Optical Cable Question

[mixadude]

Yeah, and it's also immune to ground loops as a transmission medium.

But at some point the signal gets down from light to electronics and even in the digital world the electronics are susceptable to both RFI and ground loops, it's just harder to detect than in analog.

[AudioBack]

There are three kinds of poeple who post on this subject. The first understands the fundimentals of audio electronics and says "ITS DIGITAL!!!! CABLES MAKE NO DIFFERENCE!!!!" The second says "I tried both and coax sounds warmer and optical sounds too bright." The third says " I tried both and heard absolutely no difference." Who is right? Sorry, the tech heads win on this subject. It IS digtial. On or off. There is no 20 to 20kHz running through a digital cable. It is a code. Digital is a square wave that cannot be mistaken for only half on. The reason why cheap cables do effect analog sound is because different frequencies travel at different speeds and different places inside the wire. Analog is way more vunerable to interference being noticable due to the fact that that the analog signal is the last stage before amplification. It would take an awful lot of noise to make the D/A converter to think on when it should be off. For the people who do hear this monumental difference between coax and digital, here's an idea. Use the same CD or DVD player and connect both outputs to your reciever and switch off. Don't Compare your PS2 to your XBOX360 to Denon DVD player. Yes I have tried them both, and not even with an official "COAX" cable. I used a good quality monster rca against a good quality monster optical. Absolutelty no difference. At first I wanted the optical to be better and almost biased my ears to make it sound better. But the truth is if you are out of optical connections on your reciever, use coax. If you're out of coax connections use optical. All game systems have optical outputs and no coax. Hook your game systems up optical and your cable/sat and DVD player up coax. It doesn't matter. About the expense of the cables you should buy. I paid 40 bucks a set for all my analog connections for 3 ft cables. Why not more expensive? I don't believe my current setup is capable of producing sounds that would need a 300 dollar cable. Why not cheaper? I have no hums, no channels cutting out on me due to shorts in the wires, and noticably better sound quality than that of a 3 dollar cable. Digital connections are one 50 dollar monster optical purchased at 25 with a Best Buy discount. The others are Acoustic research for 15 to 20 a piece. All cables have good build quality and have been moved around several times without damage. I have yet to "Break" an optical cable. I read that some guy bought a 150 dollar optical and it broke. I don't normaly make it a habit to walk my dog with my cables. Anyway, if you listen to anything that I say, just hear this. Stay away from the "GOLD PLATTED" optical cables.

[blackraven]

Very good post AudioBack. I just got into an argument with a friend on this exact same subject. There should be no difference in sound between Optical and Coax digital as its a digital signal of 1's and 0's. Either signal is getting through or it isnt. I think people that hear a difference are just fooling themselves. There was a test done by a cable manufacturer who assembled a group of audio experts and asked them as a group to rate the changes in sound quality of different high end cables. This was a blind study and the same cheap cable was used each time without ever changing to high end cables. The end result was that each time the experts were told that a cable had been changed, they heard a difference in sound quality! Nice example of the placebo effect!

[hermanv]

Hello AudioBack;

I think maybe you only have part of the information about how this works and why Toslink originally had difficulties..

SPDIF has an embedded clock, that means that some of the data was signal and some was used to recover the data clock from the same bit stream. Early digital devices had difficulty recovering a jitter free clock signal fom the plastic fishing line (only a slight exageration) called Toslink. You see those marevolous transisions from one to zero or back ended up at the far end of a Toslink connection with a significant slope, this leads to indecision in the clock recovery circuit called jitter. Most modern outboard DACs have fixed this (basically an electronic flywheel).

In those early devices both the glass fiber and coax offered audibly superior perfomance; really people do not make this stuff up. Its not so much as half on as on or off, as it was too soon or too late. A digital stream must include not only the voltage level for a given sample, but also the information as to when to shift to this new sample from the old sample. This information needs to be presented pretty much as accurately as the voltage level in order to fix the instantaneous voltage on the input to the signal recovery filter.

If you buy a used early DAC this is still largely true, most modern DACs just don't care. Coax is both cheap and readily available it is largely immune to noise and offers a very good generic solution.

[Dusty Chalk]

It's not that black and white. I get an audibly inferior signal every time my transport -- which is also an SACD player -- switches from off to on (generating a PCM signal). If that's the case, then it's not as simple as "it works or it doesn't". There's also jitter, and reflections, which may cause the receiving DAC to experience jitter that wasn't there at the output of the transport.

[StevenSurprenant]

I went from a plastic cable to a glass cable and clarity improved. Was it a worthy improvement? Most definately! I will keep the glass cable in the circuit unless something better comes around.

By the way, I've been gone from this forum for a very long time because several people had decided that it was their right to ruin our audio hobby with their anti-cable garbage.

