Wire is no Wire: The proof? You decide!

[bturk667]

When you did your testing; how many cables from different manufacturers did you use during the testing?
Did you use cables comprised of different materials? Example: Copper vs. Silver.

[CyberStoic]

Good luck

Too late to put trim around the two existing pairs?

I am glad I saw this as I scanned the site this morning. An excellent suggestion, thank you. I stopped next door and asked my neighbour the retired carpenter how he would hide them. He had some oak stock and we cut slightly larger that normal 1/4 rounds with a routed groove in the back for the wire to fit in. The groove is large enough that I could pull the wire out if I ever needed to rewire it. This saved me a substantial amount of work removing the existing trim and the 1/4 round gave the whole thing a more finished appearance that the wife liked even better.

And I suppose the best part, she asks, "where did all that wire go?" hahahahaha

Thanks much!
Take gentle care

[DMK]

When you did your testing; how many cables from different manufacturers did you use during the testing?
Did you use cables comprised of different materials? Example: Copper vs. Silver.

I put the protocol and the results on my computer and the dang thing crashed so my test is lost for good unless someone I sent a copy to still has it. I sent about 15 copies to people on this board but that was years ago and I think Mtry may be the only one left. Not much to read, though - null result except for one that proved defective.

I think I used 8 cables and the ones I remember are:

Cheapo zip cord from Radio Shack
DH Labs silver - their least expensive, $90 I think
Straight Wire Virtuoso - the broken one
Tara Labs Prism 22

Gad, that's all I remember but I think my old Monster M1000 Mk II was in there, one I still use. And an Audioquest but I can't recall which one - may have been the Ruby. I tested all against each other in something like 12 trials each. It was rigorous and time consuming, not to mention boring as hell. The possible conclusions were many, one being that there were no discernible diffs in cables. I do recall even missing the defective one in one trial. Weird. It was painfully obvious in all the others. I think the most expensive interconnect was $250/meter, certainly not even approaching an exhaustive test. But it was good enough to convince me to get out of the cable wars, although not immediately which I find odd in retrospect.

Bottom line is, my experience isn't your experience and shouldn't be. If your cables bring you an improvement, real or perceived, more power to you. Far be it from me to argue and attempt to deprive you of listening pleasure.

[mtrycraft]

I looked through my files as best I could. Changed a few computers since. Don't have it anymore.
But as I remember you had a variety of the stuff.

[mtrycraft]

I am glad I saw this as I scanned the site this morning. An excellent suggestion, thank you. I stopped next door and asked my neighbour the retired carpenter how he would hide them. He had some oak stock and we cut slightly larger that normal 1/4 rounds with a routed groove in the back for the wire to fit in. The groove is large enough that I could pull the wire out if I ever needed to rewire it. This saved me a substantial amount of work removing the existing trim and the 1/4 round gave the whole thing a more finished appearance that the wife liked even better.

And I suppose the best part, she asks, "where did all that wire go?" hahahahaha

Thanks much!
Take gentle care

Great And if it works, not silence, the wire wasn't hit with a nail

[brigrizzme]

It's all poop. Go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy new wires.

[brigrizzme]

Read John Dunvaly's article on wires.

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It's all poop. Go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy new wires.

[bturk667]

Did he or did he not offer cables?

[okiemax]

Read John Dunvaly's article on wires.

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It's all poop. Go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy new wires.

I'm not sure which article you have in mind. I believe there were experiments where subjects were asked to listen to (1)a zip cord, and (2)a zip cord disguised as a fancy cable. Although the subjects didn't know the latter was just a zip cord, they thought it sounded better.

I don't know the details of these experiments, but I have reservations about drawing conclusions from the testing if what happened is similar to what I fear may have happened. Consider the following possibility of a conversation between a researcher and a subject.

Researcher: "I would like for you to listen to recorded music using this small cord and this large cable, and tell me which you think sounds best, if you prefer one."

Subject: Agrees to do the test, but thinks to himself "He probably wants me to choose the large cable because he already knows it sounds best."

Researcher: "Now that you have completed the experiment, which one did you think sounds best?"

Subject:"I liked the large cable better than the small cord."

Researcher: " Why did you like it better?"

Subject: "There was more detail, the bass went lower, and the soundstage seemed wider and deeper."

