Power cords

[BillyB]

I have always heard about the noticable difference upgraded power cords can make with components.I never completely understood the premise.A friend recently upgraded the power cord on his amp and swears the difference in sound quality is significant with all else the same.Of course you can also change out the pre-amp and CDP if you believe it's worth it.

Just wondering if you guys have a strong opinion on this issue.Like all cable debates I'm sure this one is very subjective.Then of course there is how much do you spend on the cords.I found a site that seems very legit and makes their own cords for under $100.

Last question is this.Most cords have a female end that plugs into your component.I have an older Rotel Amp I like quite a bit that is hard-wired through the back.Does anyone know if an internal connection could be made properly with a new cord.If not of course I can pull the cover.Thanks for any input.

[Resident Loser]

I have always heard about the noticable difference upgraded power cords can make with components.I never completely understood the premise.A friend recently upgraded the power cord on his amp and swears the difference in sound quality is significant with all else the same.Of course you can also change out the pre-amp and CDP if you believe it's worth it.

Just wondering if you guys have a strong opinion on this issue.Like all cable debates I'm sure this one is very subjective.Then of course there is how much do you spend on the cords.I found a site that seems very legit and makes their own cords for under $100.

Last question is this.Most cords have a female end that plugs into your component.I have an older Rotel Amp I like quite a bit that is hard-wired through the back.Does anyone know if an internal connection could be made properly with a new cord.If not of course I can pull the cover.Thanks for any input.

...it's BS...the only reason those IEC connectors exist is as a result of manufacturing concerns...and pffft...a cottage industry (and the mythology surrounding it) was born...

P.S. Don't futz with hardwired stuff...to put the proper connector into an existing unit will require more trouble than it's worth...

jimHJJ(...you may wanna' duck...)

[PeruvianSkies]

You are opening up the biggest bag of worms here, but I'll provide my response regardless.

I have been using Acoustic Zen power cords on all of my gear for the past year+, which includes my amps and my DVD/CD/SACD player(s). I wouldn't exactly say that the cord makes a huge improvement in the sound as much as it does the performance in general. It's different with each component as well and differs in probably all setups as each one is different and things react differently.

What I noticed with my amp is that it seems more stable and delivers more drive. I guess you could say that the amp feels more 'alive'.

The DVD/CD/SACD player on the other hand did not really change sonics, which is good, but the player seems happier to be getting better power. I notice that the machine itself seems to operate much smooth and just doesn't seem fussy.

I am sure you will get a variety of responses here, but that's mine.

[BillyB]

You are opening up the biggest bag of worms here, but I'll provide my response regardless.

I have been using Acoustic Zen power cords on all of my gear for the past year+, which includes my amps and my DVD/CD/SACD player(s). I wouldn't exactly say that the cord makes a huge improvement in the sound as much as it does the performance in general. It's different with each component as well and differs in probably all setups as each one is different and things react differently.

What I noticed with my amp is that it seems more stable and delivers more drive. I guess you could say that the amp feels more 'alive'.

The DVD/CD/SACD player on the other hand did not really change sonics, which is good, but the player seems happier to be getting better power. I notice that the machine itself seems to operate much smooth and just doesn't seem fussy.

I am sure you will get a variety of responses here, but that's mine.

Thanks for the input.Yes the dreaded cables issue.Truthfully I would have never given this a moments thought if not for my friend's claim.He is very serious about his audio yet I still have reservations regarding his claim.He also gave me the link for these supposed great quality yet very reasonable cables.

My problem with the cable issue is this.Do you go on the premise you have to buy very expensive cables in order to hear a difference.The expectations become higher relative to cost, and of course the disappointment higher if they don't help.If you buy less expensive cables are they enough of an improvement over OEM to justify changing them.Also less of a disaster if they don't help.Not easy stuff.

I'm still intrigued by an Amp power cord upgrade.They draw the most power and a cord with higher gauge conductors and better shielding isn't an outrageous premise.Of course the cord on my amp is rated for the amperage of my amp, but it does look very bony compared to the power cords I've been looking at.More copper means less resistence so who knows?

