Cheap DVD-Audio/SACD player?

[Mike Anderson]

Not familiar with that DAC, but if it can take a digital input from a CD transport or CD player, then it will definitely play through that DAC, provided that it can handle a 96/24 bitstream.

Yes, in fact it can handle 24/192:

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac1/

Some of these 96/24 tracks (such as the ones by Chesky Records) will downsample the signal to 48/24 before outputing digitally as a copy protection measure.

What DVD player are you using? All of them should have a digital audio output of some sort

It's a Panasonic DVD-RV32. As far as i can tell, it only has RCA analog outs, and S-Video out.

(if you use a PC drive, then you'll need a soundcard with digital audio output), and so long as the connection type is compatible with your DAC, you should be able to play the audio through your DAC.

Ah, now you're talking. I do have a sound card that outputs 24/96 digital; so I can just pop one of those DVDs into my computer and do it that way? Are they WAV files?

I'll have to buy a 20ft coaxial cable, but that'd be a lot cheaper than buying a new DVD player.

[Mike Anderson]

BTW, looking at the Classic Recording site; what's the difference between the HDAD and D.A.D. releases -- can I get a 24/96 signal out of both?

Also, do you know of any other sources for this format? It's a bit of a limited selection there!

[Woochifer]

It's a Panasonic DVD-RV32. As far as i can tell, it only has RCA analog outs, and S-Video out.

I looked it up, your DVD player has a digital audio output (obviously, you're not using it for multichannel playback right now!). Like most DVD players, it uses an optical Toslink connector rather than the coaxial connector that you might be more used to. Your DAC has a Toslink connection available. Just get an optical cable, and you should be good to go.

Ah, now you're talking. I do have a sound card that outputs 24/96 digital; so I can just pop one of those DVDs into my computer and do it that way? Are they WAV files?

I'll have to double check the media tags and file structure on those discs, but I'm pretty sure that they are not WAV files. These files are no different than any other video DVD, which have a layer of copy protection on them. They just allocate most of the disc space to high res audio rather than video. Keep in mind that you can't just dupe the files without using a de-CSS decrypting program (they've been ruled illegal, but you can still find them fairly easily on the internet), and even then I'm not sure what program you would use to output the digital audio out from your computer.

BTW, looking at the Classic Recording site; what's the difference between the HDAD and D.A.D. releases -- can I get a 24/96 signal out of both?

Only difference is that most of the DADs were released before the DVD-A format was finalized. Classic introduced the HDADs after DVD-A came onto the market. The HDADs are two-sided discs that have one side with a DVD-A layer with the audio encoded at 192/24, and the other side is a standard DVD video-compatible layer (playable on any DVD player) with the audio encoded at 96/24 resolution. Without a DVD-A player, then you would obviously use the DVD video-compatible side with the 96/24 tracks on them.

Also, do you know of any other sources for this format? It's a bit of a limited selection there!

Aside from Classic and Chesky, not a whole lot of other companies put out these open high res discs. This two-channel 96/24 audio spec has been with the DVD format from the beginning (DVDs must have EITHER a Dolby Digital or PCM soundtrack on board; most DVDs use the compressed DD format so that more of the disc space can go to video). But, not a lot of companies took advantage of it because they were waiting for the DVD-Audio format to be finalized (and not a lot of the record companies wanted their recordings to be released in this format because of their piracy concerns over any open high res digital format).

Once DVD-A came out, the market for these 96/24 discs diminished, because a regular DVD can only store enough data for a two-channel 96/24 track, while the MLP-encoded DVD-A format can give you a 5.1 multichannel 96/24 track AND a two-channel 192/24 track on the SAME DISC.

Occasionally though, you will see one of these open 96/24 discs pop up. For example, Neil Young recently packaged a 96/24 DVD with his newest Greatest Hits disc. Young apparently is a huge proponent of high res digital, and directed his record company to release his Greatest Hits album on an open 96/24 disc so that as many people as possible (not just those with DVD-A players) could hear his songs remastered in high res. I have that disc and the sound quality of the 96/24 disc is astonishingly good. The CD version that was prepared during the same mastering session also sounds quite good, but with that album, the 96/24 disc is the way to go.

Nowadays, you should look at DVD-A discs to see whether they include a two-channel PCM track on the video-compatible layer (all DVD-As are playable on regular DVD video players, but typically only include compressed DD audio tracks on the video-compatible layer, which are a noticeable step down from PCM).

DTS Entertainment in particular has been good about including high res PCM tracks with a lot of their releases. (They show the bit depth and sampling rates for each track on the package, so it's easy to identify the ones with high res PCM) And the sound quality of the 5.1 DTS tracks on those discs is also uniformly excellent.

You could also look at the DualDisc flipper discs. A lot of them provide "Enhanced Stereo" PCM tracks on the DVD layer, but the ones I've tried so far only include 48/16 resolution. The DVD layer has more than enough space to accommodate higher resolutions, but the packaging unfortunately does not tell you what resolution they used for the two-channel PCM tracks, and a lot of the space typically goes to video content.

[Mike Anderson]

I looked it up, your DVD player has a digital audio output (obviously, you're not using it for multichannel playback right now!). Like most DVD players, it uses an optical Toslink connector rather than the coaxial connector that you might be more used to. Your DAC has a Toslink connection available. Just get an optical cable, and you should be good to go.

Ah yes, you're right! I was bending over looking over the top of the machine to see the back, and didn't even notice the optical output because it doesn't protrude, but sure enough there is one.

