Speaker Wire Developments in last 10 years? Need advice.

During the last three years of daily use I've had two tubes give up the ghost. One was a Western Electric 2C51 I bought used and the other a brand new JJ EL-84. Money wise that comes to less than $50.

For the price of entry level boutique cables I can buy a matched pair of Shuguang 2a3 Black Treasures plus a quad of NOS triple micas. With those tubes no imagination is required.

I am trying to remember a cable Michael Fremer reviewed for Stereophile. It was a fiber optic cable with a transmitter at one end and a receiver at the other end. The signal would be converted to pulses of light that travels down the fiber optic cable to the receiver where it becomes an audio signal again.

He reviewed it positively but he took a lot of heat. Many found it not up to high fidelity standards. In his system to his ears it sounded good. He did announce he would not use it to review equipment but only for his pleasure.

Other odd technologies were speaker cables with water jackets.

Complication is often best avoided.

Balanced XLR interconnects are probably best if your equipment supports them. These are what I use in the kitchen because I have a 50 ft run and use Mackies. XLR adaptors work but they add expense and bother.

I only have one SS amp I consider competitive with tubes but I still prefer tubie amps with planars.

Since this thread is "Speaker Wire Developments in last 10 years?" I am going to visit some cable sites to see if I have missed anything. I want to read why JPL uses aluminum for their conductors. Crystal Labs is another solid core cable that if memory serves they use gold to fill in any micropores in the silver. Van den Hul used carbon conductors in some of their cables. Many of the cables mentioned are way out of my budget.

AL is subject to oxidation. Some houses burned because it was once fashionable to use AL wires in houses and then those wires oxidized leading to fires. Not good. Also AL is a fatigue-failure pig. Avoid it.

"...use gold to fill in any micropores in the silver" This is a scream.

Carbon conductors? Oh, geeze. Carbon has high resistance w/r/t Cu.....

Honestly, JM, give this a rest. Stop beating yourself.

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Originally Posted by Mash

AL is subject to oxidation.

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Not when alloyed with other materials as is the case here. Ever seen a rusted airliner or military aircraft exterior - even those that are fifty years old?

Geeze, E-S, get with the program.

I did not, nor did I ever, say anytrhing about RUSTED aluminum. Aluminum does NOT rust, by definition.

Only FERROUS metals rust. Understand???????

I said Aluminum OXIDIZES. Which cannot be observed from a distance. ANY distance. And this is the reason Boeing is switching from using AL skins to GpE skins on their turbofan transports. Are you up to speed, yet?

Really, E-S, you should better understand what you REALLY understand, and what you do not understand.

I know this stuff cold.,

Alloy with Al? Tell me how.

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Originally Posted by Mash

And this is the reason Boeing is switching from using AL skins to GpE skins on their turbofan transports. Are you up to speed, yet?

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I referenced aircraft fuselages. Are you paying attention?

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Originally Posted by Mash

Alloy with Al? Tell me how.

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Ask Joe Skubinski.

I was referencing aircraft fuselages.... and wings, too.

Joe is not here, so YOU will have to do.

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Originally Posted by Mash

I was referencing aircraft fuselages.... and wings, too.

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Kindly reference your acronym.

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Originally Posted by Mash

IJoe is not here, so YOU will have to do.

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I can't speak any plainer.

Don't "speak" plainer, E-S. Simply explain your comments. And I have not used any acronyms.... unless you refer to GpE which is Graphite-Epoxy.

So... get on with your comments. And remember that aluminum DOES NOT RUST.

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Originally Posted by Mash

Simply explain your comments. And I have not used any acronyms.... unless you refere to GpE which is Graphite-Epoxy.

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Yes, that is the acronym to which I refer. Do you really not understand why reducing weight is important to aircraft? It really is irrelevant (at least to me) for my cabling.

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Originally Posted by Mash

So... get on with your comments.

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Sorry if you don't understand my response.

Allow me to try, and I mean REALLY try, to educate you here, E-S.

The Boeing Company has derivatives for their aircraft design, and in order of importance, they are:

1. Purchase Price (Self-evident, I hope)
2. Fuel burn (determnined by the efficiency of the engines).

Then, much further down, and I mean MUCH further down, because these modern wings are so very efficient, is



3. Aircraft weight. This is WAY behind Numbers 1. and 2.


GpE is used because it is more reliable than is AL, not because it is lighter. Also GpE can be "tailored" while AL cannot. Yes, E-S, I know my way around GpE.

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Originally Posted by Mash

Allow me to try, and I mean REALLY try, to educate you here, E-S.

The Boeing Company has derivatives for their aircraft design, and in order of importance, they are:

1. Purchase Price (Self-evident, I hope)
2. Fuel burn (determnined by the efficiency of the engines).

Then, much further down, and I mean MUCH further down, because these modern wings are so very efficient, is



3. Aircraft weight. This is WAY behind Numbers 1. and 2.


GpE is used because it is more reliable than is AL, not because it is lighter.