Part of the obsession with this hobby is always trying to achieve better sound.This can leave us wide open to spending money on things that don't really work.I have already spent quite a bit of money on components,speakers,interconnects, and bi-wire speaker cable.This would be my last tweak and I'm on the fence about it I would love to hear from someone very technically versed on this theory.Many of the professionals do say these cords make a difference,but they do admit results vary and are often hard to even notice.

I like to get into the nuts and bolts of these issues as most of these matters can be proved or disproved through science.Of course our ears are the most important test.I just like to know all I can before buying any of this stuff.

[PeruvianSkies]

Thanks for the input.Yes the dreaded cables issue.Truthfully I would have never given this a moments thought if not for my friend's claim.He is very serious about his audio yet I still have reservations regarding his claim.He also gave me the link for these supposed great quality yet very reasonable cables.

My problem with the cable issue is this.Do you go on the premise you have to buy very expensive cables in order to hear a difference.The expectations become higher relative to cost, and of course the disappointment higher if they don't help.If you buy less expensive cables are they enough of an improvement over OEM to justify changing them.Also less of a disaster if they don't help.Not easy stuff.

I'm still intrigued by an Amp power cord upgrade.They draw the most power and a cord with higher gauge conductors and better shielding isn't an outrageous premise.Of course the cord on my amp is rated for the amperage of my amp, but it does look very bony compared to the power cords I've been looking at.More copper means less resistence so who knows?

Part of the obsession with this hobby is always trying to achieve better sound.This can leave us wide open to spending money on things that don't really work.I have already spent quite a bit of money on components,speakers,interconnects, and bi-wire speaker cable.This would be my last tweak and I'm on the fence about it I would love to hear from someone very technically versed on this theory.Many of the professionals do say these cords make a difference,but they do admit results vary and are often hard to even notice.

I like to get into the nuts and bolts of these issues as most of these matters can be proved or disproved through science.Of course our ears are the most important test.I just like to know all I can before buying any of this stuff.

They power cables that I used list for $300/each, which is rediculous in my book. I would NEVER have spent that money if I wasn't able to snag them up for $80/each. They are incredible for that price. I'd be weary as to how much you spend on power cables alone. Try PS Audio, they make some terrific cables and also have a few price tiers for all levels of interest.

[daviethek]

the PS Power Punch is about 50.00 at AA. It is different enough from standard power cords so that it might make some differences to your ears. If you don't notice any difference, return the cord, give up the search, and squirrel the money away for the next major component upgrade instead.

[Resident Loser]

...I'm still intrigued by an Amp power cord upgrade.They draw the most power and a cord with higher gauge conductors and better shielding isn't an outrageous premise.Of course the cord on my amp is rated for the amperage of my amp, but it does look very bony compared to the power cords I've been looking at.More copper means less resistence so who knows?...

...it's all so wrong...A simple question...if the power cord has a higher gauge than the stuff that's in your wall, or the wiring that's in your amp/receiver, what would be the benefit? D@mned if I can figure it out...

You can buy UL approved cords that have shielding to deflect RFI/EFI/ EIEIO but, IMHO the last thing you need to shield is a PC as there are umpteen different places this sonic hash can enter your signal path...and make note, that was signal path...which is a few steps removed from the AC that comes out of the outlet and through the cord and is magically transformed into low voltage DC in the power supply section, which is what your electronics run on...

Skinny power cord? Well, the big diff in most of the aftermarket stuff is the fact that it is usually sheathed in some techie-looking braid or some other material and terminated in huge, hardwired (as opposed to molded), sometimes yellow, sometimes orange, perhaps even hospital-rated male/female connectors...OOOHH! big and impressive...until you realize they have to be bigger because they use screw terminals for the wire termination and the connectors themselves are fastened together...all thost fasteners take up beaucoup room, hence SIZE...which conveniently, and simply as a naturally occurring byproduct, gives the appearance of being some hard-core bit of hardware...sorta like most of the street-based "SUV"s out there...Bigger don't mean squat...