Researcher: "Thank you for participating." The researcher never tells the subject that both the small cords and the large cables are the same.


If an experiment was like this example, what conclusions could be made?

[mtrycraft]

I'm not sure which article you have in mind. I believe there were experiments where subjects were asked to listen to (1)a zip cord, and (2)a zip cord disguised as a fancy cable. Although the subjects didn't know the latter was just a zip cord, they thought it sounded better.

I don't know the details of these experiments, but I have reservations about drawing conclusions from the testing if what happened is similar to what I fear may have happened. Consider the following possibility of a conversation between a researcher and a subject.

Researcher: "I would like for you to listen to recorded music using this small cord and this large cable, and tell me which you think sounds best, if you prefer one."

Subject: Agrees to do the test, but thinks to himself "He probably wants me to choose the large cable because he already knows it sounds best."

Researcher: "Now that you have completed the experiment, which one did you think sounds best?"

Subject:"I liked the large cable better than the small cord."

Researcher: " Why did you like it better?"

Subject: "There was more detail, the bass went lower, and the soundstage seemed wider and deeper."

Researcher: "Thank you for participating." The researcher never tells the subject that both the small cords and the large cables are the same.


If an experiment was like this example, what conclusions could be made?

That is simple. It shows how biased humans are, that experimentally, as has been demonstrated time and time again, people will claim to detect a difference 75% rate when in fact the same component was presented over and over.
This is exactely why DBT listening is conducted. While some will say foul, this is a legitimate test method.

John Dunlavy has also tested his cable to the 12 ga zip with null results.

[okiemax]

That is simple. It shows how biased humans are, that experimentally, as has been demonstrated time and time again, people will claim to detect a difference 75% rate when in fact the same component was presented over and over.
This is exactely why DBT listening is conducted. While some will say foul, this is a legitimate test method.

John Dunlavy has also tested his cable to the 12 ga zip with null results.

WRONG! Whatever was used to cover the zip cord to make it look bigger also made it sound better.

Seriously, the test may have its own bias. It could be the participant is just doing what he thinks he is supposed to do in choosing the big cable as sounding best rather than the small one. After all, isn't bigger supposed to be better? And wasn't the participant asked to make a decision? It also could be the participant feels the researcher prefers the big cable, and he wants to agree with the researcher or please him.

Wife buys a dozen brownies at bakery and serves them to husband on two plates. "Honey, the brownies on this plate I made myself, and those on the other plate are from the bakery. Which do you prefer? Husband tries each, and then remarks "Oh, yours are much better." Wife: Why do you like them better? Husband: "Well, they are richer and have more chocolate flavor."

[mtrycraft]

WRONG! Whatever was used to cover the zip cord to make it look bigger also made it sound better.

Seriously, the test may have its own bias. It could be the participant is just doing what he thinks he is supposed to do in choosing the big cable as sounding best rather than the small one. After all, isn't bigger supposed to be better? And wasn't the participant asked to make a decision? It also could be the participant feels the researcher prefers the big cable, and he wants to agree with the researcher or please him.

Wife buys a dozen brownies at bakery and serves them to husband on two plates. "Honey, the brownies on this plate I made myself, and those on the other plate are from the bakery. Which do you prefer? Husband tries each, and then remarks "Oh, yours are much better." Wife: Why do you like them better? Husband: "Well, they are richer and have more chocolate flavor."

Exactely, shows his bias, or is afraid to offend wife Same cookies, yet he claimed a difference for one, no matter that his wife claimed she made one. Yes, he is pleasing someone.
This would not happen in a DBT.

[okiemax]

Exactely, shows his bias, or is afraid to offend wife Same cookies, yet he claimed a difference for one, no matter that his wife claimed she made one. Yes, he is pleasing someone.
This would not happen in a DBT.

My subject was not blinded testing, but sighted testing comparing a zip cord and zip cord disguised as a fat cable. It was my understanding Dunlavey's test was similar. Given the nature of this kind of sighted testing, a participant's choice of the fat cable as the better sounding one, may be based on a desire to make a right choice or please the researcher, rather than on what he actually heard. Because these motives can be powerful, I would not conclude the choice was based just on the fat cable's looks.

[lumiere]

http://www.stereophile.com/thinkpieces/165/index.html

[bturk667]

Thanks!