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Now, bring this home to the relevance of audio cable design.

Well, as I recall, you were confused about aluminum being oxidized as opposed to rusted... so YOU brought airplnes into this. Now perhaps you are a little more grounded, as it were, about AL, GpE, and airplanes.

Audio cables? I thought I made that very clear. Al poses real issues when used for conducting electricity. Only Cu, Ag, and Gold can be "trusted" but Cu has proven adequate in all cases. Fu-Fu dust aside, OFC is used for generator armatures and stators with excellent results for very many years now, so why guild the lilly?

P.S. I love the trem "Audio Cable Design". This gives audio cables more gravitas than they deserve.

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Originally Posted by Mash

Al poses real issues when used for conducting electricity.

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Pardon me if I misunderstood your first response.

JPS Labs does not use AL as the conductor. It is simply one component of the multiple metal alloy. The resistance of the alloy is quite low - .016 ohms for the eight foot run of speaker cable I use.

Mixing metals is tricky business. With many unpleasant results that sometimes take time to rear their heads. Simple is better.

The issue with AL is not its resistance per se, but that its oxidants are poor conductors. Cu does not pose these problems. Ag's oxidants are excellent conductors. And gold simply sits there. Why mess with success?

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Originally Posted by Mash

Why mess with success?

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Exactly. I find empirical listening experience more valuable than armchair speculation.

Ahhh... but how do you know what you are really hearing versus what you think you are hearing?

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Originally Posted by Mash

Ahhh... but how do you know what you are really hearing versus what you think you are hearing?

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I really wish I could simply imagine the subtleties of music I (and other experienced ears I know) hear with finer systems using such cables.

It would most certainly be cheaper. :)

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Originally Posted by JohnMichael

Emaidel are your TQ2 silver? .

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Yes, they are. Years ago, I spent what seemed to be a small fortune on a pair of Kimber, solid silver, twisted interconnects that were used between my CD player and preamp. I ultimately found them excessively bright, harsh and with little bottom end. Perhaps the silver in the AlphaCore cable is somehow different, because it sure sounds a whole helluva lot better.

But then, cables don't make any difference anyway, as we've been told. When will we ever learn?

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Originally Posted by emaidel

Yes, they are. Years ago, I spent what seemed to be a small fortune on a pair of Kimber, solid silver, twisted interconnects that were used between my CD player and preamp. I ultimately found them excessively bright, harsh and with little bottom end. Perhaps the silver in the AlphaCore cable is somehow different, because it sure sounds a whole helluva lot better.

But then, cables don't make any difference anyway, as we've been told. When will we ever learn?

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You have to stop listening with your ears and listen with your speculations.

Someday when I grow bat ears I won't have to speculate.:biggrin5:

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Originally Posted by Poultrygeist

Someday when I grow bat ears I won't have to speculate.:biggrin5:

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I see you more in Spock ears. Less ear hair by the way.

@ Mash and PG

Stating the other side of the story is fine. It should have simply been "in my experience with my equipment, I have not seen the benefits of cables vs tubes or other upgrade and tweaks."

You have also missed plenty of cable arguments at AK. I have been involved in some myself there as well as at AVS.

Lets be real honest here too. For the sake of the OP, the first and best upgrade for him would be a real amp to drive the Audience, not sure which he has. They are a tough line to drive no matter what model and most mass market HT receivers will NOT drive these speakers to their fullest potential.(again not sure of model) I have 3 of them myself so can speak from first hand experience.

He may be able to alter his sound by swapping out the ICs between source and receiver more so than with speaker wire.

Just because you don't/can't hear the same differences as others still does not mean it doesn't exist. It just does not exist for you in your experiences.

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Originally Posted by Poultrygeist

Someday when I grow bat ears I won't have to speculate.:biggrin5:

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You can then echolocate!

If you wire fans were actually feeling secure in your wire religion you would not have the need to disparage people like me who disagree with you, now would you? Of course you would not. I do not disparage you, unless you view my non-acceptance of you wire religion as disparagement. E-S would often be overbearing and abusive but I always explained nicely why he was wrong. Perhaps he learned a few things.

From time to time I look back at my life to review what I have contributed to the world. This Jan I searched on my name and I learned that I am described as an inventor. This is true but it is also a small piece of what I did. Some patents are for the world's first high-efficiency gas turbines for producing electricity. A few years back a gas turbine was good if it delivered 17% efficiency. The new base-load GT's my patents are for now demonstrate 60% efficiency in service while the new peak-load units deliver 50% efficiency in service. These are big steps toward slowing global warming. But these are only a small part of what I did and they will be continuing to slow global warming long after I am dead.