And again are these aftermarket gems UL approved? Some folks pooh-pooh the question (your insurance company won't), but there is one mfr. who shills these wares and funny thing, the only item they sell that has UL approval is a fairly run-of-the-mill IEC cord that's way, way down in their pricing structure...their higher priced stuff isn't...Hmmm, wonder why...Molded ends, no braiding...probably right out of the box from China...

As one of the more hands-on, techie types who posts now and again, jneutron terms most of the hype "flooby-dust" and has, in the past, here and at other sites, given pretty good evidence why he uses that term...

jimHJJ(...suffice it to say, the physical evidence of hype I've pointed out should alone give one pause...)

[kexodusc]

Nobody used 'em better than The Who, IMO.

...it's all so wrong...A simple question...if the power cord has a higher gauge than the stuff that's in your wall, or the wiring that's in your amp/receiver, what would be the benefit? D@mned if I can figure it out...

You can buy UL approved cords that have shielding to deflect RFI/EFI/ EIEIO but, IMHO the last thing you need to shield is a PC as there are umpteen different places this sonic hash can enter your signal path...and make note, that was signal path...which is a few steps removed from the AC that comes out of the outlet and through the cord and is magically transformed into low voltage DC in the power supply section, which is what your electronics run on...

Skinny power cord? Well, the big diff in most of the aftermarket stuff is the fact that it is usually sheathed in some techie-looking braid or some other material and terminated in huge, hardwired (as opposed to molded), sometimes yellow, sometimes orange, perhaps even hospital-rated male/female connectors...OOOHH! big and impressive...until you realize they have to be bigger because they use screw terminals for the wire termination and the connectors themselves are fastened together...all thost fasteners take up beaucoup room, hence SIZE...which conveniently, and simply as a naturally occurring byproduct, gives the appearance of being some hard-core bit of hardware...sorta like most of the street-based "SUV"s out there...Bigger don't mean squat...

And again are these aftermarket gems UL approved? Some folks pooh-pooh the question (your insurance company won't), but there is one mfr. who shills these wares and funny thing, the only item they sell that has UL approval is a fairly run-of-the-mill IEC cord that's way, way down in their pricing structure...their higher priced stuff isn't...Hmmm, wonder why...Molded ends, no braiding...probably right out of the box from China...

As one of the more hands-on, techie types who posts now and again, jneutron terms most of the hype "flooby-dust" and has, in the past, here and at other sites, given pretty good evidence why he uses that term...

jimHJJ(...suffice it to say, the physical evidence of hype I've pointed out should alone give one pause...)

Ah gee whiz, RL, there ya go again, makin' sense with them big fancy words of yours...

[gjpham]

....A friend recently upgraded the power cord on his amp and swears the difference in sound quality is significant with all else the same.Of course you can also change out the pre-amp and CDP if you believe it's worth it.....

Ask your friend you could please come over so he could demonstrate it for you, before and after. I have Q which apply for both of you.
1/ How old is the house (30+ year)?
2/ How much is the system cost roughly?

[DEVO]

I would like to say hi to everyone on this forum since this is my first reply...

Cables...Cables...Cables...the hated conversation!

Well...hear is my thought!

I spent over 15 years in the audio / video industry selling different manufactures. TV's, pre-pros, receivers, speakers, cables, etc. Heard all the demos from Audioquest, Monster, etc.

Every product will seems to give a different response. I happen to have one of the Audioquest NRG-5 (10 ft=$910) power cables hooked up to my plasma (PRO1130HD). I didn't really see that much difference from the manufactures power cable.
Now years ago I saw it on a different plasma (Mitsubishi forget model #) and it made a huge difference.
Now I'm not trying to beat on Mitsubishi or brag on Pioneer. But not all products will make a difference w/ a simple upgrade of power cord.

If you are itching to try it, go to your local hi-fi store and buy one. (Find out their return policy first). Try it out, see if their is a difference and go from there.

[PeruvianSkies]

I would like to say hi to everyone on this forum since this is my first reply...

Cables...Cables...Cables...the hated conversation!

Well...hear is my thought!

