Wire is no Wire: The proof? You decide!

[markw]

Usually you would not admit that length, guage or construction would give any audiable difference yet now you question it.

Nobody ever said "wire is wire and it all sounds the same". That's a sound byte manufactured by those that disagree with a basic premise which stattes that wire/cable of similar gauge length and construction are so similar in sound qualities that it causes thus discussion in the first place.

There can easily be differences between different lengths and construction of wires/cable that can affect sound. i.e... 50 feet of 24 gauge speaker cable will most likely sound different thant 10 feet of 12 gauge cable.

If one is comparing apples to oranges, then the results should be questioned.

Actually, my money is on acceptable production variances between the two units.

[Sealed]

The problem with this argument (as stated above) is that there is not complete evidence for either claim.

When someone did an a/b/x exactly what source(s) were used, and exactly what recording, and what speakers? Any one of those items can cause variances on other systems -or- provide an irrelevent signal -or- lack the ability to discern differences.

Cables made form different companies are going to measure differences. Even small differences can manifest themselves audibly. No matter what I use, it it always well insulated, constructed and .2 ohms or less. Anything more and you might get audible impedence problems.

Some high end gear is finicky and will react badly to certain cables. Models of Threshold stasis amps would go into HF oscillations with some cables.

I am convinced, beyond any shadow of a doubt cables can and do make a difference. I completely dismiss any, and all evidence to the contrary. None of it is complete or conclusive.

While this thread goes on, throughout the end of time, I can and have heard differences because my system has exceptional components, I have excellent hearing, and don't need anyone to tell me what is/is not audible based on some testing I wasn't part of.

[Rikki]

While this thread goes on, throughout the end of time...

The thread can't go on throughout the end of time. There is a finitie number of hard drive / database space on the server, and I'm sure the message board software could only handle a billion or so replys to the thread. Even if the message board software could handle 1 billion+ threads, your bandwidth (cable modem, DSL, T1, dialup,etc.) would not be able to handle bringing them all back.

[Rikki]

Just because I can or can not hear a difference in cables in my system may not necessarily predict whether someone else will hear or will not hear a difference in cables in their system

True, but should I still spend money on the cables if I can't hear a difference ?

[Sealed]

The thread can't go on throughout the end of time. There is a finitie number of hard drive / database space on the server, and I'm sure the message board software could only handle a billion or so replys to the thread. Even if the message board software could handle 1 billion+ threads, your bandwidth (cable modem, DSL, T1, dialup,etc.) would not be able to handle bringing them all back.

You are just saying that to cheer me up... but this topic will inhale more bandwidth and drive space and probably continue until there is no more space left.

OTOH, maybe you should brush up on terms such as irony, fecetious, rhetoric and the like. Understanding such concepts will eliminate the need for your pedantic explanations of the obvious.

[pctower]

True, but should I still spend money on the cables if I can't hear a difference ?

HOLY COW!

Who ever suggested that you should?

[pctower]

You never heard of CD with the same title having different EQ applied to it? It happens and one doesn't know when in th epressing a new one is introduced. No, I don't have titles for you. People in the know know.

"People in the know know." In the face of such difinitive authority, who am I to question?

[Rikki]

OTOH, maybe you should brush up on terms such as irony, fecetious, rhetoric and the like. Understanding such concepts will eliminate the need for your pedantic explanations of the obvious.

I'll brush up on those terms if you look up "sarcasim". You'll find it under s

[Rikki]

HOLY COW!

Correction, it should read HOLY COW! BATMAN!!

[Swerd]

bturk

Unlike so many others here, you actually performed a test. That’s a great start. I wish others would do the same.

Several things that you did well:
From your description it sounds like you did a single-blind test. There were several posts criticizing you because it wasn’t a double-blind test. This is not a real problem (see more below).

Two of your listeners did not own hifi systems and none of them fit your idea of being audiophiles. Good. Usually yeasayers criticize a listening test unless it is done with experienced audiophiles or even other yeasayers. I say, test all kinds of listeners and see if there is any difference due their prior experience. Certainly the boom box owners may lack any prior exposure to the issue of whether cables make a difference, but maybe not.

