cd versus transport and external DAC

[Ajani]

You see what audio magazines do to us good people? It's EVIL!!!

It has nothing to do with specs, but here is another interesting read..


http://www.high-endaudio.com/RR-FREMER.html#Links

LOL.... I'm not a die-hard fan of profesional reviews... I rate Stereophile and a few others mainly for their technical measurements... and I give their subjective reviews a modest amount of credit, because a) they have the honesty to admit that Class ratings aren't everything... Class A doesn't mean you will like a product nor will Class D mean that you will like the product less than a Class A product & b) It takes balls to claim that a $1K CD player is as good as a $6K one etc... But even so, I take their reviews for what they really are: JUST OPINIONS... some I agree with and some I don't... I don't think it's all coruption though as some take it to be... I guess I'm just middle-ground...

In the case of this article, I kind of agree with Michael Fremer... there was really no need to mention Fremer at all in the initial article and certainly not like that... If the guy has real accusations to make, then he should just make them...

[Mr Peabody]

Man, those guys sound like their exchange could have been lifted right off AR's board

[Bigmoney]

My set up has changed in that I have more properly placed acoustic panels and I now biwre my speakers. Also I changed my interconnects to bluejeans. My system, even while using the marantz el cheapo dvd, is not as bright already due to the changes I mentioned. Therefore, the 5001 doesn't serve the purpose of tame the brightness as much as it has already been tamed quite a bit. I have redefined what it is that I am loking to improving. That is, soundstage depth imaging and detail. The brightness is no longer a dominating factor in my system, I am actually quite happen with the more neutral sound I have obtained. Based on my new interests regarding a cdp, any new reccommendations or does the 8001 still win out. What about the cambridge player 640c? Keeping in mind I ultimately want to improve imaging what do you think?

[Mr Peabody]

Any place you can hear the Arcam 73t? This is the player I was going to put into my 2nd system until my CJ fell in my lap. Arcam very good.

I know it would be a risk because of no return but the used Conrad Johnson DAC's are your price or cheaper on Audiogon and even with some years on them will knock your socks off with sound stage and midrange. Their sound seduced me and still has me in a spell

[Feanor]

Any place you can hear the Arcam 73t? This is the player I was going to put into my 2nd system until my CJ fell in my lap. Arcam very good.

I know it would be a risk because of no return but the used Conrad Johnson DAC's are your price or cheaper on Audiogon and even with some years on them will knock your socks off with sound stage and midrange. Their sound seduced me and still has me in a spell

To tame brightness, I'd consider a tube preamp ahead of various other components. Older Conrad Johnson preamps look like good value for someone looking for the tube experience, (though they don't have remote controls). Newer ones, used, such as this PV14L, are compeditive price-wise with ARC, BAT, Sonic Frontiers, etc. For that matter, all these used tube units represent great value to the enthusiast, IMO.

[Mr Peabody]

The PV14 would definitely be a nice addition and has remote. I think it's more than he wanted to spend though. I'm not sure what the difference is between the 14 and the 14ls2. I found my preamp and exceptional value. It gave micro and macro dynamics that I previously only heard in very expensive solid state gear. SS may have an advantage in the extreme low octaves. The CJ does present a great sound stage with amazing depth. The depth may be something to get used to from using SS. With my Krell even subtle detail seemed to be delivered with the same emphasis where CJ may have it in the background more. I haven't mixed my preamp with a lot of other SS amps. I fed through my Krell integrated amp's theater input once and to my Adcom 5400. I know this may go against the "tube pre/SS power" crowd but with that limited experience I did not like the combo. And that's taking into the account that the "Theater Through" may not have been the same as a true preamp input and the 5400's weaknesses. The overall improvement with it on the front end of the Adcom was big but there's something I hear in the SS/tube mix that don't sit well with me. Maybe I just need the right combo for correct synergy. With this in the back of my mind I hate to make general recommendations of mixing SS/tube. When I have time I want to put the 5500 into my main system to see what happens. The 5500 being a darker background and not quite as bright as the 5400 may be a better match. I can also see how the Krell might not mix with CJ being total opposite, for the most part, in presentation. As you can tell I like the CJ sound but it is a "house sound" which also may make it more difficult to find synergy with other gear. With that being said I had the CJ DAC, which is solid state, in both my Krell and now on the front of my Adcom gear and it seemed to blend very well in both. So I suspect my problem is not so much the "house sound" as it is with an issue with my preference and the mix of tube and SS pre/power. I know many have done this and feel it was very successful but I wonder how many have ever gone the last step to try a tube power amp. Tube power has it's limitations, which are getting fewer and fewer with modern technology. but the all tube chain is quite nice. The largest hurdle is the expense of tube power to drive less sensitive speakers.

There are usually older CJ preamps in his budget price or less. Remote will depend on how old.