I spent over 15 years in the audio / video industry selling different manufactures. TV's, pre-pros, receivers, speakers, cables, etc. Heard all the demos from Audioquest, Monster, etc.

Every product will seems to give a different response. I happen to have one of the Audioquest NRG-5 (10 ft=$910) power cables hooked up to my plasma (PRO1130HD). I didn't really see that much difference from the manufactures power cable.
Now years ago I saw it on a different plasma (Mitsubishi forget model #) and it made a huge difference.
Now I'm not trying to beat on Mitsubishi or brag on Pioneer. But not all products will make a difference w/ a simple upgrade of power cord.

If you are itching to try it, go to your local hi-fi store and buy one. (Find out their return policy first). Try it out, see if their is a difference and go from there.

And maybe this is why some people notice a difference and others do not, which is certainly cause for the debate. Each person is encountering different results it's no wonder why people are going back and forth with each other on the subject. I've said this all along and also went a step further and got into some real thick matters by saying that you are only going to notice certain tweaks if your system is actual good enough to tell that difference. If you replace the power cord on your Comcast cable box that's going to be different that on a Goldmund Reference CD player. It is the same with speaker cables...not all speaker types are going to respond with a difference that makes it seem worthwhile.

I don't see any end in sight for this debate, so I guess we'll just keep going back and forth. (BRACES HIMSELF FOR THE WAVE OF REPLIES GOING AGAINST WHAT I JUST SAID)

[BillyB]

Ask your friend you could please come over so he could demonstrate it for you, before and after. I have Q which apply for both of you.
1/ How old is the house (30+ year)?
2/ How much is the system cost roughly?

My system cost me approximately $6K.My friend who is swearing by the power cord difference has a system that cost closer to $3K.I'm definitely going to ask him to let me listen to the system with the OEM cord vs the supposedly upgraded cord.My house is 50 years old but if you're getting at wire age or circuit issues that isn't a factor for me.I ran a dedicated circuit for my A/V and stereo system.If not I'm open to suggestions.

For whatever it's worth I think the site for the power cords he is swearing by is direct cables.A 7' cable would run me about $100 made to length.I have a very reputable audio shop I use and I'm going to speak to the owner regarding this issue.He's one of the most well versed audiophiles I've met and won't talk me into this idea unless he believes in it.He's never steered me wrong regarding my system and frequently tells me when an audio theory is nonsense.

[mlsstl]

A couple of observations.

1. No power cord, regardless of cost, can add more power than what is available at your wall socket. If you've got 15 amps/115 volts at the wall outlet, you're not going to get 16 amps/120 volts at the equipment end of an expensive power cord.

2. The only two things a power cord can do are: a) deliver as much of what is available at the outlet to the other end of the power cord, and b) reject the pickup of extraneous noise (RF/EMI type stuff.) Of course, if one is picking up a lot of noise in the 3' from the wall to the equipment, one would have to wonder what the wire just on the other side of the wall is picking up. That said, a cable could act as a simple filter, but a simple and inexpensive circuit could also do the same thing.

Wire, just like any other product in the world, can be of higher or lower quality, but given the function I've never seen an explanation I buy that justifies power cords in the hundreds to thousands of dollars range.

One other factor in cable evaluation is it is very difficult to weed out expectation bias, especially in the home environment. Some products just have an appearance that strongly suggests they should be helping things sound better.

However, that doesn't bother me much. A lot of effort generally goes into the aesthetic design of our equipment and audiophiles generally enjoy looking at their neat-looking stuff. It is perfectly OK to allow a good-looking product help coax our minds to a greater sonic enjoyment of our system.

However, overall I am in the camp that tends to be rather skeptical of many of the claims made for power cables, particularly the very high priced ones

[PeruvianSkies]

I've thought of a way to somehow communicate what I feel any type of cable does, whether it be a power cable or a speaker cable.

Cables are like bridges...they are transporting something from two points. The cable or the bridge does NOT change what is coming across, such as cars across a bridge. However, a bridge that is built better helps the car travel from those two points. Power cables are not going to deliver MORE than what is available at the outlet...true, but the construction of various cables can impact how it goes from the outlet to the component.

