Using Cables as Tone Controls

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I have to disagree with you on this one. Regardless what your room is doing to the sound if you are very familiar with the sound it is easy to discern the differences in cables. Two sets of IC's that emphasized the upper frequencies were silver and copper plated with silver. At first I thought how open and extended only to become irritating.

I have always wondered if a two channel system with no sound processing will enable someone to hear the differences in cables easier than in a multichannel system. Of course I also prefer solid core cables over stranded wires.

Sorry JM, don't buy your statement at all. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY has been able to identify the difference between two cables in un-sited listening test. NOBODY!! They have done demo's many times at AES. Most listening tests up to this point have been sited, and the measured difference so small that room resonances, reflection patterns, Reverberation times, and various other acoustical issues would far dominate our listening than the cables themselves. How do you separate the room, the cable, the recording, and the characteristics of the speakers themselves when the room is the loudest component in the system? You can't. It is well known that a great recording can be neutered by poor room/speaker interaction, and that makes your statement rather subjective than objective.

I know how strong the Placebo effect is, and apparently so do many researchers as well. If you WANT it to sound different, it usually will.

Lastly, the object of IC's is to pass the signal with little or no damage. If a cable is emphasizing anything and it is audible, then the cable is not going to meet that objective. It is nothing more than a tone control, much like tube amps and preamps are. If I move a reflective or absorptive piece of furniture in the room, that will obviously change our perception of sound quality more than cable will both measurably, and audibly.

[Hyfi]

It is nothing more than a tone control, much like tube amps and preamps are.

Wow, after all this time, we finally agree on something. Did ya happen to notice the Title of this thread?

Thread: Using Cables as Tone Controls

[Smokey]

Sorry JM, don't buy your statement at all. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY has been able to identify the difference between two cables in un-sited listening test. NOBODY!! They have done demo's many times at AES. Most listening tests up to this point have been sited, and the measured difference so small that room resonances, reflection patterns, Reverberation times, and various other acoustical issues would far dominate our listening than the cables themselves. How do you separate the room, the cable, the recording, and the characteristics of the speakers themselves when the room is the loudest component in the system? You can't.

Also add to the mix that memory will be our reference point when comparing cables as to what we heared and currently comparing to. That unperdictable variable (our memory) alone make test result questionable.

The only way to eliminate memory variable in the test would be to do instantaneous switching between cables so listener don't have rely on their memory to compare cables. The test results would be more valid

[Feanor]

...
I know how strong the Placebo effect is, and apparently so do many researchers as well. If you WANT it to sound different, it usually will.

Lastly, the object of IC's is to pass the signal with little or no damage. If a cable is emphasizing anything and it is audible, then the cable is not going to meet that objective. It is nothing more than a tone control, much like tube amps and preamps are. If I move a reflective or absorptive piece of furniture in the room, that will obviously change our perception of sound quality more than cable will both measurably, and audibly.

Well some would say (and have said) that it's fine to use i/cs for tone control. For my part, I use a digital equalizer plug-in in my computer music player; it works brilliantly and it's free.

I've tried to maintain an open mind on cables for many years and have occasionally tried different makes. However none have made any noticeable difference for me. Believers take note: I don't say that cables can't sound different, only that I haven't hear significant differences among those I've tried.

Some makes of cable incorporate filter networks, e.g. MIT, Transparent, Siltech, (which aren't among those I've tried). It makes sense that they might sound different. A member here has graciously offered to lend me a pair; I'm enthusiastic to listen and I'll keep an open mind.

But as for placebo effect, hell yes! If it weren't for all the earnest testimonials for 'Brilliant Pebbles', 'Clever Little Clocks', etc., Machina Dynamica would have been run out of business years ago.

[Happy Camper]

I give the same advice to those doubting the impact a cable will have on the sound. It is a tone control but only in the sense that one end or the other of the audio spectrum will be affected. They can bottleneck a signal to impede the PrAT of a sound as well. (ICs)

Most every audio forum will have scientific "experts" ridicule anyone commenting on differences in sound based on a cable. DBT and pre-conceived expectations are the biggest "lie" induced into the result. To the point that they will embarrass those claiming a difference as shills trying to market a cable to the new and impressionable hobbyist. They will double talk the person with scientific jargon and tell them they are delusional or a liar. For one to have such a high level of education, they can be very biased and ignorant.

[Hyfi]

I give the same advice to those doubting the impact a cable will have on the sound. It is a tone control but only in the sense that one end or the other of the audio spectrum will be affected. They can bottleneck a signal to impede the PrAT of a sound as well. (ICs)

Most every audio forum will have scientific "experts" ridicule anyone commenting on differences in sound based on a cable. DBT and pre-conceived expectations are the biggest "lie" induced into the result. To the point that they will embarrass those claiming a difference as shills trying to market a cable to the new and impressionable hobbyist. They will double talk the person with scientific jargon and tell them they are delusional or a liar. For one to have such a high level of education, they can be very biased and ignorant.

