what is the difference in wires?

[Rikki]

its not all about high frequencies, its about imaging differences, dynamics across the audible range of frequencies, tonal coloration, and other things that cannot be measured or that measurements havent been devised to reveal.

The reason I don't buy this theory is because if you snuck into someone's house in the middle of the night and changed their speaker wire/ICs to just cheap clean copper wire without telling them (assume the cheap wires are the same color/packaging etc. as the original wires- so the difference isn't visual). Are you saying they would notice a difference ? I really don't think so.

If you changed their speakers or processor for sure they would hear a difference - but not the wire.

Or the truely blind test where maybe one day I changed them without telling you and maybe one day I changed them back. I'm not going to tell you when/if I changed them. Are you really going to realize the difference day to day ? And the one day when you say you hear a difference - but I didn't even change them that day - wouldn't that blow the whole scam ?

dj-
as you havent listed your equipment, we cant know if it is capable of distinguishing between wires.

Above reply applies to any system priced $100 --> $1 million

[Hyfi]

Above reply applies to any system priced $100 --> $1 million

Not sure I agree with this one. $100 components can't even playback the source properly let alone be able to convey differences in cables.

You may want to rethink your price point, but I still won't agree.

If the same exact music is played at the same volume on a warmed up system each day, many people will quickly be able to tell that it sounds different.

[Rikki]

If the same exact music is played at the same volume on a warmed up system each day, many people will quickly be able to tell that it sounds different.

That I will agree with. Copper wire (along with the other components) can make music sound different - based on if it's hot or cold. The nicer the system the more you will probably notice it.

But my point is no one is improving copper wire. Copper is copper. Ergo, wire is wire.

Only God (the real God not Eric Clapton) could improve copper. And even He would have to call it something else for copyright reasons.

[JohnMichael]

That I will agree with. Copper wire (along with the other components) can make music sound different - based on if it's hot or cold. The nicer the system the more you will probably notice it.

But my point is no one is improving copper wire. Copper is copper. Ergo, wire is wire.

Only God (the real God not Eric Clapton) could improve copper. And even He would have to call it something else for copyright reasons.

Unless of course your cables are made from silver or aluminum or other materials that have been used. Is copper not refined in the manufacturing process so man does have to improve upon the original.

[Poultrygeist]

If I attempted a discussion of the superiority of high end cables or wires on DIY Audio I'd be laughed at.

[E-Stat]

If I attempted a discussion of the superiority of high end cables or wires on DIY Audio I'd be laughed at.

There are non-experiential theorists found all over the internet.

You might like Hydrogen Audio, too. But then, they'd laugh at your use of SET amps. Obviously op amps are far superior and they have the measurements to prove it.

[E-Stat]

But my point is no one is improving copper wire.

Actually, many companies are improving the conductors using alloys of either aluminum or silver. But, I digress. Let's look at one of two other variables: geometry. Look at the metrics table at the bottom of this link. Do you notice any differences with capacitance or inductance using pretty much the same copper wire, but with different geometries?

Hint: Cables are part of the system and interact with amplification stages and speaker crossovers. Cables with a lower effective dielectric constant (product of capacitance and inductance) fare better. Here are a few representative values.

For those who think that zip cord is *perfect*, take a look at the distortion added when used in the real world as evidenced with this test.

I just have to smile at those with ZERO exposure to high performance cables (or systems for that matter) and conclude they cannot possibly make a difference using simplistic criteria.

[Poultrygeist]

Audiophoolery

[JohnMichael]

I just have to smile at those with ZERO exposure to high performance cables (or systems for that matter) and conclude they cannot possibly make a difference using simplistic criteria.

I could not agree more. As I have mentioned before some of us hear differences in cables and others do not. Yes my life would be easier if I did not hear differences but I do. My system is better for all the experimentation I have done. I also have enough copper here to have to worry about copper thieves.