So what are you wire-folks doing to contribute to the world? I mean, besides spending time listening to wires.

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Originally Posted by Mash

Perhaps he learned a few things.

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Yes. Boeing plans to save 35% maintenance time using fiber structures over aluminum with the 787 in addition to burning less kerosene.

Your theories about cabling? Zilch! Perhaps some day you'll join those with experience. :)

It is nice to see that your world is so wide, E-S.

I think the subjects that I have mastered have carried me far further and provided me with far more satisfaction than your area of interest has provided you.

I actually feel sorry for you.

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Originally Posted by Mash

I think the subjects that I have mastered have carried me far further and provided me with far more satisfaction than your area of interest has provided you.

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Since you so enjoy talking about yourself, do tell us more!

Does everyone know about your incredible retirement? Here, I'll enrichen the lives of others as well. :)

Remember, I achieved ...

edit: You never did reveal what part of the Russell links you find significant.

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Originally Posted by Mash

If you wire fans were actually feeling secure in your wire religion you would not have the need to disparage people like me who disagree with you, now would you? Of course you would not. I do not disparage you, unless you view my non-acceptance of you wire religion as disparagement. E-S would often be overbearing and abusive but I always explained nicely why he was wrong. Perhaps he learned a few things.

From time to time I look back at my life to review what I have contributed to the world. This Jan I searched on my name and I learned that I am described as an inventor. This is true but it is also a small piece of what I did. Some patents are for the world's first high-efficiency gas turbines for producing electricity. A few years back a gas turbine was good if it delivered 17% efficiency. The new base-load GT's my patents are for now demonstrate 60% efficiency in service while the new peak-load units deliver 50% efficiency in service. These are big steps toward slowing global warming. But these are only a small part of what I did and they will be continuing to slow global warming long after I am dead.

So what are you wire-folks doing to contribute to the world? I mean, besides spending time listening to wires.

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I don't see how I disparaged you. You jumped in the thread claiming that anyone who believes that cables can have an effect on the sound is an idiot, in so many words.

Most everyone else described their personal experiences with cables up to that point.

What do I do besides listening to wires, which there sure are lots of around here since I have 5 decent systems.

My wife and I volunteer at a local Senior Center even tho we cannot be members and are both only 50. I take care of my home and 1/2 acre, my mothers cabin in the poconos, and my mother in laws house in Jersey all while we take care of my father in law who suffers from dementia in a lousy nursing home.

So what are you looking for? A big AR pat on the back?

And what does any of that have to do with the fact that you cant, or don't hear any differences in any wires? And you are free to believe in that as long as you don't trash others who think differently. If you lived close enough, I could easily demonstrate it with ICs.

My wife and I are retired, and are both active in our church. I sing in the church Chancel Choir, and have even performed a couple of solos. The choir also performs whenever there's a funeral service, whether or not we knew the person who passed away.

I also sing in the Spartanburg Festival Chorus, which puts on a performance of at least one great work twice annually. Having been a member of the SFC allowed me the opportunity to travel to Prague last year, and sing (along with 263 others) in the Prague Choral Festival at Smetana Hall.

I also record books for an organization called, "Learning Ally." Its former name was "Recording for the Blind and Dyslexic," so that should give anyone a fairly good idea who uses the material we read. Thousands of students across the country have managed to achieve college degrees as a result of our efforts.

And then too, I purchase new cables and speaker wire, and listen to - and appreciate - the differences. So one can make a difference for others in this world, and still hear the difference between cables.

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Originally Posted by Mash

Ahhh... but how do you know what you are really hearing versus what you think you are hearing?

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And how do you know we are not really hearing anything? You don't.

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Originally Posted by Mash

Now I understand.... Those of us who cannot hear differences amoung cables are defective. I guess we should junk our soundsystems....

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Maybe you should join up with Smokey who claims that if any cable does change the sound in any way is defective....

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Originally Posted by Mash

Give it up, Pg. You are arguing a religeous question. People will hear what they want to hear.

I have read so much nonsense about wires I am forced to wonder how people can have so much free time and money for this.

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This is another problem with Nay Sayers. All they do is read and most of them never even try and experiment for themselves which makes them sheep in the religion of nay sayers.

I don't know what your reference system is but maybe it won't matter for you and that's great because nobody told you to go buy anything.

The last cable thread at AK that was closed was in the TOL forum and was about the fact that even when like minded people who choose on their own to experiment with and talk about real experiences, why do the nay sayers always feel that they have to chime in and save everyone from themselves.

That is what I see you doing here. The OP asked 2 things. If there were significant developments in the last 10 years, and if anyone thought he should upgrade his cables.

Again, if you had nothing in your own experiences to add or to say that you cannot hear any changes when you tried cable x or y, then really all you can add is that you Read something that someone else who didn't try anything wrote.

