You guys ought to publish your theories!

[Siper2]

People can call chiropractic a hoax all they like. Honestly, I could care less.
Those who "disbelieve" in its effectiveness, or some of the things that they or other "alternative" (I always get a kick out of that) practices simply aren't interested in learning a new approach. I grew up on a medicine cabinet. I wanted something better, and found it. What people believe is irrelevant: this isn't theology. It's fact.
Before anyone says "where's the proof?" they really should do their own research.
Talking to people or groups who don't like anything but their own practices doesn't qualify, and that's what most people do for "research."

Hippocrates was one of the first recorded people to recognize examination of the spine as a window to health. So it really baffles me when a lot of "traditional" healthcare practitioners scoff at it, since they wrap much of their theory around his teachings.
That whole "Hippocratic Oath" thing. My point simply being that arbitrary, malicious slander will get you nowhere--if you want to learn, you have to investigate every angle.

Which is why I brought the analogy in, in the first place. Why spend eleventy billion dollars on cable, when you don't have to? When something very pure and basic will do the same thing? (Okay, so it wasn't a perfect analogy, but like you said, pctower, this place is a great open forum. That's why I used to hang out here so much. Always good for entertainment!)


I welcome an open discussion as much as the next guy, but honestly I really want to know what people think about the chance to bring a new idea forward to stereo/theater consumers.

It's not impossible or irrational, it's just not been done.

=S2=

[skeptic]

How timely. It was only recently that the BBC broadcast its program Horizon in which they took up "The Amazing Randi's" offer of one million dollars to anyone who could prove that homeopathy works. James Randi is not a scientist but a magician going all over the world debunking garbage claims like ESP and other supernatural and non scientific claims. The tests were of course double blind with rigorous measures taken to assure their fairness.

"Horizon takes up the challenge

Although many researchers now offered proof that the effects of homeopathy can be measured, none have yet applied for James Randi's million dollar prize. For the first time in the programme's history, Horizon decided to conduct their own scientific experiment.

The programme gathered a team of scientists from among the most respected institutes in the country. The Vice-President of the Royal Society, Professor John Enderby oversaw the experiment, and James Randi flew in from the United States to watch.

As with Benveniste's original experiment, Randi insisted that strict precautions be taken to ensure that none of the experimenters knew whether they were dealing with homeopathic solutions, or with pure water Two independent scientists performed tests to see whether their samples produced a biological effect. Only when the experiment was over was it revealed which samples were real.

To Randi's relief, the experiment was a total failure. The scientists were no better at deciding which samples were homeopathic than pure chance would have been."

You can read the whole transcript of the program at;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon...thytrans.shtml

There are also weblinks to more of this summary, Q&A, and a BBC interview with James Randi.

This is one alternative medical procedure that can surely be called a hoax and a fraud. Not my opinion, but a now established fact based on scientific proof. Want to disagree? If you can prove your point, contact James Randi. It will be worth one million dollars to you.

[mtrycraft]

People can call chiropractic a hoax all they like. =S2=

When you present them as being opposed to vaccination because it has 'chemicals'
nothing further needs to be said. They are out to lunch.
When Phil Donahue comes on the scene and denounces it as well and the gullible public follow him causing the resurgence of everything that we have eliminated, nothing left to say.

Pertussis was well controlled and almost eliminated until another idiot Justus Strum in Sweden comes on scence and and the rest is history, how pertussis is regaining a foothold in many countries.


Those who "disbelieve" in its effectiveness,

Oh, so one needs to believe? Sounds like a religion to me, one needs to believe.

or some of the things that they or other "alternative" (I always get a kick out of that) practices simply aren't interested in learning a new approach.


On the contraty, medicine looks at new approaches and discards the ones that don't work while believers never do, regardless of the evidence.

I grew up on a medicine cabinet. I wanted something better, and found it.

Good for you. Is that like picking a religion that you like better?

What people believe is irrelevant:

That is not what you are saying though.

this isn't theology.

