cd versus transport and external DAC

[Bigmoney]

Ajani, what speakers are you a proponent of. You say you dislike many brands, I am curious as to which ones you do prefer. I plan to do some demoing when I get the free time as many places are not near me.

[Ajani]

Ajani, what speakers are you a proponent of. You say you dislike many brands, I am curious as to which ones you do prefer. I plan to do some demoing when I get the free time as many places are not near me.

My favourite brands so far are:

Monitor Audio
Mission
Final Sound (Electrostats)
Revel

[daviethek]

MMG's and a decent 12 inch sub and you are in mid-fi heaven. Your CD player dilemma will go away as you spend all your time complimenting your good taste in speakers. I tend to agree with the other folks who are talking about DAC's and CDP's. to get from a 5001 to an 8001 is a 500.00 jump and that appears to be the norm. Too bad the price point on fine players is around 1,000. I would have thought by now it would be much lower given the maturity of the technology. From what I have heard around here, the 5001 would be my first choice in a budget player.

I also agree on previous DAC statements. lots of Asian products in NOS and Upsampling gear and all very reasonable and a tempting way to jack the music up to another level. I think these cheaper DACS best serve mass market transports and multi-disc players. You may not notice much difference between that setup and the 5001 in net musicality except you will then have extra gear, connectors and cabling to worry about. ( this from a guy who likes to roll the dice with Chinese gear every now and then.) Have fun.

[Bigmoney]

I really am interested in the mmg's. But I wouldn't being true to myself without a few more questions about them. As I pay very close attention to my threads I noticed you reccomend a 12 inch sub with the mmg's wich I already have (crystalacoustics). Another post reccomended an inch sub or 10 inch sub. I wonder if mine would keep up. As others have mentioned the mmgs are fast. I wouldn't want to have to purchase another sub nor could I afford it. Many metion the mimaging is different such that a guitar seems to extend across the soundstage. That doesn't sound like the true image. How do mmgs image in your opinion?

[blackraven]

I have to disagree with a 12" sub to go with the MMG's, unless your planning on spending $1.5K or more on a non ported servo controlled sub. Plannar speakers are very "fast". And typically ported and larger subs do not match well with Planars because they are not "fast enough. Bass tends to sound slightly muddy or out of sync with planars such as magnepans. The larger subs have too much unwanted woofer movement. They don't dampen as well. Stick with a nice 8' or 10" sub, preferably non ported or servo controlled.
Thats why I recommend the Martin Logan dynamo for the the smaller magnepan speakers.
REL subs also work very well as do the velodyne spl subs and many other very expensive subs.
I used a velodyne CHT-8 with my MMG's and it sounded ok, as long as you kept the volume down and the crossover set to about 55Hz.( I feel that a sub should be set so that it disappers into the music so you cant really hear that its there). The MMG's only go down to 50hz after about 50hours of breakin. If you want heavy bass from a sub paired with Magnepans then plan on spending alot of money on a sub.

Don't let this deter your from the MMG's. They have great sound at a low price, and if you can push them out to the corners of your room a little, bass will go sound lower and deeper. And once you get hooked on planars, you will only want bigger and better planars. If your interested in the MMG's you might want to look for a pair of used MG12's.
They have much bigger and better sound and you can get by without a sub.

[daviethek]

Yes, please don't discount the MMG's . Tons of speaker for the money. Incredible presence, speed and musical timbre. I didn't even use those words until I had some MMG's I found them incredible for classical and jazz. Its hard to find similar sounding conventional speakers after you've had them in your system, they are that good. But, they are a bit different and probably not for everyone. They need more operating room than a classic bookshelf. I respect the opinion about using a sub less than 12 inch. Mine seemed to bounce favborably with the stats on my wood floors and many acoustic obstructions in my listening area, but in retrospect, maybe a 10 inch or 8 inch would have been more appropriate.

[Feanor]

I really am interested in the mmg's. But I wouldn't being true to myself without a few more questions about them. As I pay very close attention to my threads I noticed you reccomend a 12 inch sub with the mmg's wich I already have (crystalacoustics). Another post reccomended an inch sub or 10 inch sub. I wonder if mine would keep up. As others have mentioned the mmgs are fast. I wouldn't want to have to purchase another sub nor could I afford it. Many metion the mimaging is different such that a guitar seems to extend across the soundstage. That doesn't sound like the true image. How do mmgs image in your opinion?