Personally, I do not welcome their opinions. nor do I listen. I would classify them as the terrorists of audio. They refuse to let us enjoy our interests, and will do everything to sour the experiance. They are closed minded and more importantly, they only care about their own opinion. DAM Terrorists!

I would reccomend to everyone here that they post thier questions about cables and don't respond to these self centered idiots.

[markw]

By the way, I've been gone from this forum for a very long time because several people had decided that it was their right to ruin our audio hobby with their anti-cable garbage.

Personally, I do not welcome their opinions. nor do I listen. I would classify them as the terrorists of audio. They refuse to let us enjoy our interests, and will do everything to sour the experiance. They are closed minded and more importantly, they only care about their own opinion. DAM Terrorists!

I would reccomend to everyone here that they post thier questions about cables and don't respond to these self centered idiots.

No wonder nobody missed you.

But, if we ever want a one-sided lecture with no opposing views allowed, we know where to find you.

...and I call myself an elitest jerk? I bow to you. I'm not worthy.

[StevenSurprenant]

Since I've been gone so long I will respond this once.

This is exactly what I was talking about.

Your opinion is that if I don't agree with you, you will troll me...

What makes you think that when people ask about cable qualities or recomendations they are asking for an opposing view?

Why do you think that because I don't buy into your wire doesn't make a difference concept that I am closed minded? I used to believe as you did until proven wrong. It doesn't make sense that wires do sound different, but they do. I was opened minded enough to consider the other opinion, you are stuck in yours and if someone doesn't agree with you, they are wrong.

I know that this is falling on deft ears, but you've been told.

You've been trolling this forum for years now and it's still the same old story. Yes, I remember you.

[GMichael]

Since I've been gone so long I will respond this once.

This is exactly what I was talking about.

Your opinion is that if I don't agree with you, you will troll me...

What makes you think that when people ask about cable qualities or recomendations they are asking for an opposing view?

Why do you think that because I don't buy into your wire doesn't make a difference concept that I am closed minded? I used to believe as you did until proven wrong. It doesn't make sense that wires do sound different, but they do. I was opened minded enough to consider the other opinion, you are stuck in yours and if someone doesn't agree with you, they are wrong.

I know that this is falling on deft ears, but you've been told.

You've been trolling this forum for years now and it's still the same old story. Yes, I remember you.

Welcome back.

But why so rude right out of the box? Calling people Terrorists if they don't agree with you? What's up with that?

[markw]

And you have made your point . It's just not the point you wante4d to make.

Your opinion is that if I don't agree with you, you will troll me...

So disagreeing with you is trolling? Grow up. I call it just pointing out an arrogant fool who, surptisingly enough, sees himself as the second coming. What size hat do you need to fit that ego in?

And, there's always this gem from your previous post,

Personally, I do not welcome their opinions. nor do I listen.

Yeah, right. You've made it abundantly clear that only your opinion counts. Well, maybe to you and a few weak willed and less learned fools who buy your BS without question, but you ain't the world.

Yeah, you made your point, all right. You're just another a pompous sphincter who thinks they know everything and the whole world is wrong, except those who agree with you.

Welcome to the big city, kid.

But, I do thank you for complimenting my hearing abilities. (you might want to check out the definition of "deft")

[markw]

But why so rude right out of the box? Calling people Terrorists if they don't agree with you? What's up with that?

Note his total number of posts. He didn't like what he saw here and went away crying because people had the sheer audacity to disagree with him.

He's your typical audionazi who doesn't want to hear (or even allow) anything that he doesn't agree with.

[StevenSurprenant]

Welcome back.

But why so rude right out of the box? Calling people Terrorists if they don't agree with you? What's up with that?

I love the audio hobby very much and still do. Many years ago I frequented this site often. This site was a blessing for those trying to learn about audio. We could talk about the things we liked and ways to tweak the system to make it sound better, it was great. However, every time when I went to the cable section of the forum and asked for recommendations, I would get barraged with these people telling me that wire was wire. I didn't ask for them for their opinion, nor was it welcomed. I wanted to hear from people that had cables they liked.

After a couple of years of these hecklers responding to every post with their naysayers attitude, I left the forum. I didn't want to put up with their harrassment any longer. Frankly, I don't understant their need to try and force their belief on others. I felt bad for the first time poster who got blasted when they would ask for a cable recommendation. It just went on and on...

Today I came back to the forum hoping that things had changed for the better, but no! You may feel that I was wrong blasting these, as I called them, terrorists, but many of us had left the forum because of them. They serve no useful purpose and do nothing to but cause negativity.

I have nothing against them for expressing their opinion, it's just that they never stop.