You could have fooled me.

It's fact.

Facts are based on evidence, hard ones, credible ones, onse that can be replicated. So far, alternative medicine has not been able. That is why they are alternative, "unproven"

Before anyone says "where's the proof?" they really should do their own research.

No, you need to supply the proof. But I know you don't have it.


Talking to people or groups who don't like anything but their own practices doesn't qualify, and that's what most people do for "research."

No, of course that will not do. We need to talk to the believers and just accept their word? Sorry, that doesn't fly.

[skeptic]

"When you present them as being opposed to vaccination because it has 'chemicals'
nothing further needs to be said. They are out to lunch.
When Phil Donahue comes on the scene and denounces it as well and the gullible public follow him causing the resurgence of everything that we have eliminated, nothing left to say.

Pertussis was well controlled and almost eliminated until another idiot Justus Strum in Sweden comes on scence and and the rest is history, how pertussis is regaining a foothold in many countries.


Those who "disbelieve" in its effectiveness,

Oh, so one needs to believe? Sounds like a religion to me, one needs to believe."

Thanks to the idiocy of some Moslem clerics in Africa, people are being frightened to the point where they are refusing to have their children vaccinated and polio which was on the verge of being wiped out is now making a strong resurgence there. One more unnecessary tragedy to befall the people of Africa who suffer so much already.

[mtrycraft]

"When you present them as being opposed to vaccination because it has 'chemicals'
nothing further needs to be said. They are out to lunch.
When Phil Donahue comes on the scene and denounces it as well and the gullible public follow him causing the resurgence of everything that we have eliminated, nothing left to say.

Pertussis was well controlled and almost eliminated until another idiot Justus Strum in Sweden comes on scence and and the rest is history, how pertussis is regaining a foothold in many countries.


Those who "disbelieve" in its effectiveness,

Oh, so one needs to believe? Sounds like a religion to me, one needs to believe."

Thanks to the idiocy of some Moslem clerics in Africa, people are being frightened to the point where they are refusing to have their children vaccinated and polio which was on the verge of being wiped out is now making a strong resurgence there. One more unnecessary tragedy to befall the people of Africa who suffer so much already.

Unfortunately it doesn't affect those idiot leaders.

[Siper2]

mtrycraft,

Actually, there's a lot of proof. Again, it's a matter of people actually looking them up.

As for your claims of having to believe something, that is why I put "belief" in quotes, to state exactly the contrary.

Back to the matter of proof:

Vaccines alone:
- ammonium sulfate (can be poisonous to gastrointestinal (GI), liver, nerve and respiratory function)
- beta-propiolactone (some links to cancers, also GI, liver, respiratory, skin and sensory organ danger)
- viral DNA
- latex rubber (commonly known to cause allergic reactions, and that's only topical, not intraveinous)
- monosodium glutamate (commonly called MSG, it's a neurotoxin)
- aluminum (linked to brain damage)
- formaldehyde (embalming fluid, linked to leukemia, brain, colon and lymphatic cancers, among other problems)
- micro-organisms (not saying these are entirely bad, they're much the reason vaccines exist... however what worked for polio is STILL being used, and turns up on bone, lung lining, brain tumors and lymphomas)
- polysorbate 80 (has caused cancers in animals)
- tri(n)butylphosphate (kidney and nerve toxin)
- glutaraldehyde (birth defects in tested animals)
- gelatin (some allergic reactions reported)
- gentamicin sulfate & polymoxin B (antibiotics, with mild to fatal reactions common)
- mercury (one of the more poisonous substances known--minute amounts cause nerve damage... many cases of autism in children linked to mercury in vaccinations, especially in recent media)
- neomycin sulfate (epilepsy, mental retardation, allergic reactions vary)
- phenol/pneoxyethanol (antifreeze)
- human & animal cells (human cells from aborted fetal tissue... pig/horse blood, rabbit brain, guinea pig, dog kidney, cow heart, monkey kidney, chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg, calf secrum, sheep blood, etc.)

