Speaker Wire Developments in last 10 years? Need advice.

Obviously a noivice hear - Dynaudio Audience with Marantz AV Receiver for HT use only.

The last time i upgraded my speaker wire was 10 years ago - bought an "upgraded" caliber speaker wire that was about twice the guage on the recommnedation of the salesman at the time. Who knows if it was worth it.

Has anything come out that warrants ditching the old speaker wires that worth investing more money than i already have?

Stick with your speaker wire if its in good shape. If not consider some wire from Blue Jeans Cable -- Quality Cables at Reasonable Prices Their 10-14g speaker wire is a great buy if you buy it unterminated and apply the spades or Banana plugs yourself.

To my ears solid core cables are superior to stranded cables. Check out AntiCables and Audioquest since they both offer affordable cables using solid core wires. Solid Core cables are more focused and do not have the fuzzy strand interaction that bothers me with stranded cables.

You can spend a lot of money on wires and interconnects. All for dubious improvements at best. Loudspeakers provide so much variation that any possible changes wrought by switching wires and interconnects is lost. Unless, of course, your original wires and interconnects were simply inadequate or too long.

I have always suggested that wirephiles connect their new dream wires only on one channel with their old and unloved wires on the other channel and then pan back & forth to listen for any differences. As far as I know, none have ever done this. By the time you finish changing out ALL of your wires your memory of what you had will be lost so you will hear whatever improvements you wish to hear.

I have never purchased expensive cables. I would like to try some top level cables to hear if there are any benefits. The most I have spent on speaker or interconnect cables have been $250 a pair. I do not consider those as expensive.

Today my thoughts on cables are solid core with minimal dielectric and minimal jacketing. The more I listen to the AntiCable speaker cables and the DNM Reson IC's are the way to go. I hate to speak of other companies but Audioquest are good cables but I can understand why they had to develop the DBS system to counter the effects of the insulation.

Geortz Alpha core is another solid core brand using minimal dielectrics. I like their Micropurl IC's but their entry level speaker cables roll off the high end.

I have just one comment about the AntiCable speaker cables. I bought two pair to bi-wire and hooked them up without twisting the 4 wires per side. Later I twisted them and the longer I listened I thought where was that magic I first heard. Instrumental texture were missing and a prevailing glassy sound to the music was added. I removed them and put another solid core cable but then a banana plug came lose. Something made me think to untwist the cables and when they were hooked up the magic was back. The cables are only $10 a foot/pair.

Progress in cable design involves quality of conductors with less impurities and crystal structures. Less dielectric is a good thing and Tara Labs uses solid core in a vacuum at a very high price. Geometry is also important. DSM speaker cables and IC's are kept a consistent space between each other and is not and cannot be twisted. Other cable makers twist their conductors.

Conductors, insulations and geometry is where most of the improvements have occurred and that is what makes up a cable.

The reason for using braided audio wire is that such wire is very flexible and therefore not at all prone to work hardening from being repositioned to curve around obstacles. House wiring can be solid because it is seldom repositioned, but audio wires may be repositioned many times. The latter is the reason that oxygen-free copper is often specified for solid wires: oxygen-free Cu is resistant to work hardening. That is, using solid wire creates the need to use oxygen-free Cu.

I have the big 4 wire Audioquest only because it was given to me by my son-in-law who's in the business. At the moment it's in the garage as it sounds no better than the Walmart Woods Patio Power Cord and I don't care for it's weight and stiffness.

40 ft of the Woods Cord sells for around $10 plus you can use the male and female ends for other projects.

It's a waste to spend hard earned money on boutique horse**** cables.

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Originally Posted by Poultrygeist

I have the big 4 wire Audioquest only because it was given to me by my son-in-law who's in the business. At the moment it's in the garage as it sounds no better than the Walmart Woods Patio Power Cord and I don't care for it's weight and stiffness.

40 ft of the Woods Cord sells for around $10 plus you can use the male and female ends for other projects.

It's a waste to spend hard earned money on boutique horse**** cables.

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I am curious as to which model of AudioQuest you have. I am not familiar with big 4 wire Audioquest.

HT Audioquest

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Originally Posted by Poultrygeist

HT Audioquest

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I am not aware of an Audioquest cable with HT as the name. It is tough to know what you are comparing if we do not know the model of cable you are using for comparison.

JM, lots of things we aren't aware of exist.

In this case it's Audioquest/CinemaQuest FLX semi-solid concentric loc copper 4x14 and as I said it's HT Audioquest speaker cable ( only 4 conductor model ).

Given the name, whatever it costs is too much.

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Originally Posted by Poultrygeist

JM, lots of things we aren't aware of exist.