And one has never taken up my offers to come hear for themselves in my system in 15 years.

[Happy Camper]

And one has never taken up my offers to come hear for themselves in my system in 15 years.

It's the debate that's more important than the discovery. Arrogance wallowing in ignorance = bliss by ignoring the journey to avoid being proved wrong. I find it comical that all the naysayers will use DBT results as proof when we know human accuracy in audio is far from reliable.

When I first started listening to cables for a difference, I would listen to the main sound of the music. As I started listening to the fringes around the main music, I started noticing how the ambient sounds were being impacted. Then the acoustic responses in natural instruments, the decay of tones, a muffling of the delicate instruments. An analogy would be putting on a new set of windshield wipers. It clears up the sound and you can hear all that was intended.

A question was brought up in a recent article that maybe it's the component that's defective for a cable to have an impact on it's performance. There may be some truth to that. Since it's much more expensive to change components, a cable can transform the performance to hit that sweet spot.

[jneutron]

A question was brought up in a recent article that maybe it's the component that's defective for a cable to have an impact on it's performance. There may be some truth to that.

May be some truth in that?

It is an accurate statement with respect to IC's and PC's.

Where was this article, I'd like to peruse it.

j

ps..my goodness, I've been a member on this site longer than everyone else in the thread..you guys are all newbies!!!

[Hyfi]

j

ps..my goodness, I've been a member on this site longer than everyone else in the thread..you guys are all newbies!!!

No, the dates were reset at some point. I am close to 15 years now

[Smokey]

Most every audio forum will have scientific "experts" ridicule anyone commenting on differences in sound based on a cable. DBT and pre-conceived expectations are the biggest "lie" induced into the result. To the point that they will embarrass those claiming a difference as shills trying to market a cable to the new and impressionable hobbyist. They will double talk the person with scientific jargon and tell them they are delusional or a liar. For one to have such a high level of education, they can be very biased and ignorant.

Have you ever thought the opposite may also be true whene one might seek higher education so they won't be bias and ignorant about cables. Some times "I can hear it" will not cut it in the real world where cables are not magical and out of realms of cable functionality

[Hyfi]

Have you ever thought the opposite may also be true whene one might seek higher education so they won't be bias and ignorant about cables. Some times "I can hear it" will not cut it in the real world where cables are not magical and out of realms of cable functionality

And sometimes, repeating everything you read as opposed to actually trying things for yourself becomes meaningless. Reading for education is great but real world practical experience counts just as much if not more.

Sometimes "you can't hear it because I read you can't" will not cut it either.

[Hyfi]

CAN a difference in cables exist?

SHOULD a difference in cables exist?

If differences exist, WHY do they exist?

CAN differences be measured?

CAN we hear things that cannot be measured?

CAN things be measured that we cannot hear or sense?

CAN two things that are measured to be identical be proven to be perceived as different?

Can perception be verified with scientific testing (NOT belief; actual perception)?

- Have you ever tried different cables in your system?

- Please describe cables (make/model or if DIY how constructed).

- Did you hear a difference?

- What are your reference components?

- Do you have any hearing issues that may impact your ability to detect differences?

[JohnMichael]

My recent experience with AntiCables has been interesting. When the cables were not twisted in my system they are neutral. When twisted they brightened up and I lost instrumental textures and everything had a glassy sound. Twisted they are tone controls and non twisted and they are neutral.

[Hyfi]

CAN a difference in cables exist? Yes

SHOULD a difference in cables exist? Yes if not built with exactly the same materials and specs. No if they are 2 identicle cables

If differences exist, WHY do they exist? Materials, build quality, design

CAN differences be measured? If measured properly yes, if just looking at 2 cables not hooked up to anything, maybe not

CAN we hear things that cannot be measured? Probably

CAN things be measured that we cannot hear or sense? Probably

CAN two things that are measured to be identical be proven to be perceived as different? Perception is hard to prove but to each individual it is real

Can perception be verified with scientific testing (NOT belief; actual perception)? Probably with the right conditions

- Have you ever tried different cables in your system? Yes

- Please describe cables (make/model or if DIY how constructed).
Too many to list but all from well known MFGs and price ranges from $5 to $350 per pair of ICs, Audioquest, XLO, Tara Labs, Synergistic, Radio Shack, Groneberg

- Did you hear a difference? Yes in some, not in all

- What are your reference components? see signature

- Do you have any hearing issues that may impact your ability to detect differences? what? None that I know of

Your turn, Smokey

[Smokey]

Ok Hyfi I bite, but you probably already know what my answers going to be

-CAN a difference in cables exist?

Yes it can as not all cables are created equal.

-SHOULD a difference in cables exist?

That is a loaded question as even cable lenght will make a difference.

-If differences exist, WHY do they exist?

Materials, build quality, design, cable geometry and shielding.