Also, some of us come by decent cables in odd ways. I got over $2K worth of Synergistic cables when I purchased a whole system for $300. The cables bested what I had so of course I use them.

Let us compare wire to fine foods. I have a friend who can taste a dish and tell you the ingredients used in the preparation. I can enjoy the same dish but other than obvious ingredients have no idea what spices or herbs were used. We are able to agree if we like it.

My sense of hearing seems to be more acute than my sense of taste. I think we all have different abilities so it seems normal that some can hear differences in cables and some are not able. I would not argue with anyone who says they taste saffron in a dish.

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Originally Posted by E-Stat

Absolutely. No do it yourselfer could possibly "make" a high performance cable like Valhalla and there's not much to talk about terminating a piece of Belden . :)

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Perhaps most do it yourselfers. but not all.

jn

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Originally Posted by Mash

Audio cables? I thought I made that very clear. Al poses real issues when used for conducting electricity. Only Cu, Ag, and Gold can be "trusted" but Cu has proven adequate in all cases.

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Historically accurate for in the house use. The big problem was the combination of Al2O3 which is indeed non conductive, with connector hardware designed for use with copper wire. Aluminum has a TCE of 25.5 ppm/degree C, copper at 16.6 ppm/degree C.

However, pigtailing and the use of a flouride paste has solved those in the residential arena, the power company, as well as by those who use aluminum stabilized niobium titanium superconductors.

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Originally Posted by Mash

P.S. I love the trem "Audio Cable Design". This gives audio cables more gravitas than they deserve.

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Perhaps..Perhaps you have taken your assertions a tad far as well.

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Originally Posted by Mash

From time to time I look back at my life to review what I have contributed to the world.

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I too do that...sigh.

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Originally Posted by Mash

So what are you wire-folks doing to contribute to the world? I mean, besides spending time listening to wires.

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For me, the list is long. But actually irrelevant to the discussion at hand. There's really no need to bolseter ones' self as an argumentative tool..

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Originally Posted by Mash

I think the subjects that I have mastered have carried me far further and provided me with far more satisfaction than your area of interest has provided you.

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It is impossible to claim one's satisfaction is greater than another's as you have done. Please refrain.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

This is another problem with Nay Sayers. All they do is read and most of them never even try and experiment for themselves which makes them sheep in the religion of nay sayers.

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No. There are also people you classify as naysayers who attempt to understand why cables possibly could have an effect. Most of the explanations given just don't make the grade. The lack of a viable explanation certainly doesn't make it impossible, but most scientific types can't get past the fodder presented as science.

I approached some neural/hearing researchers about 10 years ago with a well constructed scientific explanation and test setup, they could not get past the foolish cable yaysayer/naysayer garbage.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

The OP asked 2 things. If there were significant developments in the last 10 years, and if anyone thought he should upgrade his cables.

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For IC's and PC's, there has been some significant gains in understandings. For speaker wires, it's a tad more difficult, but yes, some.

jn

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Originally Posted by jneutron

No. There are also people you classify as naysayers who attempt to understand why cables possibly could have an effect. Most of the explanations given just don't make the grade. The lack of a viable explanation certainly doesn't make it impossible, but most scientific types can't get past the fodder presented as science.

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I have no issues with nay sayers that have actually tried for themselves and just post that. My problem is when people who have never tried for themselves just start spouting off about what they have read and believe.

If a person who seriously believes that there are no differences in sound between ANY 2 cables jumps into a thread and claims that anyone who does think they hear a difference is an idiot, and they have never tried it themselves with a system transparent enough to display the differences, then I have a problem.

If the non believer chimes into a thread like this and says "from everything I have read, along with personal attempts with my own system, I cannot hear a difference and do not believe they exist" then that is an appropriate response, not that I am an idiot and have wasted all my money and so on.

Non belief is no less of a religion than those who do believe.

Again tho I will state that I have not played around with enough Speaker Cable to have a strong belief one way or the other but I do own ICs that alter the sound depending on the components connected to as well as where in the chain they reside.

You don't have to believe it, and maybe if I demonstrated it in my home you would not hear it. And that is fine too because at that point, you would have actually tried as opposed to just repeating whatever you have read and believed up to that point. Then you could post about your real world experience instead of quoting or paraphrasing what others have written, and a lot of times without actually trying it out first.

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Originally Posted by Hyfi

You don't have to believe it, and maybe if I demonstrated it in my home you would not hear it. And that is fine too because at that point, you would have actually tried as opposed to just repeating whatever you have read and believed up to that point. Then you could post about your real world experience instead of quoting or paraphrasing what others have written, and a lot of times without actually trying it out first.

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Is your use of the word "you" directed at me, or is it being used generically at those you classify as "naysayers"? A term I abhor btw, as well as that of yaysayer..

jn