In this case it's Audioquest/CinemaQuest FLX semi-solid concentric loc copper 4x14 and as I said it's HT Audioquest speaker cable ( only 4 conductor model ).

Given the name, whatever it costs is too much.

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I just like to know what we are comparing. By Semi-Solid does that mean it is a mixture of solid core and stranded cables? I have a pair of AQ cables that are stranded and they are not in the same class as their solid core cables. The better AQ cables are all solid core.

I'll say it again for anyone thinking of spending large sums of money on speaker wires and expecting return on their investment.

If your speaker wires don't degrade the sound, then those wires are the best you can buy. Speaker wire degradation like pregnancy is not measured in degrees. It does or it doesn't or it is or it isn't.

There are so many worthwhile upgrades to one's system such as better tubes, capacitors, resistors, phase plugs, dampening, room mods, cone treatments etc. that it's shameful to delude newcomers into thinking high priced wires can make a difference vs non-degrading cheap wires.

Point-Counterpoint. Cables have their own electrical characteristics and those characteristics can work well with the components they are linking together or degrade the sound because of mismatched characteristics. Cables at the midrange price range can be a cost effective way to achieve synergy in your system.

Cables are a component in your system that are probably the most trouble free. They have nothing to break down or wear out. I did recently pull a banana plug from a speaker wire and you really do want to pull on the plug and not the wire.

Talk to your local dealer and ask if he has any wires for an at home trial. Until you try different style of cables it is hard to tell if they are a positive or negative.

Like many things in life some are more able to hear differences in cables. Differences in cables may be more noticeable in two channel systems than multiple speaker processed systems. When I add a new component I change cables to hear which sounds best.

My system is not finished until the cables have been selected.

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Originally Posted by Poultrygeist

I have the big 4 wire Audioquest only because it was given to me by my son-in-law who's in the business. At the moment it's in the garage as it sounds no better than the Walmart Woods Patio Power Cord and I don't care for it's weight and stiffness.

40 ft of the Woods Cord sells for around $10 plus you can use the male and female ends for other projects.

It's a waste to spend hard earned money on boutique horse**** cables.

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Poultry....I will take it off your hands if you are willing to part with it.

Give it up, Pg. You are arguing a religeous question. People will hear what they want to hear.

I have read so much nonsense about wires I am forced to wonder how people can have so much free time and money for this.

Sell the flakey wire and use the money for your other projects.

My favorite (beyond the exotic geometries jazz) is the use of OFC which MIGHT be beneficial in heavy solid conductors to prevent cracking. Oxygen-free copper was developed to allow generator armature windings and stator windings to be formed (bent) into their required shapes without cracking from work-hardening. There are no electrical differences between oxygen-free copper and standard copper. This is from the company that developed OFC. But many here are "sure" that they can hear the difference provided by using OFC in lieu of regular Cu.

People are so hungry to improve their systems yet lack the courage to try a real upgrade. It's sad that boutique wires end up being the best they can do.

One of the things I have found in my sampling of cables is that a single solid core cable sounds best to my ears. The timing of all the notes traveling that single wire in time creates a better soundstage. Even a cable that uses individually insulated solid core conductors of different guages can interfere with the timing. All my IC's and the AntiCables are single conductor for each polarity.

The next cable I am thinking about is the DNM Bi-wire speaker cable. The four solid core conductors are molded to keep an even distance between conductors. The two wires for the negative and two wires for the positive are set to reduce electrical interference and eddy currents.

I do not need cables but I like to try cables much the same way someone might upgrade an amps capacitors or try a new set of tubes. The only part of my stereo needing upgrading was my turntable. I have replaced the motor and added the power supply upgrade so I am happy with the perfformance of all my components.

Since the money I spend on cables or tweaks is rarely more than a nice evening out with a show. The cables and tweaks I will have for a longtime, long after the dinner has passes and I sober.

Now I understand.... Those of us who cannot hear differences amoung cables are defective. I guess we should junk our soundsystems....

Let's see: New Magnepan MMGs can be bought for $600 delivered. How many nice cables can I get for $600?

Which will do more for most listeners?

BTW someone pointed out a dealer's negative (does-not-recommend) attitude toward the MMG ... well, guess what? Dealers do not sell the MMG. Magnepan sells the MMG directly to the buyer and within 6 months one can then trade their MMG in for a $600 credit at their favorite Magnepan dealer. Then what happens to those MMG?

I read somewhere that the definition of an audiophile is a person who claims to hear the inaudible. Could it be that only audiophiles can hear audiophile wire differences?:wink5:

I was once interested in trying Mapleshade speaker cables and they are solid core twisted cables. My experience twisting the AntiCables and using some Ultralink stranded cables that are twisted has left me with the impression that twisted cables will have some brightness in the upper midrange and highs.