It doesn’t really matter whether your test is single- or double-blind as long as you do several control tests to account for or minimize the possibility of bias. For example, did you tell your four listeners in advance the real reason why you were doing the test - to test for audible differences in interconnects? Or did you disguise your intent? From your previous posts on this forum you have made your beliefs about cables very clear. Your friends may have been playing along with you, intentionally or subconsciously. Try eliminate that possibility.

Could your listeners tell which CD player/interconnect combination they were hearing when you switched your preamp back and forth? If so, find a way to hide that information from them. One way to control for bias in a single-blind test is to use several different testers, just like the way gambling casinos keep switching blackjack dealers. If the results do not vary with the different testers, then you will have more confidence that your methods did not introduce unintended bias. Did you test yourself while one of your other listeners performed the switches?

Several things you did not do, but could easily do:
Do a negative control test. Use the same set up but with two identical interconnects. What do your listeners hear? Do they always report them as identical? If they don’t, you should subtract the frequency of false positive reports from the frequency of positive test results. In your test you said 4 out of 4 listeners reported hearing a difference. If 2 out of 4 also report hearing differences in the negative control test, then your corrected results would be 2 out of 4 could hear a difference.

Check the two CD players to see if their output levels are indeed identical. Many listening tests have confirmed that listeners prefer the louder of two sound sources. Small differences in dB may cause this. Check the voltage output from the CD players. Find a way to adjust them to identical voltages. If this is not possible you can also repeat the test after switching the interconnects from one CD player to the other. Do the differences that your listeners report vary with the interconnect cables or the CD players?

Similarly, the possibility exists that the two CDs were not identical. It may be hard to directly measure any possible differences, but you don’t have to - just switch CDs from one player to another and test again.

If you take these kinds of extra efforts, you can attach broader conclusion to your results, and you may actually convince some of the skeptics here (myself included) that you are on to something. You may also find that it is much harder to keep your listeners consistently attentive during all these tedious tests. When I tried doing similar tests, most people reacted by saying this is like listening to paint dry!

[okiemax]

sorry, but what does DBT stand for ?

As you already know from the other posts, DBT or double-blind testing reduces the possibility of bias being introduced by researchers who conduct the test. Triple-blind testing goes even farther and reduces the possibility of bias by those who tabulate and analyze the data from the test. I am not aware any triple-blind test on cables. Because of the possibility of bias and other issues affecting the validity of blinded testing, I do not agree with others on this Forum who say the DBT is the gold standard of cable testing.

You also should know that blinded terminlogy is not precise and can be ambiguous. An article titled "Physician Interpretations and Textbook Definitions of Blinding Terminology in Randomized Controlled Trials" in the April 18, 2001 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) discusses this problem, and goes so far as to recommend that terms such as double-blinded be abandoned and replaced with descriptions of who was blinded for the purpose of the test. An excerpt from the JAMA article is shown below:

"Our study has demonstrated enormous ambiguity in the conventional ways of describing blinding. Our results suggest that authors and journal editors should abandon the terms single, double, and triple blind, and substitute descriptions stating which of the relevant groups were unaware of allocation. This change in reporting would be consistent with the Consolidated Standards of Reporting Trials (CONSORT) statement, which calls for reporting of the blinding status of the specific groups involved in RCTs.39 As long as journal reports of RCTs include the term "double blind," clinicians will risk inaccurate inferences about the validity of the studies on which they base their clinical practice."

[DMK]

When blind tests are performed and there is a null outcome, yeasayers blame either the equipment or the test. When blind tests are performed and there is a positive outcome, naysayers blame either the equipment or the test.

Do cables make a difference? That's up to the individual to decide. It's bias either way - the bias of believing science has explained everything about cable sonics or the bias that comes with sighted listening. Those who believe the former will never believe the latter and vice versa. Find the camp that makes you comfortable and go with it.

Phil Tower has the right idea. He makes no bones about not using the scientific method but simply chooses what cables or components give him a subjectively improved experience. Mtrycrafts has the right idea. He follows the scientific method and derives his enjoyment from cables and components that measure well.

