Cheap DVD-Audio/SACD player?

[Woochifer]

Thanks for all the info Woochifer, you've been amazingly helpful. I'll let you know how it sounds.

Definitely do, I'd be curious to hear about your results with a high end DAC.

Oh, one more thing -- recommendations on really good sounding 24/96 recordings are appreciated; I'll start another thread in the Rave Recordings section.

Bucky Pizzarelli - Swing Live DVD-Audio version from Chesky
In surround, this is one of the most convincing "you are there" recordings I've ever heard. In two-channel, it's also an exceptionally well done recording. The video-compatible layer includes a 4.0 DD track and a two-channel 96/24 PCM track that downsamples to 48/24 when output digitally.

Alan Parsons Project - I, Robot from Classic Records
Impressively well recorded and mixed prog rock album that's been a popular demo disc for years; the Classic DAD is a clear step up from the CD and regular vinyl versions that I've heard -- only the Mobile Fidelity half-speed masters have the clean detail and depth that I hear with the DAD.

Neil Young - Greatest Hits
The double pack version includes a CD and 96/24 DVD; excellent package for conducting listening tests because both discs were done during the same mastering session; the analog sessions sound very lifelike, while the digital sessions that were upsampled from 44/16 masters sound less convincing.

Gershwin (Leonard Slatkin and the St. Louis Symphony) - All the Works for the Orchestra, and the Orchestra & Piano from Classic Records
This is not only a great recording, but a fine performance as well. This was originally recorded in discrete 4-channel for quadrophonic. This same performance was released last year on multichannel SACD by Mobile Fidelity, and I plan to buy this one soon so that I can hear it in its original 4-channel mix.

Muddy Waters - Folk Singer from Classic Records
Another very commonly played reference disc. The recording has a very intimate feel to it, and is a top to bottom great album from a legendary blues artist.

Hank Mobley - Roll Call from Classic Records
I would recommend any of the 96/24 DADs that Classic has done for Blue Note. The sound on these discs is tight and clean with raw and pure musicality. The Hank Mobley disc is my personal favorite of Classic's Blue Note reissues from a musical standpoint, but I would recommend any of them for pure listening enjoyment. John Coltrane's Blue Train is a also classic album, but the Classic transfer might be a bit hot in the highs for some tastes (Blue Note's own remastered version really bumped down the treble and made changes to the imaging).

Blue Man Group - The Complex DVD-Audio from DTS Entertainment
Can't remember if the PCM track on this disc is 96/24 or 48/24, but it's a great disc if you're into percussion. The surround mix of this is astounding in how well it creates a 360 degree listening experience. Other DVD-As from DTS Entertainment are also worth checking out (you can verify the bitdepth and sampling rates used on the PCM track by looking at the back cover of the disc).

Oh one more thing -- is there any way I can tell whether my machine is going to downsample the 24/96 signal to 48khz for a given disc?

No way to tell before putting the disc into your DVD player unfortunately. All of these 96/24 DVDs will be decoded at that resolution IF you use the DVD player's internal DACs, but the players will downsample the digital output if the disc has any copy protection restrictions encoded into it. (you might need to look over the audio setup options on your DVD player to check on how it handles copy protected 96/24 discs)

Another consideration is that some DVD players automatically downsample all high res PCM tracks before outputing the signal digitally. I know that the JVC player that my parents owned did this, but Toshiba and Denon models I've used will transfer the digital signal at full 96/24 resolution if the disc allows for that.

Personally, I wouldn't get too wound up about the sampling rate. Chesky and Classic take great care in how they do the transfers on their discs, and that should be obvious if you compare their DADs with the CD and even vinyl versions of some of those albums. IMO, that might have an even greater bottomline effect on the sound quality than the increased resolution provides.

And I noted on that Classic Records site, some (but not all) of the descriptions of the discs explicitly say the 24/96 recording is taken from the original master tapes -- if it doesn't say that, is it possible the disc is simply an up-sampled version of a 16/44 CD master?

Classic Records has very high standards for their releases, and they predominantly deal in 200 gram vinyl reissues. No reason for them to go with 44/16 CD masters.

My understanding is that they use the first generation vinyl version as their playback reference during the mastering process (they usually requisition a vault pressing along with the original master tape). One of the mastering engineers that they use is Bernie Grundman, and he's one of the top guys in the business. Whenever feasible, they also bring in the original producers and/or recording engineers to supervise the transfer, and advise on the original intent of the recording and any processing or EQ settings used in the original recording that need to be accounted for.

[westcott]

You can get a digital connection with some manufacuters like Meridian and Denon using proprietary connections and complimentary DVD Players like the Denon 3910.

Make sure that whatever you get, it has true bass managment for analog outputs, should these players be out of your price range.

[Mike Anderson]

Well I picked up an optical cable, and the Berlioz Reqiuem disc -- the only side my DVD player will play is the Video DVD side, so I take it that's what I should be playing to get the 24/96 audio.

It works, and it sounds OK - but not blowing me away. They could have gotten greater resolution by bumping up the levels a bit (it's too quiet), but that's typical of classical recordings.

Is there anyway I can confirm that I'm getting 24/96 audio? The Benchmark doesn't indicate what kind of signal it's taking in, only that it's PCM audio.

[Woochifer]

Well I picked up an optical cable, and the Berlioz Reqiuem disc -- the only side my DVD player will play is the Video DVD side, so I take it that's what I should be playing to get the 24/96 audio.