[E-Stat]

Audiophoolery

Yes, I know of Ethan Winer from the Asylum. His company, Rives Audio, has a forum there on room treatments. I am in complete agreement with him in the value of treating the room with bass traps, sails and other touches. Rives has done some incredible rooms with incredible systems. Like that of Mike Lavgne. Somehow I think he figured out that zip cord wasn't exactly the best solution for him either. I use a dozen bass traps in the main system - yielding incredibly smooth measured response from 25-200 hz.

Let's take a look at what he says about cabling:

" But those are not a factor with usual cable lengths at audio frequencies, especially when connecting speakers to a power amplifier. Low capacitance wire can be important in special cases, like between a phonograph cartridge and its preamp. But high quality, low capacitance wire can be had for pennies per foot. "

Well, that's certainly a convincing argument. He doesn't know what he doesn't know. Let's go a bit further.

"Even sillier than expensive speaker wire is replacement AC power cords and most other power "conditioner" products... Noise and static can get into your gear through the power line and damage the sound...The suggestion that subtle changes in "clarity and presence" can occur is plain fraud."

Yet another convincing argument completely supported by...

supported by...

It is sad that folks who presumably love the experience of listening to music somehow arbitrarily decide not to experience better. Many of us already have. To wit:

"All of us associated with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra are extremely pleased with the results gained from using the Shunyata Research Hydra and power cords in our reference recording studios. These outstanding, musical products have enhanced our recordings and made it easier for our musicians to hear the detail of their instruments!"
-- Peter Poltun, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra

“As studio owners, we are regularly exposed to numerous ‘quality enhancement products’ and have naturally become cautious and very selective; you rarely achieve an audible improvement without somehow adversely affecting another element in the audio chain. We have been using Shunyata power cables at my studio for some time now. Careful placement of the cables has resulted in reduced distortion, improved clarity, better low level detail and richer 3-dimensional depth in the soundstage. The Anaconda PowerSnakes, for example, have transformed our Sonoma system, used during the mastering process for the new 5.1 mix of ‘The Dark Side of The Moon’. I look forward to trying the Hydra AC distribution next. Highly recommended."
-- James Guthrie, Grammy award winning Producer/Engineer (Pink Floyd)

“We first put the Hydra to test on a monitor system that had problems with noise and clarity. The result was less noise with an improvement in overall sound quality. We now use the Hydra's on our Model 2 converters, AES router and main monitor system consisting of B&W 802 speakers and Chord Amps.“
-- Clayton Wood, Senior Engineer: SkyWalker Sound

"Shunyata Research power cables and interconnects made a remarkable difference in my reference system. The PowerSnakes power cables added effortless muscularity, control and wide-open clarity to the amps driving my speakers. These are not subtle tweaks. I would guess the amps sound 15 percent better -- a far bigger difference than any speaker cables have made and in many cases, as unbelievable as it may seem, a greater improvement than changing the whole front end. I could not recommend them highly enough."
-- Rick Rubin, Grammy winning Record Producer

"We conducted a series of listening test to both the Shunyata cables and the Hydra power conditioner. Our comparison point included both standard mains cables and other esoteric cables. We found that both the Shunyata cables and the Hydra gave the best results by some margin."
-- Phil Taylor, Studio Manager: Astoria Studio, UK

"We were particularly impressed with the sense of phase coherence that Shunyata products delivered, giving noticeably better imaging, depth and clarity. We tried many different areas of our signal path, all benefited. With digital sources it was almost as if we had switched from 44.1k/16 bit to 96k/ 24 bit. We now run all our analogue machines, workstations and the mixing console from the Shunyata equipment."
-- Andy Jackson, Senior Mastering Engineer: Astoria Studio. UK

"I have personally evaluated the Hydra power conditioning system along with your PowerSnakes power cables. I was very impressed with the results. Shunyata Research products are now part of my equipment set up. Especially, with my 2 track tape machines, the sound with your system was definitely more transparent and clear. I would highly recommend Shunyata Research products to any professional audio/video facility.”
-- Vlado Meller, Senior Mastering Engineer: Sony Music Studios, New York

"I have been very skeptical of power related tweaks above and beyond good basic engineering practices like wire sizing, proper grounding and good solid connections. That said I tried to be open to the merits of the Shunyata approach regarding power management. After living with various power cables, outlets and Hydra AC distribution systems for several months while working on my DMP Archive Project, I can honestly say that Shunyata Power Systems do contribute to a more solid, focused and accurate sonic picture."
-- Tom Jung, President: Digital Music Products Inc.

