]

Yup, it all winds up analog eventually because your speakers don't understand a digital signal. The DAC is either in the player, your receiver/preamp or somewhere in between (standalone DAC). DAC quality varies, as does DAC implementation. The differences between some DACs can be subtle if not completely below human perception, speakers and room acoustics are "more important" but a better DAC some feel is another important step in upgrading your sound reproduction quality. Depends on what you've got, your ears and the rest of your system. It's very much YMMV.

I've heard bad ones and I've heard good ones, but it wouldn't be the first thing I'd rush to upgrade unless i had a really old or low quality CD player. Sometimes how they handle the signal after the DAC is even more important than what exact DAC they've used.

[Wireworm5]

I'm going to try another experiment soon. I can play the same copied disc in my old Sony and New Sony at the same time since they work off the same remote and see if I can discern for certain that the new Sony is actually better digitally than the old when level matched.
My theory is that the new player samples the signal a couple times, upconverts in to 24-bit, and possibly converts it to dsd. But I read that it has to be converted to pcm because of distortion issues. Like I said before I don't fully understand the process.
Anyways it could be just the increased gain of the my new player as to why I perceive it being better. I'll let you know.

[jlamo]

I have been upgrade my dvd player several time from Samsung, Sony and finally Denon 3930. The most different from this upgrade is the video processing the sound is no much different as transport (digital) or analog output.

It is very different with CD player upgrade. I had used CEC 3300 for dedicated CDP and the sound was improve especially the soundstage and sonic compare with Denon or sony. Recently, I upgrade with CEC TL51XR belt drive CD player. This transport upgrade from magnetic to belt drive is major upgrade and it is imporve my system significantly for analog stage.

Last week, I just upgrade my CDP interconnect cable from AudioQuest US$70 to Wireworld Eclipse US$495. The treble and vocal improve a lot. I can tell the different from the first minute althought many people said upgrade the interconnect is not make any different.

Every upgrade from source, speaker, preamp, amp, interconnect cable even power cord/powerconditioner should improve your system noticeable. We just need wise in the upgrade as the improvement compare with dollar value (worth it or not).

[Mr Peabody]

JLamo, welcome to the board. It's good to have some one else around who can hear differences between gear and some upgrades. I saw you use CEC and B&W, what amp do you have?

[jlamo]

Mr. Peabody, I am using Rotel Pre amp 1068 and Rotel Amp 1075