[Bigmoney]

I am a little confused. I thought the consensus was that a cdp would be the way to go in my situation and that DAC'S under a grand were not worth it. Also I just bought the rotel 1070 preamp per your reccommendation. Just confused why you would reccommend preamps when I just purchased one that I really like. I would like to keep my rotel amp and pre because I got very good deals and just purchased them. I am not looking to replace them. Are you reccommending replacing them already? I would much rather get a nice cdp that has the characteristics that I am looking for...........

[jrhymeammo]

Big Money,

Are you shopping in a used market, such as Audiogon? $1000 new doesnt get you much in Audio, but you can find some great used gears for $1000.

To tame brightness, I'd consider a tube preamp ahead of various other components. Older Conrad Johnson preamps look like good value for someone looking for the tube experience, (though they don't have remote controls). Newer ones, used, such as this PV14L, are compeditive price-wise with ARC, BAT, Sonic Frontiers, etc. For that matter, all these used tube units represent great value to the enthusiast, IMO.

I had considered entry level C-J Preamp, but their choice of tubes did not look very appealing to me.
Mr. P, have you retubed your CJ? If so, have you found any specific tubes that seem to work best?

I love Rollin'

JRA

[Bigmoney]

When you say a thousand doesn't get you much are you referring to cdp's are what more specifically.

[Feanor]

I am a little confused. I thought the consensus was that a cdp would be the way to go in my situation and that DAC'S under a grand were not worth it. Also I just bought the rotel 1070 preamp per your reccommendation. Just confused why you would reccommend preamps when I just purchased one that I really like. I would like to keep my rotel amp and pre because I got very good deals and just purchased them. I am not looking to replace them. Are you reccommending replacing them already? I would much rather get a nice cdp that has the characteristics that I am looking for...........

Sorry, B/m, I was going off on a tangent. There's nothing wrong with the 1070.

I was only observing that as between a new CDP and a tube preamp you might hear more difference, (and maybe improvement), by going for the latter. But as for your decission to go with the CDP first, lots of people will agree, including Mr. P most likely.

[blackraven]

BM, if I had my choice of the CA 640c v.2 vs the 8001, I would go with the Marantz. Its got better low end and smoothness plus the ability to play SACD. The 640c has detail and transparency with a more neutral to bright sound. If your looking for transparency then consider the MusicHall Cd25.2. When I bought mine I wanted a transparent CDP and was looking at both the 640c and 25.2 so I called www.spearitsound.com and spoke to the guys there and they recommended the MusicHall over the Cambridge 640c. You might want to talk with them and get their opinion since they sell both units. They may have different recommendations based on your components and sound. I know they wont recommend the Marantz since they dont sell it and they think SACD is dead.

In the end though, given how you describe the sound of your system, I think the 8001 may be a better match.

[Bigmoney]

hmmmmm..........when referring to transparency in audio do you mean clarity or imaging. I know the generic meaning, but what does transparency pertain to for an audiophile. I thin the music hall may be more what I am looking for. Also I have hear the cambridge units can be unreliable. As I may be purchasing used, I would not be willing to take the chance with a unit possibly out of warranty. Considering my goals, imaging, detail, depth, soundstage, neutrality which cdps stick out in the 300- 1000 range. What do you think of universal players such as thte oppo, denon 2900 and 2800 for and all purpose player. I think I may be interested in DVD-A or hdcd in the future. That is why Im asking. Also, I am a little surprised the rotel 1070 or 1072 hasn't been mentioned a whole lot. Both have received wonderful reviews. The music hall and marantz seem to be gettting a lot of attention, keeping my needs in mind, and sytem synergy; which of the two do you reccomend?

[blackraven]

Transparency is the ability to get a clear picture of the music. Transparent CDP's tend to have more resolution and clarity. Its difficult to describe and easier to hear. I think that CDP's that have a less foward sound tend to appear to have a more transparent sound as well.

I still think that the Marantz 8001 will match your system better. As a person who has had both the MusicHall and the SA8001, I think that you would be much happier with the Marantz. In fact, the Paradigm store that I just visited, uses Marantz CDP's with their Rotel amps in their showroom. Plus if you ever decide to buy some good quality SACD's you will be amazed by the sound. Now if you wanted to spend $900 to $1K, I would recommend the Rega Apollo or CA 740c.

The Marantz is mentioned alot because it is one of the true bargains in sub $1K audio equipment and it got a stereophile class A rating for what ever that is worth. It also had great measurements when tested by stereophile. www.sterophile.com Another benefit is that it plays SACD's.

The MusicHall is another bargain CDP at $540 from www.hcmaudio.com The CD25.2 is comparable to some $1k CDP's in some respects and great if your on a budget.

[Bigmoney]

What about the al purpose players such as the denon. Reason I ask is that it retails at 999$, but there is one on audiogon for 300.