Cool, well that saves me a few bucks!

Thanks for all the info Woochifer, you've been amazingly helpful. I'll let you know how it sounds.

[Mike Anderson]

Oh, one more thing -- recommendations on really good sounding 24/96 recordings are appreciated; I'll start another thread in the Rave Recordings section.

Thanks again,
Mike

[Mike Anderson]

Oh one more thing -- is there any way I can tell whether my machine is going to downsample the 24/96 signal to 48khz for a given disc?

And I noted on that Classic Records site, some (but not all) of the descriptions of the discs explicitly say the 24/96 recording is taken from the original master tapes -- if it doesn't say that, is it possible the disc is simply an up-sampled version of a 16/44 CD master?

[Woochifer]

Thanks for all the info Woochifer, you've been amazingly helpful. I'll let you know how it sounds.

Definitely do, I'd be curious to hear about your results with a high end DAC.

Oh, one more thing -- recommendations on really good sounding 24/96 recordings are appreciated; I'll start another thread in the Rave Recordings section.

Bucky Pizzarelli - Swing Live DVD-Audio version from Chesky
In surround, this is one of the most convincing "you are there" recordings I've ever heard. In two-channel, it's also an exceptionally well done recording. The video-compatible layer includes a 4.0 DD track and a two-channel 96/24 PCM track that downsamples to 48/24 when output digitally.

Alan Parsons Project - I, Robot from Classic Records
Impressively well recorded and mixed prog rock album that's been a popular demo disc for years; the Classic DAD is a clear step up from the CD and regular vinyl versions that I've heard -- only the Mobile Fidelity half-speed masters have the clean detail and depth that I hear with the DAD.

Neil Young - Greatest Hits
The double pack version includes a CD and 96/24 DVD; excellent package for conducting listening tests because both discs were done during the same mastering session; the analog sessions sound very lifelike, while the digital sessions that were upsampled from 44/16 masters sound less convincing.

Gershwin (Leonard Slatkin and the St. Louis Symphony) - All the Works for the Orchestra, and the Orchestra & Piano from Classic Records
This is not only a great recording, but a fine performance as well. This was originally recorded in discrete 4-channel for quadrophonic. This same performance was released last year on multichannel SACD by Mobile Fidelity, and I plan to buy this one soon so that I can hear it in its original 4-channel mix.

Muddy Waters - Folk Singer from Classic Records
Another very commonly played reference disc. The recording has a very intimate feel to it, and is a top to bottom great album from a legendary blues artist.

Hank Mobley - Roll Call from Classic Records
I would recommend any of the 96/24 DADs that Classic has done for Blue Note. The sound on these discs is tight and clean with raw and pure musicality. The Hank Mobley disc is my personal favorite of Classic's Blue Note reissues from a musical standpoint, but I would recommend any of them for pure listening enjoyment. John Coltrane's Blue Train is a also classic album, but the Classic transfer might be a bit hot in the highs for some tastes (Blue Note's own remastered version really bumped down the treble and made changes to the imaging).

Blue Man Group - The Complex DVD-Audio from DTS Entertainment
Can't remember if the PCM track on this disc is 96/24 or 48/24, but it's a great disc if you're into percussion. The surround mix of this is astounding in how well it creates a 360 degree listening experience. Other DVD-As from DTS Entertainment are also worth checking out (you can verify the bitdepth and sampling rates used on the PCM track by looking at the back cover of the disc).

Oh one more thing -- is there any way I can tell whether my machine is going to downsample the 24/96 signal to 48khz for a given disc?

No way to tell before putting the disc into your DVD player unfortunately. All of these 96/24 DVDs will be decoded at that resolution IF you use the DVD player's internal DACs, but the players will downsample the digital output if the disc has any copy protection restrictions encoded into it. (you might need to look over the audio setup options on your DVD player to check on how it handles copy protected 96/24 discs)

Another consideration is that some DVD players automatically downsample all high res PCM tracks before outputing the signal digitally. I know that the JVC player that my parents owned did this, but Toshiba and Denon models I've used will transfer the digital signal at full 96/24 resolution if the disc allows for that.

Personally, I wouldn't get too wound up about the sampling rate. Chesky and Classic take great care in how they do the transfers on their discs, and that should be obvious if you compare their DADs with the CD and even vinyl versions of some of those albums. IMO, that might have an even greater bottomline effect on the sound quality than the increased resolution provides.

And I noted on that Classic Records site, some (but not all) of the descriptions of the discs explicitly say the 24/96 recording is taken from the original master tapes -- if it doesn't say that, is it possible the disc is simply an up-sampled version of a 16/44 CD master?

Classic Records has very high standards for their releases, and they predominantly deal in 200 gram vinyl reissues. No reason for them to go with 44/16 CD masters.

My understanding is that they use the first generation vinyl version as their playback reference during the mastering process (they usually requisition a vault pressing along with the original master tape). One of the mastering engineers that they use is Bernie Grundman, and he's one of the top guys in the business. Whenever feasible, they also bring in the original producers and/or recording engineers to supervise the transfer, and advise on the original intent of the recording and any processing or EQ settings used in the original recording that need to be accounted for.

[westcott]

You can get a digital connection with some manufacuters like Meridian and Denon using proprietary connections and complimentary DVD Players like the Denon 3910.

Make sure that whatever you get, it has true bass managment for analog outputs, should these players be out of your price range.