There are entire legions of parents getting away from vaccinations, thousands of whom have had children fall ill as a direct result of unnecessary vaccination, pushed by doctors.
Yet most parents don't know that many state laws allow for a choice.
Hundreds of children die every year due to these things. And it's not only them.... I was at a seminar once, where a former Marine went in to teary detail of the drug rounds he had to receive prior to going overseas in Desert Storm. He nearly died from the reactions.
Under certain circumstances, caution is necessary--however overzealous usage leads to what he went through.

The drugs and some symptoms are matters of public record, obtained mostly through medical research (from NEJM, JAMA and other widely-respected healthcare resources).
This particular list I copied down from a handout given at various healthcare institutions.
Tedd Koren, DC is a major moving force in chiropractic and the truth about some of modern medicine's failings. www.korenpublications.com

Honestly I could sit here for six hours and spout of sources, but I'm busy watching Law&Order with my wife. Good two-hour special. Koren's site is one of the most useful sources for objective views on things the public simply hasn't been aware of, unless they did a lot of digging on their own. (Again the comparison of bringing the information to the surface.. the cable analogy... As the thread's originator I'm obliged to mention that once or twice, I suppose. ) In the 1970s, the medical profession tried to debunk chiropractic in the high court, based on nothing but superficial claims that chiros are charlatans.

Naturally, they lost. Yet mysteriously never paid what they were ordered to pay. Interesting.

As for Koren, his information is definitely stirring, and has challenged structure for many years. He's been sued by several people, including the federal government, for similar unsubstantiated claims. They all lost. For the simple fact that the claims against him had no basis in fact, but I'd love to meet his lawyers.


Don't get me wrong, really. When I said that the medical system needs its foundations, I meant it. If I get run over by a truck, you'd damn well better bring me to the ER to get my **** sewn back on. I do take allergy medication when I really need to. I'm not an extremist by any measure, when it comes to this. Just a messenger for the obvious, which other people see as "false." Every healthcare field deserves its place. When they overstep their bounds, that's when trouble starts.

Chiropractors might take slack for bringing this info in the open, but they were just one of the only major forces to do so. If it had been a team of plumbers, so be it. The facts would still be there. My belief is this: any chiropractor who claims that they can indefinitely heal you of a symptom is full of ****. Usually, symptoms do subside, as the cause of the problem is found. They're one of the only remaining practices, in western healthcare at least, that has an ounce of belief in the body's ability to heal itself (which is rather what it was intended to do). You absolutely do not need to pop a pill for every sniffle.
But you sure as hell wouldn't believe that, based on the TV-loaded advertisements pushed forth by the pharmaceutical companies, who of course sell through doctors. More free media regulations might be helping their money-making causes, I have no idea.

I do NOT want all drugs abolished. I do NOT want MDs or DOs or whoever to be nonexistent. What I do want is some practice of good sense. Chiropractic was the first official profession to look to the spine for the CAUSE of dis-ease. Since the brain controls every function of the body, and its only pathway is via the spinal cord to all the nerve endings which touch every cell you possess, one would think somebody bloody well ought to be teaching preventative maintenance of such an important structure.

After all... dentistry had its share of naysayers, yet now nobody would even dare go to sleep without brushing, and visiting for a cleaning twice a year. And that's just a few external bones. Never mind the structure that maintains the entire human frame.

Now if you'll excuse me.... I have to go find out who those NYC lawyers are going to convict...

=S2=

[skeptic]

Do you have a screw loose in your brain? 150 years ago before we had vaccines waves of epidemics of diseases killed millions of people all over the world that are practically unknown today except in history books. Diptheria, Pertussis, Polio, Smallpox, Measles just to name a few. If someone can point to a handful of suspicious cases of the billions of people who have been vaccinated, what does that say about vaccinations? A tiny percentage of people die from drinking water but nobody is talking about giving that up either. NOBODY responsible in any government or medical association in major country in this world or in any international health agency such as the WHO would ever dream of suggesting that we give up vaccinations. On the contrary, they are pushing for universal vaccinations because they are effective at preventing disease. Only wackos fight this one. Give it up.