[Mr Peabody]

If you want to try SACD in the future I'd pick the 8001 over the Denon. Especially if you are trying to avoid additional brightness. All the Denon players I've heard struck me as being bright on the top end.

The CJ DAC's used cost under $1k depending on model but were over $1k and higher new. That's why buying used you can sometimes get a good bargain.

Sorry, I forgot when I was posting you had just purchased your pre/pwr.

[Ajani]

hmmmmm..........when referring to transparency in audio do you mean clarity or imaging. I know the generic meaning, but what does transparency pertain to for an audiophile. I thin the music hall may be more what I am looking for. Also I have hear the cambridge units can be unreliable. As I may be purchasing used, I would not be willing to take the chance with a unit possibly out of warranty. Considering my goals, imaging, detail, depth, soundstage, neutrality which cdps stick out in the 300- 1000 range. What do you think of universal players such as thte oppo, denon 2900 and 2800 for and all purpose player. I think I may be interested in DVD-A or hdcd in the future. That is why Im asking. Also, I am a little surprised the rotel 1070 or 1072 hasn't been mentioned a whole lot. Both have received wonderful reviews. The music hall and marantz seem to be gettting a lot of attention, keeping my needs in mind, and sytem synergy; which of the two do you reccomend?

The Rotel RCD-1072 is a great player and probably your best bet for system synergy... the Marantz is the most critically acclaimed and is the least likely to make your system sound bright again... I've also heard the Arcam CD73 with your Rotel gear and was very impressed.. The Arcam is also well respected...

The thing is that you have a lot of great options in CD players, so it really just comes down to which ones you can audition in your system... Since your dealer has both Marantz and Rotel, I'd suggest arranging either an in-home-trial of both or doing an in-store comparison...

[blackraven]

If your looking for a universal player, consider the Marantz DV7001. Stick with the Marantz 8001 over the Denon. If your not too concerned about brightness then go for the MH of 640c but realize they will make your sound brighter slightly.

[hermanv]

The CJ DAC's used cost under $1k depending on model but were over $1k and higher new. That's why buying used you can sometimes get a good bargain..

I sold Mr Peabody my used C-J DAC, based on his comments here and in other threads I guess I should have asked for more money.

Seriously though, I was so happy with the outboard DAC results that I ended up with one of the high price spreads that got great reviews. I've never regretted going that route and I've heard many CDP's since. Remember regardless of player price, only a couple of people make the internal transport mechanism. If it wears out and you own a fancy player, you need to pay big bucks to recover.

With an external DAC spend enough money for your CDP to get some reliability and a decent looking unit, all the heavy lifting will be done by the DAC.

[Mr Peabody]

At one time there were only a couple transport builders but I'm not sure any more. If so, there has to be different levels of quality because good players like Krell seem to run for years were the budget players are lucky to make 5 years. I've had pretty good luck with DVD players lasting though.

I only took the CJ because I felt sorry for you It does seem to have good synergy with the Adcom gear. I do owe you gratitude not only was it a good DAC, it got me started on CJ gear. At the time I didn't think it as good as my Krell but as well as it did show against it, one would be a good buy for what they are going for.

[blackraven]

My first CD player was a technic's SLPJ1 bought in the early 1980s and it lasted until 1996. At least 12 years until the laser went out. It had a port for an optical connection even though optical was not yet available.

[Ajani]

What about the al purpose players such as the denon. Reason I ask is that it retails at 999$, but there is one on audiogon for 300.

Based on price alone that would be a good deal... but I'm not sure that an all purpose player is the way you want to go...

Going for a universal DVD player is pretty much like buying a HT Receiver instead of seperates.... For products of the same price, you trade sound quality for more features/convenience...

[Brett A]

Going for a universal DVD player is pretty much like ...

A sport-luxury car may be sporty and luxurious, but won't handle as well as a sports car, nor would it be as comfortable as a luxury car.

An on/off road bike will do both, but will perform horribly compared to a dedicated road bike or trail bike.

I universal player will play many formats but not as well as players designed for each of those formats.

[Ajani]

A sport-luxury car may be sporty and luxurious, but won't handle as well as a sports car, nor would it be as comfortable as a luxury car.

An on/off road bike will do both, but will perform horribly compared to a dedicated road bike or trail bike.

I universal player will play many formats but not as well as players designed for each of those formats.

Good Analogy... last time I used a car analogy to compare HT & 2 Channel, I used SUV V Sportscar, which isn't nearly as smooth as the sport-luxury V sports/luxury or the bike one...

[Mr Peabody]

Brett, did you get your stuff over at Spearitsound?

[Brett A]

Brett, did you get your stuff over at Spearitsound?

Yes, almost all of it. I'm about 45 min from their Northampton store.