My first solid core cables after my experimenting with Radio Shack solid core hook-up wires were Nordost Flatline Gold. My system has improved so much since then I may try some of their entry level cables again.

As I continue my experience with cables I will avoid both twisted and stranded cables.

There have been some speaker cables that were known to destroy amps. An early example was a cable from Polk Audio. Two of the larger AlphaCore cables needed resistive elements to mate with some amps. I do not know if any amps are at risk today.

So true, Pg. So true.

Me?

I have both Futterman/Tympani and Jolida/Magnepan systems (not to mention two Mackie HR824 systems) and I ... Gasp.... am not an audiophile.... or is that Audiopile ???

WHERE... OH WHERE.... DID I GO WRONG ?????

Oh, yea.... I decided to have a real life..... You know.... a wife .... kids .... a House.... a boat .... an airplane .....

I BLEW it!!!!

SHAME ON ME !!!! I did not learn to hear wires !!!

Hey Mash and PG. If you feel this way about cables then why are you wasting your time in the cable forum?

Some people claim to hear differences between cables. Others can't hear the differences. That doesn't make the ones who can wrong. If you don't hear the difference, that's cool. But there's no reason to get nasty about it.

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Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn

Hey Mash and PG. If you feel this way about cables then why are you wasting your time in the cable forum?

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In context to the original poster's receiver, I would agree. Why bother?

This argument seems to crop up periodically, year after year. "Wire is wire," and "cables don't sound different" are statements made often, with which most of us at this site disagree, based on our own experiences.

I'm often shocked at the high prices (in the thousands of dollars!) some cables demand, and have no intention of every trying out any such cable. On a more "down-to earth" scale, I've had many success stories when it came to replacing speaker wire, interconnects and power cords.

The "bug" bit me in the late 80's when I replaced 14-guage zip cord with "Original" Monster Cable, and noticed a very significant improvment across the audio spectrum. Years later,I spent a small fortune (even at a substantial discount) for Audioquest "Crystal" solid core speaker wire: harsh, "in-your-face" and just plain awful, plus it was almost impossible to work with since it was so stiff. Monster Z-3 replaced that cable, and I've been delighted with it since, though I suspect there are still better cables out there, but at a price.

The largest single difference any cable made in terms of improvements was the AlphaCore TQ-2 solid silver interconncects I used from my SACD player to my preamp. I believe at the time they cost $275 for a 1-meter pair, but rarely was money better spent.

Audioquest has an arrangement with Audio Advisor for an interconnect called "Black Mamba II" which, for the price, is certainly worth trying. It sure improved the sound of my system by replacing Monster M-1000i, which sounded pretty good to begin with.

Then, there are the Pangea power cords, all of which cost a fraction of most "audiophile" power cords, and all of which made BIG differences in my system.

All that said, I'm sure several will still say I haven't a clue what I'm talking about. Be that as it may, others who,like me, have dabbled in this area, know what we hear. Would replacing my power amp and pre-amp with new units, costing about the same as my car make a difference? I'm sure they would, but expenditures of that nature are out of the question. If I can spend a few hundred dollars (or less) and hear an improvement, that, to me, is an "upgrade" well worth the effort, and deserves to be recommended to others.

It's not a waste of time responding to a novice asking an honest question regarding the worthiness of speaker wire upgrades. His mind has not been made up yet.

Offering a different opinion is not nasty but absolutely necessary for the life of any forum. If we were all like minded how much discussion, education or traffic would there be?

You won't find a cable forum on AC, AK or DIY Audio and for good reason.

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Originally Posted by Poultrygeist

You won't find a cable forum on AC, AK or DIY Audio and for good reason.

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Absolutely. No do it yourselfer could possibly "make" a high performance cable like Valhalla and there's not much to talk about terminating a piece of Belden . :)

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Originally Posted by Poultrygeist

It's not a waste of time responding to a novice asking an honest question regarding the worthiness of speaker wire upgrades. His mind has not been made up yet.

Offering a different opinion is not nasty but absolutely necessary for the life of any forum. If we were all like minded how much discussion, education or traffic would there be?

You won't find a cable forum on AC, AK or DIY Audio and for good reason.

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I agree. Different opinions are absolutely necessary for discussion. However, the sarcasm seemed to be getting a bit on the high side. I know that things have gotten out of hand on this forum in the past and I just want to keep things pleasant. :)

Hey, FA, I will make this straight forward so that YOU can understand.

Many inexperienced people visit here looking for information.