If you must perform blind tests to confirm or deny your beliefs, go right ahead. But they are a waste of time in my opinion if your intent is to convince anyone but yourself. And years later, you might find that they perhaps shouldn't have convinced YOU, either!

[okiemax]

bturk

Unlike so many others here, you actually performed a test. That’s a great start. I wish others would do the same.

Several things that you did well:
From your description it sounds like you did a single-blind test. There were several posts criticizing you because it wasn’t a double-blind test. This is not a real problem (see more below).

Two of your listeners did not own hifi systems and none of them fit your idea of being audiophiles. Good. Usually yeasayers criticize a listening test unless it is done with experienced audiophiles or even other yeasayers. I say, test all kinds of listeners and see if there is any difference due their prior experience. Certainly the boom box owners may lack any prior exposure to the issue of whether cables make a difference, but maybe not.

It doesn’t really matter whether your test is single- or double-blind as long as you do several control tests to account for or minimize the possibility of bias. For example, did you tell your four listeners in advance the real reason why you were doing the test - to test for audible differences in interconnects? Or did you disguise your intent? From your previous posts on this forum you have made your beliefs about cables very clear. Your friends may have been playing along with you, intentionally or subconsciously. Try eliminate that possibility.

Could your listeners tell which CD player/interconnect combination they were hearing when you switched your preamp back and forth? If so, find a way to hide that information from them. One way to control for bias in a single-blind test is to use several different testers, just like the way gambling casinos keep switching blackjack dealers. If the results do not vary with the different testers, then you will have more confidence that your methods did not introduce unintended bias. Did you test yourself while one of your other listeners performed the switches?

Several things you did not do, but could easily do:
Do a negative control test. Use the same set up but with two identical interconnects. What do your listeners hear? Do they always report them as identical? If they don’t, you should subtract the frequency of false positive reports from the frequency of positive test results. In your test you said 4 out of 4 listeners reported hearing a difference. If 2 out of 4 also report hearing differences in the negative control test, then your corrected results would be 2 out of 4 could hear a difference.

Check the two CD players to see if their output levels are indeed identical. Many listening tests have confirmed that listeners prefer the louder of two sound sources. Small differences in dB may cause this. Check the voltage output from the CD players. Find a way to adjust them to identical voltages. If this is not possible you can also repeat the test after switching the interconnects from one CD player to the other. Do the differences that your listeners report vary with the interconnect cables or the CD players?

Similarly, the possibility exists that the two CDs were not identical. It may be hard to directly measure any possible differences, but you don’t have to - just switch CDs from one player to another and test again.

If you take these kinds of extra efforts, you can attach broader conclusion to your results, and you may actually convince some of the skeptics here (myself included) that you are on to something. You may also find that it is much harder to keep your listeners consistently attentive during all these tedious tests. When I tried doing similar tests, most people reacted by saying this is like listening to paint dry!

Good post! You make some very useful suggestions. Only the one on the negative control test gives me pause, but I don't have any comments on it right now. I can relate to the "like listening to paint dry" reaction of listeners. Boredom or impatience could bias testing.

[ROJ]

True, but should I still spend money on the cables if I can't hear a difference ?

Nope. In the absence of definitive proof, I think the choice to spend or not spend money on nicer cables is system dependent. I don't doubt those that don't hear differences or those that do hear differences. The only thing I doubt is our ability to definitively tell someone else if cables will make a difference in their system.

[bturk667]

I just wish I could make the kind of money that Mel has made off the Passion!

[bturk667]

Ah, but if what you wrote is true then cables would make a system sound different wouldn't they?
Both cables were 1 meter lenghts.

[bturk667]

As I wrote in my initial post, they have to find fault some how.

[bturk667]

That choice is yours to make!

[Audie Oghaisle]

Brought home identical CD players.
Hook them up to my linestage. CD player one connected to the linestage via a interconnect from a high-end manufacturer. CD player two connected to the linestage via a cheap Radio Shack interconnect. Too bad Home Depoit does not make them!
Placed to indentical CD into each players.
Four friends sitting in room; the test subjects. They had no idea what I was going to do. None of them are even close to being audiophiles! Hell, two do not even own a system, just Boom Boxes. They thought me stranger than usual!
Pressed play on both remotes; made sure that the CD's were timed exactly!
Then I proceeded to switch back and forth between the two Cd players by turning selector knob on my linestage; input one and two.
Would the test subjects hear a difference?