I ran MMGs for quite awhile with my PSB Subsonic 6 sub with very good results. However I believe what is necessary for best results is keep the deepest bass (<80Hz) out of the MMGs. To do this, you a high-pass filter for the MMGs. The Subsonic 6 had a line-level 80Hz high-pass which worked well; i.e. feed my preamp to the SS6 and back from the latter's high-pass to my power amp. Of course I set the SS6's low-pass filter for 80Hz to complement the high-pass.

This approach is by far-and-away the best use of MMG and allows them to used to good effect with virtually any type of music.

[Feanor]

I have to disagree with a 12" sub to go with the MMG's, unless your planning on spending $1.5K or more on a non ported servo controlled sub. Plannar speakers are very "fast". And typically ported and larger subs do not match well with Planars because they are not "fast enough. Bass tends to sound slightly muddy or out of sync with planars such as magnepans. The larger subs have too much unwanted woofer movement.
...

I used a 12" PSB Subsonic 6 with my MMGs without integration problems -- see my post above. However I do strongly recommend an 80 high- & 80 low-pass arrangement with the MMGs. This largely alleviates the MMGs energy limitation with bass-intense music such as rock or orchestral crescendos, and ensures decent integration.

[blackraven]

I found my MMG's sounded best with the crossover set to50-60Hz.. I think speaker placement and enviroment has alot to do with it

[Bigmoney]

My sub only has a line level input therefore no crossover. Could I use an external high pass and low pass filter? If so, how do I do this?

[Feanor]

My sub only has a line level input therefore no crossover. Could I use an external high pass and low pass filter? If so, how do I do this?

First would be an purpose-specific sub/main high+low pass device. I have a Paradigm X-30 that has a variable low-pass filter and phase control for the sub, plus 50,80, and 120 high-pass filters for the output to the main speakers. Unfortunately Paradigm doesn't make them any more.

A second option would be a pro-style crossover unit such as this Behringer CX2310. This has lots of flexibility and can be used for bi-amping as well as controlling a sub. A down side is that it only accepts XLR connectors so you would need adaptors or hybrid interconnects to connect to RCA.

In the same vein but much more expensive would be an "audiophile" Marchand crossover.

A third, simple and low-cost option would be in-line filters such as these FMODs, though I can't guaranteed audiophile results.

[Bigmoney]

I would be more inclined to getting the purpose specific sub. Any ideas?

[blackraven]

I would be more inclined to getting the purpose specific sub. Any ideas?

How much are you looking to spend on a sub? Here are some of my choices according to price Mirage or Energy S8 for about $350. Its a great budget sub, i found it very musical. Any of the mid $500 subs from HSU, Outlaw Audio, SVS, Velodyne. The Martin Logan Dynamo which is one of my favorites for music at $599, the REL T2 for about $800 and the Velodyne SPL's for about $1K.

[hermanv]

Whether you buy a CDP, a DAC or new speakers, my vote is for used. Go to Audiogon and take a look. Many online reviews are available for anything you find. Read the reviews carefully, the better reviewers usually make sense and will have experience with a wide range of products.

Digital devices kept improving for years, I'd stay away from any digital product over 10 years old.

[jrhymeammo]

Nice ideas and suggestions above, but I think hermanv nailed it. If I was to spend another $1k on a digital source, I would not go for Marantz SA8001. I think it's a good player, but I'm starting to think their proprietory HDAM buffer is hurting its potentials. But that does produce their so-called "warm" signature sound. I would love to hear O'Shag's feedback on this, but MF Tri-Vista DAC21 is REALLY starting to catch my attention for round $800.

JRA

[Ajani]

Nice ideas and suggestions above, but I think hermanv nailed it. If I was to spend another $1k on a digital source, I would not go for Marantz SA8001. I think it's a good player, but I'm starting to think their proprietory HDAM buffer is hurting its potentials. But that does produce their so-called "warm" signature sound. I would love to hear O'Shag's feedback on this, but MF Tri-Vista DAC21 is REALLY starting to catch my attention for round $800.

JRA

My guess (and I do mean guess) is that the Marantz is just the wrong choice for your system (system matching is always key)... I doubt there's anything wrong with the HDAM or any other technical aspect of the player.... Heck, it's the only $1K player not to be downgraded to class B by Stereophile this year (yep even the mighty Rega Apollo got dropped to class B this year) and with this review comment for its Technical Performance, I can't imagine there is anything 'technically' wrong with it:

It may be affordably priced, but the Marantz SA8001's measured performance is beyond reproach.—John Atkinson

[Bigmoney]

Why do you say it is the wrong choice. That is funny because I just demoed the 5001 in my house yesterday and didn't particularly like it. Must have something to do with synergy.