"For many years, I've tried and tested power conditioners by major manufacturers with varying results. I'm pleased to say that I can now put my search for the elusive optimal AC conditioner to rest. The Hydra Model-8 and Hydra Model-2 power conditioners coupled with Shunyata's power cables have provided me with an extremely clean and transparent foundation by which I can check and approve test pressings with full confidence."
-- Steven Epstein, 12 time Grammy winner 6 time Grammy winner: "Classical Producer Of The Year”

"I've run out of words to describe the effect Shunyata Research has had on the SACD experience in our studio. From the mass and quality of the Hydra power distribution center with it's dynamic openness, the clarity gleaned from the Anaconda Alpha/Anaconda VX, and the direct detail obtained from the interconnects and speaker cables. Shunyata Research has put a very positive signature on Crest National's, Hollywood reference listening experience."
-- Jon Truckenmiller, Sr. VP Engineering: Crest National Studios

"We are using various Shunyata products to further our quest for the best signal path in tracking, mixing, and mastering. The Hydra Model-2 and Hydra Model-6 on various vintage guitar amps and vintage analog keyboards have made a world of difference in clarity and punch. We are using the Python line for our 24-track tape machine, DACs, tube preamps, and tube microphone power supplies. On the power amps we have the Taipan line. Again I have noticed more definition in the transients. Overall I think that Shunyata products are an integral part of taking the critical listening system to the next level."
-- Brett Allen, Studio Manager: Look Out Sound Studios

“After trying numerous top shelf brands of power distribution and IC's for my mastering facility, only the Shunyata Research Hydra's and PowerSnakes remained as a vital part of my signal path and playback system. It's never been so easy to achieve the great sound that I have been striving for -- I no longer have to reach for my equalizers to find space for the details that I now have in spades. Lower noise levels let me get deeper into a mix without sacrificing power to my equipment. No anemic sounds here! Just music that always sounds right. I want to re-master my whole discography now!”
-- Phil Demetro, Mastering Engineer: The Lacquer Channel, Toronto

All in all, the system now produces an audio hologram that much more closely approximates a live performance. Thanks for your recommendation of this excellent product."
-- Doug Munch, New Jersey Philharmonic Orchestra

The *teachings* of non-experiential theorists just don't contradict my experience and that of many discerning listeners.

[hifitommy]

rikki:

" wouldn't that blow the whole scam ?"

it is not a scam and its obvious that you have a closed mind. you can take comfort in the fact that you won't spend money on wire unless it comes from monoprice. you can enjoy music even in a lo-fi existence, i have no axe to grind and do not care whether anyone else pays more than the lowest price for any wire. i hear differences in wire and select accordingly.

i have never paid more than $100 for any one wire or pair of them but if i had audio research reference series electronics and wilson audio sashas, you can bet i wouldn't go for ratshack level cabling in my system.

as for the DIY people, why would they engage making a wire that way if they didn't believe there was a sonic advantage? i respect them for the money saving approach to better sound.

[LeRoy]

I hear differences in presentation with changes in cabling. I have spent up to $300/pr for I.C.'s from Blue Marble Audio, $150/pr for Anti-Cable I.C.'s , and $75/pr for Virtue Audio Nirvana Cables. So which IC reigns supreme in my rig? None of the above. The IC from Neko Audio which happens to be Beldon wire is the best I have ever had and it's only $68/pr!