So what I am essentially saying is that if we a higher grade cable as opposed to a generic cable than the difference quite possible could be that the weaker cable does not deliver the full potential of what is available from the outlet, where the higher grade cable could be giving closer to 100% of that potential. Similarly if you have two bridges built of contrasting qualities it doesn't change what is coming across as much as it changes how effectively it comes across. You go drive faster, more reliably, and more controlled across a sturdy iron bridge as oppossed to a rickety wooden bridge.

I hope that makes sense to some. I can't think of any way to put it clearer. I am NOT in the camp that believes cables are the end all be all of upgrades, but I do feel they allow your equipment to become more effective. Once again, they are not going to give more than they get. This goes for both power cables or speaker cables.

[Resident Loser]

...this:

So what I am essentially saying is that if we a higher grade cable as opposed to a generic cable than the difference quite possible could be that the weaker cable does not deliver the full potential of what is available from the outlet, where the higher grade cable could be giving closer to 100% of that potential...

...would be something measureable with a VOM and/or ammeter...a simple comparison of voltage in vs. voltage out or current draw...I've not seen any claims for such improvement of these rudimentary parameters...It's always the unsolicited accolades of some sonic improvement which relies on what can only be charaterized as specious and anecdotal opinion rather than the two test instruments I've mentioned.

And just where would that disappearing power go off to? Would it most likely become heat; something the UL would probably find fault with along with any substantial, measureable drops.

jimHJJ(...strictly objective...)

[E-Stat]

I have always heard about the noticable difference upgraded power cords can make with components.I never completely understood the premise.

The miles and miles argument about power cords completely misses the point. RFI is a real issue in many homes. I have two wireless access points, five CD/DVD players, three digital cable boxes and four wireless phones. Not to mention other sundry devices with digital components that spew hash back into the AC line. The biggest source of RFI is usually quite near the amplifier - your CD player. I find value to the use of shielded cords in my systems. The differences as with all cable improvements, however, are subtle. I would work improving other aspects of the system first.

Does anyone know if an internal connection could be made properly with a new cord.If not of course I can pull the cover.Thanks for any input.

Can be done, but probably not worth the effort. I rewired the captive cord in an older Pioneer CD player, but it does require some electronics expertise. I built a number of Dynaco kits and other DIY projects in my youth.

rw

[BillyB]

The miles and miles argument about power cords completely misses the point. RFI is a real issue in many homes. I have two wireless access points, five CD/DVD players, three digital cable boxes and four wireless phones. Not to mention other sundry devices with digital components that spew hash back into the AC line. The biggest source of RFI is usually quite near the amplifier - your CD player. I find value to the use of shielded cords in my systems. The differences as with all cable improvements, however, are subtle. I would work improving other aspects of the system first.


Can be done, but probably not worth the effort. I rewired the captive cord in an older Pioneer CD player, but it does require some electronics expertise. I built a number of Dynaco kits and other DIY projects in my youth.

rw

I believe in the premise that RFI can have an effect on the power sources and the cables in close proximity to them.It's virtually impossible to keep the power cables and interconnects,etc away from each other.For whats it's worth my dealer's theory is the biggest improvement would be in the digital sources.He recommended the Diamonbacks which are supposed to be very good for their $200 cost.I'm in no rush on that but will try the amp power cord as I was given one that had the wrong style cord end for his application.
All other aspects of my system are recently upgrade so this is just one of those what if issues we all wrestle with.

I bought the reciever end for the back of the amp for $25 and am more than capable of installing it.A no risk experiment.If I notice a difference at some point I will buy the Diamondback for my CDP which is the Arcam 192T and is of a high enough quality to possibly justify trying this.
Not to change the subject but I see there is a huge market for power conditioners with some being serious money.Are they just a more high tech way of accomplishing this cleaner power that theoretically improves the performance of our A/V equipment.If they're not for real than at the
price of some that is truly a questionable product choice.