YES, THEY DID!!! Not just one or two of then, but all four!

Take my test for what you will. Those you do not believe in the benefits a interconnect can make to the sound of a system, please, keep believing in what you believe in. I know you will shoot dowm my test because it wasn't a DBT. I'm sure you will find some kind of fault with how I conducted my test; you have to!

For those who are intrested in the notion that interconnects MAY benefit the sound your systems, try this test for yourself. Let YOUR EARS decide for you! DO NOT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, PLEASE! Try this test yourselves. Again, what do you have to lose?

...as others may or have not, there can be significant differences in two brand new anythings out-of-the-box. I recently purchased a Marantz cassette deck which seemed to be sonically ok...if not for a disturbing mechanical problem, I wouldn't have returned it to the retailer and discovered its replacement to be superior in imaging and overall sound quality.

Also, you may want to swap ICs and even inputs to your gear...did you ever use the other inputs with any source previous to this? Stranger things have happened.

Audie

[bturk667]

The test as I conducted it was a simple and quick test. Trust me, my test subjects did not come over to sit there for a long time. I still think it was a respectable test with interesting results. Someday I will get more in depth, but for know I still think it was a fair and fairly accurate test.

[bturk667]

I agree with everything that your wrote, well most of what your wrote. The reason I did the test was for fun, and to see "What If." I had the opportunity to do it, so I did. Buy expensive cables or not, I do not care. It is your money spend it as you see fit. The only reason for my post was to read what the naysayers would write. To see how they think I messed up an innocent test. Especially when the results go against what they believe. I find these kind of exchanges fun!

[FLZapped]

Sorry, it is quite easy to cue them with a remote!
Level match? Why?

The louder of the two is almost always interpreted as sounding better.

"Nor were they ever characterized for frequency response differences." How do you know they weren't. I never wrote either way. Would that make a difference it the way they would make my system sound?

Yep.

-Bruce

[bturk667]

My linestage is passive unit. It has three line level inputs, and one tape loop. The two line level inputs that I used during the test I use all the time. My Cd player is connected to number one, while my phono pre-amp is connected to number two. I listen to music everyday; using either my CD player and my truntable, or somtimes both.

The other brand I used were my Nordost Blue Heavens. The Radio Shack interconnects were a copper cable using gold plated RCA connectors. The Blue Heavens are a flat cable, also copper. However, they have a thin layer of silver over the copper. They have gold plated RCA connectors.

The Nordost are a lot more expensive. I would not recommend people spending as much as I did if they have even the slightest reservations. There are much better ways to spend your money on your system!

[bturk667]

My linestage is passive. That being stated, I knew that somone would bring this point up; it is very important to make sure levels match when comparing speakers. So yes, I used my Radio Shack SPL level meter, cat. no. 33-2050. I used the C weighting. My test CD was Sterophile test CD no. 1, track #20 1khz 1/3-octave warble tone, and no.3, tracks 22-27. No problem there! I tried to be somewhat thorough; also trying to predict question having to do with my test. Now I will admitt I could have done more, but why? My test I believe was thorough enough. After all I love my interconnects, and do not regrett any of the choices I have made in assembling my system.

As for your frequency response question; based on manufacturers specifications, this to was not an issue.

The test was fun, the problem is that my friends think I am even stranger that they thought I was before.

So you believe interconnects can affect the sound of ones system?

[DMK]

I agree with everything that your wrote, well most of what your wrote. The reason I did the test was for fun, and to see "What If." I had the opportunity to do it, so I did. Buy expensive cables or not, I do not care. It is your money spend it as you see fit. The only reason for my post was to read what the naysayers would write. To see how they think I messed up an innocent test. Especially when the results go against what they believe. I find these kind of exchanges fun!

That's cool. But I coulda told you what they'd write - nearly word for word

Nope, no expensive cables for me! Too much vinyl out there, patiently waiting for my greedy but cash limited fingers!