Yes, there are differences to be sure but I got lucky in finding a great product at a really affordable price.

[E-Stat]

The IC from Neko Audio which happens to be Beldon wire is the best I have ever had and it's only $68/pr!

I bought and terminated some bulk Belden 1505 for the office since it was a relatively long run from the computer. to the receiver.

The first time I did that was in '77 when I got Acoustat X speakers. Since they were powered, I needed a ten meter run from the preamp. Don't remember exactly which flavor I chose.

[Rikki]

i hear differences in wire and select accordingly.

I hear differences in presentation with changes in cabling.

I would bet anything a blind test would prove this wrong.

You have to admit that at least part of it is psychological. Meaning when you change wire (and maybe spent a lot of money) your mind wants there to be a difference even if there isn't one.

Sears has an appliance brand named Kenmore. There isn't a Kenmore factory it's just a brand name and they really are Whirlpool appliances. They are built on the same line in the same factory and then a label is slapped on at the end with maybe a few other cosmetic differences. However, people will swear that their Whirlpool washer is better than a Kenmore just because they paid more and Whirlpool is a more well known/respected brand name. It's just human nature.

[Poultrygeist]

You won't find any boutique speakers wires at Hornfest but you will see Walmart Woods Patio cords hooked up to a $35K three chassis GM70 SET.

[E-Stat]

You have to admit that at least part of it is psychological. Meaning when you change wire (and maybe spent a lot of money) your mind wants there to be a difference even if there isn't one.

Or, the converse. Your audio reviewer friend has just lent you his two Kimber Palladians to try out in your system and you really don't want to hear a difference.

I did.

[E-Stat]

You won't find any boutique speakers wires at Hornfes...

You will find Nordost Valhalla wiring in all of VPI's best tonearms after Harry Weisfeld heard HP's system at Sea Cliff.

You will also find Nordost wiring in the latest Nola Grand Reference tower for the same reason.

I thought the Super Scoutmaster sounded fabulous with either the big Nolas or Scaena 1.4s. HP currently uses Odin cabling throughout. It really is fun to hear your favorite music essentially for the first time with spectacularly high resolution systems like his. You hear stuff you never had before.

It's certainly fine by me if you're not interested in better.

[LeRoy]

@ E-Stat, man, I had no idea Belden could be used in the audio chain with such excellent results. I knew Belden existed but never heard their wire in a system and I was shocked to learn Neko uses Beldon 1800F for their IC's. I found a review by BJC and even thought the 1800F result was not stellar by their published results it did mention that when the 1800F is utilized with XLR balanced then it's a superb cable. I know that's right because thats exactly what I got hooked up right now. Besides BJC I wonder who else used Beldon cable.

@ Rikki, you would lose the bet. I can hear differences in how changes in cabling can change extension, decay, tonality, etc. Sometimes the difference are very subtle or quite vast. Psychologically speaking, yes I "expect" to hear a difference because there is a different or swapped piece in the audio chain but that does not mean that whatever changes that I hear are preferred over the former. I paid less money for the Neko than with the Blue Marble Audio. I prefer the Neko not because of the price difference but for the SQ results that it delivers in my rig. I think being able to detect changes in SQ with regard to cable exchanges is a learned over time with a great many different system configs. I can appreciate your position though as I used to not believe it either until one day I noticed the differences and have been noticing ever since.

[E-Stat]

@ E-Stat, man, I had no idea Belden could be used in the audio chain with such excellent results.

Since Belden has been in the business for over a century, they've always made good stuff. I have also made DIY power cables using their cordage and fire alarm cable. The latter is 12 gauge and is double shielded.

Here's the recipe for the 83803 cable used in the vintage system with a Threshold power amp. Remember that a power cord is the first three feet of power line which can pickup and radiate RFI into nearby interconnects and components.

[LeRoy]

Thanks for the recipe! I think I am gonna have to give it a shot but probably until this summer. Thanks again E-Stat.