[mtrycraft]

Do you have a screw loose in your brain? 150 years ago before we had vaccines waves of epidemics of diseases killed millions of people all over the world that are practically unknown today except in history books. Diptheria, Pertussis, Polio, Smallpox, Measles just to name a few. If someone can point to a handful of suspicious cases of the billions of people who have been vaccinated, what does that say about vaccinations? A tiny percentage of people die from drinking water but nobody is talking about giving that up either. NOBODY responsible in any government or medical association in major country in this world or in any international health agency such as the WHO would ever dream of suggesting that we give up vaccinations. On the contrary, they are pushing for universal vaccinations because they are effective at preventing disease. Only wackos fight this one. Give it up.

You are talking to a closed mind. I am not sure what you are expecting to get from it

How about the quality of the public drinking water? Do we want to do away with all the chemicals in it? LOL Someone may be allergic to it. Some are allergic to themselves That designer needs to be fired!

[mtrycraft]

mtrycraft,

Actually, there's a lot of proof. Again, it's a matter of people actually looking them up.

As for your claims of having to believe something, that is why I put "belief" in quotes, to state exactly the contrary.

Back to the matter of proof:

Vaccines alone:
- ammonium sulfate (can be poisonous to gastrointestinal (GI), liver, nerve and respiratory function)
- beta-propiolactone (some links to cancers, also GI, liver, respiratory, skin and sensory organ danger)
- viral DNA
- latex rubber (commonly known to cause allergic reactions, and that's only topical, not intraveinous)
- monosodium glutamate (commonly called MSG, it's a neurotoxin)
- aluminum (linked to brain damage)
- formaldehyde (embalming fluid, linked to leukemia, brain, colon and lymphatic cancers, among other problems)
- micro-organisms (not saying these are entirely bad, they're much the reason vaccines exist... however what worked for polio is STILL being used, and turns up on bone, lung lining, brain tumors and lymphomas)
- polysorbate 80 (has caused cancers in animals)
- tri(n)butylphosphate (kidney and nerve toxin)
- glutaraldehyde (birth defects in tested animals)
- gelatin (some allergic reactions reported)
- gentamicin sulfate & polymoxin B (antibiotics, with mild to fatal reactions common)
- mercury (one of the more poisonous substances known--minute amounts cause nerve damage... many cases of autism in children linked to mercury in vaccinations, especially in recent media)
- neomycin sulfate (epilepsy, mental retardation, allergic reactions vary)
- phenol/pneoxyethanol (antifreeze)
- human & animal cells (human cells from aborted fetal tissue... pig/horse blood, rabbit brain, guinea pig, dog kidney, cow heart, monkey kidney, chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg, calf secrum, sheep blood, etc.)


You offer no proof. Media reports are nothing more than testimonials unless you have actual Journal citations in them, credible ones.


There are entire legions of parents getting away from vaccinations,

Proof of gullibility, mass hysteria, stupidness.

thousands of whom have had children fall ill as a direct result of unnecessary vaccination, pushed by doctors.

Thousands of children fall ill. You have no proof of your cause and effect. Perhaps coffeee should be banned. After all, how many drivers in car accidents had coffeee that morning?

Yet most parents don't know that many state laws allow for a choice.

Proves nothing except ignorance.


Hundreds of children die every year due to these things.

Prove it. Thousands die in cars, swimming pools, homes, etc.

I was at a seminar once, where a former Marine went in to teary detail of the drug rounds he had to receive prior to going overseas in Desert Storm. He nearly died from the reactions.

Maybe he did. Maybe it was something else? So you throw out the baby with the bathwater?


Under certain circumstances, caution is necessary--however overzealous usage leads to what he went through.