[Ajani]

Why do you say it is the wrong choice.

Because he doesn't seem to like the 'warm' sound of the Marantz... hence it was the wrong choice for him...

That is funny because I just demoed the 5001 in my house yesterday and didn't particularly like it. Must have something to do with synergy.

I thought you really liked the 5001....

[jrhymeammo]

what Ajani said.

I am, too, aware that SA8001 is listed in Class A components by Stereophile, and it means jackshjt to me. You could very well be right about the Synergy, but I believe half of "Synergy" is established based on listeners' taste/preference.

[blackraven]

Why do you think that the SA8001 is the wrong choice? I thought he was compalining about the brightness and fatigue of his system. And I dont think the 5001 sounds anything like the SA8001. I've heard them both and I think that the 8001 is in a different league from the 5001. I've also experienced first hand what the 8001 can do to tame a bright system sound. It will also improve the low end sound of his B&W speakers as well as overall warmth, detail and clarity of the sound. The 8001 is not the end all of cdp's and its not for every one but it compares favorably to players costing well over $1k and is one of the true bargains in Hi-Fi today at $700.

I agree with your comment jrhymeammo, about listeners taste and preference. Thats why we have so many choices in this money sucking hobby of Hi-Fi.

[Ajani]

what Ajani said.

I am, too, aware that SA8001 is listed in Class A components by Stereophile, and it means jackshjt to me. You could very well be right about the Synergy, but I believe half of "Synergy" is established based on listeners' taste/preference.

lol... I wasn't trying to say that you should like a component because of it's Stereophile rating (many people don't regard professional reviews and that's their prerogative)... I was merely speculating on whether there really is anything wrong with it's performance (specifically the HDAM you mentioned)... And based on its 'Technical Measurements' there shouldn't be anything wrong with it..... I give more weight to the technical measurements in Stereophile than either Manufacturers claims or Stereophile's subjective reviews.... But if you don't even regard technical measurments, well that's also your prerogative.

So I was just saying that the Marantz was probably just the wrong choice for your particular setup (whether because of synergy with your speakers, amp, room acoustics or just personal preferences)...

[Ajani]

Why do you think that the SA8001 is the wrong choice? I thought he was compalining about the brightness and fatigue of his system. And I dont think the 5001 sounds anything like the SA8001. I've heard them both and I think that the 8001 is in a different league from the 5001. I've also experienced first hand what the 8001 can do to tame a bright system sound. It will also improve the low end sound of his B&W speakers as well as overall warmth, detail and clarity of the sound. The 8001 is not the end all of cdp's and its not for every one but it compares favorably to players costing well over $1k and is one of the true bargains in Hi-Fi today at $700.

I agree with your comment jrhymeammo, about listeners taste and preference. Thats why we have so many choices in this money sucking hobby of Hi-Fi.

Huh? Why do I keep getting asked that question? I was saying it was the wrong choice for JRH because he doesn't like it for whatever reason.... hence it is the wrong choice for him...

And I also agree with JRH's comments about listener's taste and preferences... and like JRH I include all of that in System Synergy....

I think my initial point may have gotten lost because I mentioned Stereophile, so I'll try to rephrase it:

I doubt there's anything wrong with the performance of the Marantz HDAM, I suspect the product is just not what JRH was looking for....

I hope that is clearer now...

[blackraven]

I was thinking that it was implied that it was the wrong choice for Big Money. Sorry if I misunderstood! BM was complaining in a post about his system sounding too bright and fatiguing.

[Ajani]

I was thinking that it was implied that it was the wrong choice for Big Money. Sorry if I misunderstood! BM was complaining in a post about his system sounding too bright and fatiguing.

Cool... no worries... I actually think the 8001 should be a good choice for BM based on the same things you mentioned... and if I remember correctly, he initially found that even the cheaper 5001 helped to tame his system... though it seems he's having a different experience with the 5001 the 2nd time he's tried it in his setup... I'm not sure what if anything he's changed in his setup, since his initial encounter to alter his opinion of the 5001...

[jrhymeammo]

You see what audio magazines do to us good people? It's EVIL!!!

It has nothing to do with specs, but here is another interesting read..


http://www.high-endaudio.com/RR-FREMER.html#Links