Anyway thanks for the replies as I realize this is far from a black and white issue but that's what this forum is for.I will post if I notice a real difference and I will give it time to ensure it's not a placebo effect.

[royphil345]

I tend to take the "middle of the road" approach here...

I'm not sure if shielding AC cords or using AC cords of a heavier gauge than the house wiring for short distances would help... Maybe... Haven't been tempted to spend the time and money necessary to find out.

Although... I've always been a believer in making sure every connection is a good one. Hospital grade outlets make sense to me for under $20.00. Really grab those plugs. I make my own distribution boxes using them if necessary. I make sure my plugs are clean and in good condition or replace with hospital grade when necessary. I've heard about an audio mag article where they performed an experiment using an electric coffee pot. Water boiled more quickly when the pot was plugged into a hospital grade outlet.

http://www.takefiveaudio.com/mall/sh...69&cat=Hubbell

[Resident Loser]

...replacing the power cord on my Waring Professional blender will make superior margaritas...less Residual Floobydust Interference...

jimHJJ(...yep...)

[PeruvianSkies]

...replacing the power cord on my Waring Professional blender will make superior margaritas...less Residual Floobydust Interference...

jimHJJ(...yep...)

We are all aware that you are unconvinced about the difference that cables make, so instead of bursting in with your smart comments, why not just leave the rest of us alone with our 'high-end cables' since we are all a bunch of fools. You simply can't let it rest. You can't let those who wish to enjoy this hobby enjoy it, instead you are set out to prove or disprove all aspects of this hobby in order to debate and argue with us. If the rest of us who want to spend money for tweaks here and there are satisfied than why do you care? Why can't we just enjoy it without it always becoming a huge issue?

[MikeyBC]

I really didnt think it could matter but i honestly did hear a difference on a Bryston 3B amplifier once using a Tara Labs power cord, and even if i "think" i'm hearing a difference then it really is a difference and that makes it worthwhile to me.

[PeruvianSkies]

I really didnt think it could matter but i honestly did hear a difference on a Bryston 3B amplifier once using a Tara Labs power cord, and even if i "think" i'm hearing a difference then it really is a difference and that makes it worthwhile to me.

This is exactly why those who "DON'T hear or notice that difference should just stay in their camp and leave the rest of us alone. There is no use debating back and forth as neither side is going to move. There are far too many variables in this argument to really come to any conclusions anyway.

[Resident Loser]

We are all aware that you are unconvinced about the difference that cables make, so instead of bursting in with your smart comments, why not just leave the rest of us alone with our 'high-end cables' since we are all a bunch of fools. You simply can't let it rest. You can't let those who wish to enjoy this hobby enjoy it, instead you are set out to prove or disprove all aspects of this hobby in order to debate and argue with us. If the rest of us who want to spend money for tweaks here and there are satisfied than why do you care? Why can't we just enjoy it without it always becoming a huge issue?

...life is a learning experience. I'm quite comfortable with the possibility that some day, and some way there will be incontrovertible proof that will disabuse me of my POV...it just ain't happened yet...

You, however, seem to be deathly afraid of the flip-side of the coin...and all I am doing is presenting that side to the inquiring noobs, lest they fall prey to the pile of sh...shennanigans wrapped in the Tiffany gift box...

What really speaks volumes is your equating a seventeen word aside about a Waring blender as a "huge Issue"...

jimHJJ(...if your skin gets any thinner, you may need to be re-classified as an amphibian...)

[E-Stat]

...less Residual Floobydust Interference...

If you're up for a quick experiment regarding "floobydust", take a CD player - any player including your battery powered Walkman and hold it near to an AM radio tuned off station. Notice any difference?

rw

[markw]

Where never is heard a discouraging word and we ain't Roy Rogers.

News Flash! This heah is da real world, where people say what they want and those that object to different opinions can go home to mommy and cwy in their milk.

Noiw, unless you can come up with something aside from what essentially boils down to "Well, YOU shut up! I don't want to hear your opinion. Only mine counts", then please refrain from demeaning the spirit of this forum by commenting.

And, please note, I mention no names here. You can either take this advice or admit it's true.