-CAN differences be measured?

In most cases with proper instruments yes it can.

-CAN we hear things that cannot be measured?

From cables, I would say no. Cable technology as is as old as light bulb and we would have documented cases by now if things we hear can not be measured.

-CAN things be measured that we cannot hear or sense?

Most definitey. Harmonics are good example.

-CAN two things that are measured to be identical be proven to be perceived as different?

Sure. Good example would be when music sound different in the mornings than at nights, or depending on our moods.

-Can perception be verified with scientific testing (NOT belief; actual perception)?

Probably not. There is nothing as complex as human mind.

- Have you ever tried different cables in your system?

Not for sound, but for better specifications.

- Please describe cables (make/model or if DIY how constructed).

Bluejean aka Belden cables.

- Did you hear a difference?

Maybe I could if comparison was instantaneous. But going by memery, I would say no.

- What are your reference components?

That is an irrelevant question as cables sould be chosen independent of system cost.

- Do you have any hearing issues that may impact your ability to detect differences?

None that I am aware of.

[Happy Camper]

Have you ever thought the opposite may also be true whene one might seek higher education so they won't be bias and ignorant about cables. Some times "I can hear it" will not cut it in the real world where cables are not magical and out of realms of cable functionality

Yes sir. Their education wasn't in the hobby but in their profession. The problem with this topic is that there are no documents supporting a change of cables in a formula that we are used to for scientific study. I was disappointed to find cables are pretty much "learn as you go" and there is no way of calculating what a cable will have on any two components. I've had similar issues with this synergy statement with components. How can one piece together a decent sounding rig without spending a lot of money.

Piecing a system together is a lesson in gear. For that, you can spend and learn yourself or you can trust a professional merchant to help. Thankfully I found a merchant willing to let me take home some stuff to learn. If one doesn't experience, they won't learn. Being loud and ignorant doesn't help anybody.

[Hyfi]

- What are your reference components?

That is an irrelevant question as cables sould be chosen independent of system cost.


Nobody said anything about cost. Many lower priced gear is as revealing as high end gear. Just not all low priced gear. I have some that will show differences in cables and others not really.

The question was posed because cables react differently to the mating components. Thats why this argument is useless because measuring cables that are not connected to components means nothing. It is how they react with them that makes the difference.

[Smokey]

The question was posed because cables react differently to the mating components. Thats why this argument is useless because measuring cables that are not connected to components means nothing. It is how they react with them that makes the difference.

Ok. I go along with that statement

And on the same note, wouldn't you also agree that to keep differences to minimum, we should choose a cable with good specifications (regardless of listening to it) to achieve transparency?

[Hyfi]

Ok. I go along with that statement

And on the same note, wouldn't you also agree that to keep differences to minimum, we should choose a cable with good specifications (regardless of listening to it) to achieve transparency?

And that is why all my cables are from well known reputable high quality MFGs.

And yours are????

[E-Stat]

And yours are????

Actually, he answered that question earlier - Belden labeled as Blue Jeans. I, too have used Belden for decades. I bought some bulk 1505F for use in my office since I needed a particularly long run and use 1694A in the digital connection between Squeezebox and Manley DAC in the garage. Belden is good, but not exceptional.

He did not, however, answer your question concerning a system point of reference. Without one, he is unable to make any real comparisons. While my main system is nice, the system I use for reference is much better.

His assertion that cable technology is as old as the light bulb is pretty funny. Apparently, Smoke has absolutely no awareness of modern materials technology or advanced RF shielding techniques. He is falling back to the days of clueless non-experiential guys like Mtrycraft.

[Hyfi]

He did not, however, answer your question concerning a system point of reference. Without one, he is unable to make any real comparisons.

His assertion that cable technology is as old as the light bulb is pretty funny. Apparently, Smoke has absolutely no awareness of modern materials technology or advanced RF shielding techniques. He is falling back to the days of clueless non-experiential guys like Mtrycraft.

That is the exact points I have been trying to make since he has decided to throw his Hat into that ring and be the Official AR Naysayer. I have no problem with someone jumping in who has actually experimented some, with gear that would resolve the differences, and saying that they could not hear a difference. It's the bookworm with absolutely NO practical experience or first hand knowledge starts telling us that the cables we purchased for specific reasons are defective.

[Smokey]

His assertion that cable technology is as old as the light bulb is pretty funny. Apparently, Smoke has absolutely no awareness of modern materials technology or advanced RF shielding techniques.

Yes, advanced RF shielding techniques using 150 year old Maxwell's equation laws

[jneutron]

Funny? Shirley you jest..

j

[E-Stat]

Funny?

I always find the speculations of non-experiential theorists funny.

Shirley you jest.

And...

[jneutron]

I always find the speculations of non-experiential theorists funny.

Uh oh...polysyllabic..I'm in trouble now..

btw...I am experienced..got the bandaids ta prove it..

j