Why should they only be exposed to one side of the story? This may cause them to spend a lot of money that they will later wish they still had. Maybe you do not care about this.

And WHY do you concern yourself? You cannot handle conflicting viewpoints?

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Originally Posted by Mash

Hey, FA, I will make this straight forward so that YOU can understand.

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This is exactly what I was referring to. Why speak down to me?

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Originally Posted by Mash

And WHY do you concern yourself? You cannot handle conflicting viewpoints?

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Because I'm a moderator on this site and things were looking to me like they were about to take a nasty turn. I was trying to keep that from happening. That's all.

I am glad you are a moderator here, FA. Nasty turns are in the eye of the beholder. I consider it nasty to suggest to someone that they are not entitled to their opinions.

So someone "hears a difference" with wires? We cannot demonstrate that. It simply takes TOO LONG to change out ALL of the wires. Acoustic memories of the unfamiliar are simply too short.

At best one can use one set of wires on one channel and a different set on the other channel. Then pan back and forth to compare. To my knowlege no one has ever performed this test and demonstrated it to others of both camps. And it is an easy test.

I have experience with things electrical, including generators when I made decisions that involved sums running to more than 7 figures. And no one was looking over my shoulder. The company had full faith and confidence in my judgement... and so do I.

E-Stat, AC and AK are not DIY forums and you know that as well as the reason this topic deserves no forum of it's own. DIY Audio wouldn't waste their bandwidth.

Ummmm.... Pg.... Some discussions or threads on AK are DIY. But certainly not most of them.

I will admit that I have not noticed the "audibility of wires" being beaten to death on AK. Maybe we have missed those exchanges?

My 2 cents worth is that expensive cables are not money well spend for people with mid-level systems -- these people, including me, are better off putting the money towards improving other components.

What's expensive? JohnMichael says $250 isn't expensive. "Expensive" is relative, but to me that's a lot money. A 3 foot pair of Blue Jeans Cable BJC LC-1 single-ended interconnects is $31.25; anything more is expensive to me.

I don't say all cables sound the same; I do say that the differences are typically extremely small relative to almost any other component you can buy, and that includes things like tubes or opamps.

Certainly cables/wires are discussed but unlike this forum there is no specific section devoted to that discussion.

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Originally Posted by emaidel

This argument seems to crop up periodically, year after year. "Wire is wire," and "cables don't sound different" are statements made often, with which most of us at this site disagree, based on our own experiences.

The largest single difference any cable made in terms of improvements was the AlphaCore TQ-2 solid silver interconncects I used from my SACD player to my preamp. I believe at the time they cost $275 for a 1-meter pair, but rarely was money better spent.

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Emaidel are your TQ2 silver? I have the copper TQ2 and I was using them between the Marantz SA8001 and Krell S-300i. They are a good match when I use the RS6 speakers with their peaky treble but they soften the sound too much when I am using the OML1's. I was thinking I might like the TQ2 silver since I am listening exclusively to the OML1's.

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Originally Posted by Feanor

What's expensive? JohnMichael says $250 isn't expensive. "Expensive" is relative, but to me that's a lot money. A 3 foot pair of Blue Jeans Cable BJC LC-1 single-ended interconnects is $31.25; anything more is expensive to me.

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When I mention that $250 is not a lot for speaker cables I am taking into account how expensive some cables are. I would never pay more for cables than I would for a car. I have some cables that are many years old and still doing their job. I wonder what it costs to replace a set of tubes knowing they have a limited life.

I think we all need to spend our money in how we see fit in ways that bring us joy. I as an in home caregiver do not make much money. I do the work because I am good at it and I am rewarded in other ways. I certainly do not have the money to buy something that is not a benefit.

I replaced the power tubes in a Jolida.... 4 Russian tubes at $27 each.

I bought 16 power tubes for my Futterman amps for $250.

Other tubes cost other amounts.

How long a set of tubes lasts depends on the design of the amp or preamp. Or whether the amps owner believes (for some silly reason) that the amp should be left on all the time.

The power tubes in my Futterman monoblocks worked fine for 13 years of heavy use. The power tubes were replaced when bias auto-adjustment circuits were installed.... just because.

I can garantee one thing.

Futtermans driving Tympani will make an improvement over other amps that absolutely dwarfs any improvement that any wire could ever provide.

The conductors in wires should last forever unless they become damaged.

The insulation should last forever in a home enviroment. The voltages are too low to stress the insulation. Other enviroments may lead to damage from, for example, sun exposure or petrochemical attack.

Generators must periodically be rewound to replace the insulation, which is stressed and thereby worn out by the high voltages (i.e. 14,400V).