Without a DVD-A player, only the video-compatible layer will play on a regular DVD player.

It works, and it sounds OK - but not blowing me away. They could have gotten greater resolution by bumping up the levels a bit (it's too quiet), but that's typical of classical recordings.

"blowing away" implies that you know what the master source sounds like. What you might be observing is simply the limitations of the original recording.

96/24 resolution means that the noise floor is lower than with CDs, and one of the advantages of high res digital is the increased stability and linearity of the signal at low levels. Bumping up the levels does absolutely nothing with the resolution -- with uncompressed PCM, the signal is consistently at a 96 kHz/24-bit resolution no matter what the levels are.

Before you conclude that the 96/24 level is too low, you need to try the CD version for comparison. CDs are typically mixed and mastered with dynamic range compression so that they can maintain a higher prevailing level while avoiding the "digital zero" during peaks. No compression is needed with high res, and with the lower noise floor, all you need to do is bump up the volume on your system and you'll hear the music at the prevailing levels you want and get the larger dynamic peaks.

Is there anyway I can confirm that I'm getting 24/96 audio? The Benchmark doesn't indicate what kind of signal it's taking in, only that it's PCM audio.

Try the display function on your DVD player. It should tell you which audio track is playing. Some DVD players will also tell you the resolution of the PCM signal.

[shokhead]

I have a older cd and the olny recording info on it is DDD Digital which means?

[noddin0ff]

I have a older cd and the olny recording info on it is DDD Digital which means?

I think the DDD you see refers to 1) recording 2) master 3) media. On CDs the last letter is always D because CDs are digital. If the material was recorded analog and the master was made digital the CD will be ADD. If everything was done analog and then turned into CD it will be AAD. You tend to see the DDD's more prominently positioned on the label of older CD's because at the time 'all digital recording' was sexy.

[westcott]

You will never get 96/24 from SACD or DVD Audio no matter how you hook it up, analog or digital.

It really is a limitation of recording equipment, not the format.

Here are a couple of links I think you will find interesting. I think that what you discovered is that it really depends more on the quality of the recording than the format.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...udioSACD12.php

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...AudioSACD2.php

I would at least be careful if running a 5.1 system using these "better" formats.

Hope this helps.

[Woochifer]

You will never get 96/24 from SACD or DVD Audio no matter how you hook it up, analog or digital.

That would depend on the original recording. If it was done using that resolution (or a whole number multiple such as 48/24 or 192/24), then a 96/24 playback format will allow for transfer of the master without downsampling, dithering, or dynamic range compression, which is not currently the case with CDs.

You won't get 96/24 out of SACD because it is a one-bit format that uses a 2.822 MHz sampling rate. Not the same thing.

Here are a couple of links I think you will find interesting. I think that what you discovered is that it really depends more on the quality of the recording than the format.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...udioSACD12.php

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...AudioSACD2.php

Good links with good information, but as mentioned in the header, those articles are old and I think that they resort to some hyperbole to make their points, as evidenced by the "royal scam" implication in the title.

IMO, the primary benefit to DVD-A and SACD is that they afford a new opportunity to revisit albums that might have been poorly transferred to CD the first time around, to transfer newer recordings with minimal alteration to the signal (the downsampling process to 44.1/16 can purge a lot of data that was in the original source), and to finally let multichannel music see the light of day without resorting to the heavy compression that you see with lossy DD. The theoretical arguments IMO are moot if the bottom line impact of using high res is improved sound quality, irregardless of the primary causal factor.

I would at least be careful if running a 5.1 system using these "better" formats.

Careful? Agreed, but no different than with any other multichannel format. If you have a properly aligned and calibrated 5.1 setup, then DVD-A and SACD only need to be level matched to the default settings using the six-channel analog input. Getting to the proper alignment and calibration is a similar process that you would use to optimize DD and DTS playback.

[emorphien]

I've been happy with my Pioneer Elite DV-45A for SACD/DVD-A usage (primary reason I got it). I paid $240 shipped for a new one sealed in box off audiogon mid last year.

[Mike Anderson]

Try the display function on your DVD player. It should tell you which audio track is playing. Some DVD players will also tell you the resolution of the PCM signal.

Oh I see, it's on the TV - I press Display and in the audio section of the window It says LPCM 1 * 96k24b, so I guess I'm good to go!

I've ordered the Gershwin, Muddy Waters, and Hank Mobley discs, I'll let you know how I like them.

Thanks again for all your advice, you've been extremely helpful.

[Mike Anderson]

I've ordered the Gershwin, Muddy Waters, and Hank Mobley discs, I'll let you know how I like them.

Got the discs; I can indeed tell the difference between these and 16/44 CDs. The Mobley is incredible -- the brass is so realistic and in-your-face it's uncanny. You close your eyes and you'd swear there's a sax or trumpet player smack dab in front of you.

The Muddy Waters recording is also sweet; you can hear his fingers moving across the fretboard. Too bad they drowned it all in so much reverb, but that was the style of recording back then...

[Celtic Bob]

I just got the Yammy DVDS1500 player and hooked it up to my reciever via optical cable. It will only play the dvd side of a disc (Dual Disc) in PCM and not the 5.1 Will I have to hook it up via RCA cables to get the 5.1 mix to work?