Anyway, When I started reading the forum today, it brought back memories of all the grief that these people caused.

My apologies...

Steve

[noddin0ff]

grief?

[markw]

grief?

Well, If I hear people arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, I don't feel bad in asking them to show them to me before I acknowledge they even exist. I guess not being able to do so can cause grief.

Frankly, I don't understant their need to try and force their belief on others.

But, It's obvious feels perfectly justified in forcing his beliefs on others. I guess that's different.

I have nothing against them for expressing their opinion, it's just that they never stop.

Well, considering this thread has been fairly dormant for quite some time, I'd say this is a textbook example of the pot calling the kettle black.

IToday I came back to the forum hoping that things had changed for the better

Up to today, it had.

You may feel that I was wrong blasting these, as I called them, terrorists, but many of us had left the forum because of them.

As I said earlier, it HAS changed for the bettter.

They serve no useful purpose and do nothing to but cause negativity.

Gee, I haven't seen any negativity here until you popped your head up out of the primordial slime. Isn't that what's callled a "self-fufilling phrophecy"?

Anyway, When I started reading the forum today, it brought back memories of all the grief that these people caused

Like my momma always said, "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen". If this forum causes him that much stress, he should seek psychiatric help immediately, and I mean that seriously. Personally, I don't care if he strokes out, but his belligerant posts here indicate that he's the the type that might wind up in a bell tower with a 30-06 picking off people as they walk by.

[GMichael]

As the light changed from red to green to yellow and back to red again, I sat there thinking about life. Was it nothing more than a bunch of honking and yelling? Sometimes it seemed that way.

Was that you this morning? Wake up will ya?! I've got places to go, things to see, people to do.

StevenSurprenant,
You didn't bother me at all. Was just curious as to why you were so darn mad. Did markw park in front of you too?

[hermanv]

Hi StevenSurprenant:

I agree that glass fiber will be superior to plastic fiber and that the difference will affect sound quality in some, but not all systems. The difference has to do with how the signals are processed in the receiver (D to A) portion, a good design will recover enough timing information that cable differences all but disappear. Early D to A designs seemed to forget that not only was it important to decide which of 65,536 instantaneous voltages to assign to the D to A output, but that it was equally as important to decide exactly when to assign the newest sample value.

To return to your point, I also believe that coax is an even better solution. Why? It’s not so much that the bandwidth of coax is better than glass, it’s not. It’s the shortcommings of the consumer SPDIF system. Commercial glass fiber data systems use laser diodes for the controlled light source and pin diodes for the signal detectors. Both of these devices reach well into the Gigahertz frequencies (read very fast edges). On the other hand home electronics SPIF ports use an LED and a photo transistor; these are probably a thousand times slower than their commercial light driver/receiver counterparts. By being so much slower they give up many of the advantages of fiber.

Coax drivers and receivers are easier to build and will typically have exceptionally good bandwidth. Coax is dirt cheap and a good performer, the home cable networks send TV signals for 40 or more channels over miles of the stuff with very little signal degradation.

If your equipment has the standard RCA jacks for coaxial data, give it a try, it’s inexpensive. Given that you are already using glass, it’s likely that any differences would be small.

[StevenSurprenant]

Hi StevenSurprenant:

I agree that glass fiber will be superior to plastic fiber and that the difference will affect sound quality in some, but not all systems. The difference has to do with how the signals are processed in the receiver (D to A) portion, a good design will recover enough timing information that cable differences all but disappear. Early D to A designs seemed to forget that not only was it important to decide which of 65,536 instantaneous voltages to assign to the D to A output, but that it was equally as important to decide exactly when to assign the newest sample value.

To return to your point, I also believe that coax is an even better solution. Why? It’s not so much that the bandwidth of coax is better than glass, it’s not. It’s the shortcommings of the consumer SPDIF system. Commercial glass fiber data systems use laser diodes for the controlled light source and pin diodes for the signal detectors. Both of these devices reach well into the Gigahertz frequencies (read very fast edges). On the other hand home electronics SPIF ports use an LED and a photo transistor; these are probably a thousand times slower than their commercial light driver/receiver counterparts. By being so much slower they give up many of the advantages of fiber.

Coax drivers and receivers are easier to build and will typically have exceptionally good bandwidth. Coax is dirt cheap and a good performer, the home cable networks send TV signals for 40 or more channels over miles of the stuff with very little signal degradation.

If your equipment has the standard RCA jacks for coaxial data, give it a try, it’s inexpensive. Given that you are already using glass, it’s likely that any differences would be small.

Thanks hermanv,

Actually, I had tried both optical and Coax and settled on optical. Never the less, I wasn't aware of the information that you presented above. Something to keep in mind!

Thanks

Steve