Most likely. So you do the above?

The drugs and some symptoms are matters of public record, obtained mostly through medical research (from NEJM, JAMA and other widely-respected healthcare resources).

I suppose then you don't have anyone use it because there are known side effects? How about the side effect of no vaccination? Dying of the desease?




This particular list I copied down from a handout given at various healthcare institutions.
Tedd Koren, DC is a major moving force in chiropractic and the truth about some of modern medicine's failings. www.korenpublications.com

So he is a reliable source? Based on what research? Holistic research?

Honestly I could sit here for six hours and spout of sources,


And that would make your last citation better than the first one? Oh, yes, the first is not worth the paper it was typped on.

but I'm busy watching Law&Order with my wife. Good two-hour special.

Please enjoy it. That is more worthwhile than this.


Koren's site is one of the most useful sources for objective views on things the public simply hasn't been aware of, unless they did a lot of digging on their own.


Well, that is your biased opinion, of course as you accept it, hook line and sinker.

In the 1970s, the medical profession tried to debunk chiropractic in the high court, based on nothing but superficial claims that chiros are charlatans.

Depends on what they preach. Childrens spinal manipulation, anti vaccination, anything similar, then the shoe fits.


Naturally, they lost.


I seriously doubt this whole account of the issue. Citations please. I would be interested how the truth gets distorted.


As for Koren, his information is definitely stirring, and has challenged structure for many years.

Of course. That is why he is still an alternative issue.

He's been sued by several people, including the federal government, for similar unsubstantiated claims. They all lost.

That is his story of course.

For the simple fact that the claims against him had no basis in fact, but I'd love to meet his lawyers.

LOL. No basis in fact


If I get run over by a truck, you'd damn well better bring me to the ER to get my **** sewn back on.

Why? Can't a chiro fix you up?

I do take allergy medication when I really need to.

Oh, cannot be met by a chiro or homeopathic medication? Doesn't work?

I'm not an extremist by any measure, when it comes to this.


You just pick and choose untill you need the real mccoy, right?

Just a messenger for the obvious,


No, a messenger for the unproven, unsupportable.

Every healthcare field deserves its place.

Yes, and chiro over steps its boundary all the time because their boundary is so restrictive otherwise.


Chiropractors might take slack for bringing this info in the open, but they were just one of the only major forces to do so.


No different from the audio guys


If it had been a team of plumbers, so be it. The facts would still be there.

No facts there for either.

My belief is this:

Belief? Or you know?

Usually, symptoms do subside, as the cause of the problem is found.


Many go away by itself, such as a cold symptom when it runs its course, right?

They're one of the only remaining practices, in western healthcare at least, that has an ounce of belief in the body's ability to heal itself (which is rather what it was intended to do).

How do you know what was intended to do? Were you on the design team?
Yes, colds do go away by itself. Some cancers go to remission too, etc.


You absolutely do not need to pop a pill for every sniffle.


You are right. But it is the 21st century and an society of instant this, instant that.


But you sure as hell wouldn't believe that, based on the TV-loaded advertisements pushed forth by the pharmaceutical companies, who of course sell through doctors.

Oh, please. You mean this business practice is unique to medicine?


Chiropractic was the first official profession to look to the spine for the CAUSE of dis-ease.

That is unfortunate.

Since the brain controls every function of the body, and its only pathway is via the spinal cord to all the nerve endings which touch every cell you possess, one would think somebody bloody well ought to be teaching preventative maintenance of such an important structure.

Of course, if you believe this is necessary. Would be better if one knew for a fact.

After all... dentistry had its share of naysayers, yet now nobody would even dare go to sleep without brushing, and visiting for a cleaning twice a year.

Flouride has nothing to do with kids having zero cavities? Why twice a year? No more drilling, got to make it up some other way, right?

And that's just a few external bones. Never mind the structure that maintains the entire human frame.

Yes, of course, it is the spines fault. All those stupid doctors.