Optical Cable Question

[royphil345]

When you consider that a cheap plastic optical cable is about 1/8" wide, there are going to be bends in the cable, and the inner walls are reflective... How could you not have some jitter?

Wouldn't a cable that's thinner to begin with, and is made up of 250 separate fine strands that do not crosstalk be more accurate?

Best thing would be to listen THEN talk though... lol at another "EXPERT" who hasn't compared the two cables and therefore has NO EXPERIENCE with the subject being discussed.

[mixadude]

Jitter isn't loss, it's jitter. Kinda like rocket science isn't brain surgery.

look at yer hands. got all yer fingers?

look again, are they shaking?

now ya knows one more fing bout digital.

egad, i'm too old for this.

So I don't listen to the feeds that I get paid a King's ransom for???? yer nutz

[royphil345]

Who said anything about loss? Jitter is error in timing. One good cause would bends in a crappy, fat plastic toslink.

Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

The difference is not at all small. My plastic toslink sounds like crap. The glass much better. And for some reason, coax better still.

"So I don't listen to the feeds that I get paid a King's ransom for???? yer nutz"

How the heck would listening to anything through one type of cable help you discern how it might sound through another? yer nutz... and judging by your arguments, probably a little intoxicated.... I would hope anyway!!!

[mixadude]

Who said anything about loss? Jitter is error in timing. One good cause would bends in a crappy, fat plastic toslink.

Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

The difference is not at all small. My plastic toslink sounds like crap. The glass much better. And for some reason, coax better still.

maybe you should treat you're kit wiv a little more respect. Also if you think you have a faulty piece, you should toss it. But... simple loss will still not present as jitter.

I'm done wiv you. PPL pay me very large sums of money to make stuff work and don't argue wiv me. FO in due respect or lack of it as the case may be

[royphil345]

That's your best argument? You totally miss the point and say FO??? LOL LOL LOL

...too bad they're probably going to erase all this......

[mixadude]

How the heck would listening to anything through one type of cable help you discern how it might sound through another? yer nutz... and judging by your arguments, probably a little intoxicated.... I would hope anyway!!!

OK, I'm back. And maybe I'm nutz for doing so. I will say that when I do this stuff (we) i use glass since we go so far. But I've never heard an appreciable difference for short distances. Also to be fair, we use the good stuff.

But!!! I still don't buy that if you can achieve a link at all that any possible distortion might be from any FO cable. But like I said, OK I'll listen. But!!! so far all you got is flames. Nothing substantial. It's on you.

[royphil345]

Hello? What are you talking about? What's on me?

Just basically suggested anyone stuck with only an optical connection try a glass cable because it sounded better to me. They don't cost any more than some of the plastic cables at Wal-Mart. I don't sell them. I don't care the least bit who tries one and who doesn't. Nothing's on me!!!

I don't care how strongly anyone disagrees. I didn't say anything to deserve being flamed by you or that other guy. Especially since you both really had nothing at all to say on the matter besides flaming me.

[mixadude]

I'm sorry, sometimes this stuff makes me laugh. I recently (in the last 3 months) built a 900 point mixed analog and digital patch bay for a major TV show on one of the big 3 here in the states. My supervisor came by and pointed to a wire that was (not) questionably misplaced. He said well it looks like you're one jack off, at which point I chimed in and joined the chorus. LOL One jack off! I laughed so hard!!!

[mixadude]

What's on me?

Just suggested anyone stuck with only an optical connection try a glass cable because it sounded better to me. They don't cost any more than some of the plastic cables a Wal-Mart. I don't sell them. I don't care the least bit who tries one and who doesn't. Nothing's on me!!!

I don't care how strongly anyone disagrees. I didn't say anything to deserve being flamed by you or that other guy.

Ok fine then, you're clean and I'm nutz

[mixadude]

next time ask me an easy one

[mixadude]

That's your best argument? You totally miss the point and say FO??? LOL LOL LOL

...too bad they're probably going to erase all this......

LOSFL you're in a topic that includes the abbreviation FO and don't even know it

[royphil345]

They're probably going to start erasing way before FO!!!... and context is everything sometimes.

[royphil345]

I didn't even say proof. Said I heard a difference in the cables and that's how it was explained to me. The people who sell 'em use the jitter argument also. Would hate to think there's any dishonesty in the Hi-Fi biz!!! Actually, it's probably true. Nowadays they'd probably be busted for making false claims about a product.

Also heard that reflections could be an issue.

It did make sense to me that reflections off the inside walls of a thicker cable would cause some blurring or jitter or something...

There must be a reason you use glass for longer runs. There has to be some difference. Audible? I say yes. So do alot of other people. I've even read reviews by people who prefer the plastic cables because they sound warmer.

[mixadude]

LOL! Sorry dude I thought you went asleep. Nah, this is funny. I would like to see proof of jitter though!

[royphil345]

How did those last posts reverse positions? We broke Audio Review!!!

[mixadude]

I didn't even say proof. Said I heard a difference in the cables and that's how it was explained to me. The people who sell 'em use the jitter argument also. Would hate to think there's any dishonesty in the Hi-Fi biz!!!

Also heard that reflections could be an issue.

It did make sense to me that reflections off the inside walls of a thicker cable would cause some blurring or jitter or something...

There must be a reason you use glass for longer runs. There has to be some difference. Audible? I say yes. So do alot of other people. I've read reviews by people who prefer the plastic cables because they sound warmer.

Well if you must know, I don't really know. But,,, I was Chief Engineer at a company that specialized in fiber. That's all done now, but several alliances still apply and I defy the likes of you to come between me and my guys. So Fiber Optics. Get it?

Never know who you'll meet here. Just be glad you did

[mixadude]

Oh, BTW, you don't know what you're talkin about. you're nutz!!!

[noddin0ff]

Well if you must know, I don't really know. But,,, I was Chief Engineer at a company that specialized in fiber. That's all done now, but several alliances still apply and I defy the likes of you to come between me and my guys. So Fiber Optics. Get it?

Never know who you'll meet here. Just be glad you did

dude-
You haven't put up a single FACT to counter anything royphil has stated. You've just been rude and inserted a lot of smilies. For someone who claims to be wise and experienced, I'd at least expect you to know what jitter is before you question its existence. You sound like you just got out of high school and had your first beer.

I don't happen to believe optical cables make much of a difference but the reason I believe that is because most DAC's can fully compensate for jitter. Different cables and couples from what I've read can introduce jitter in a signal for exactly some of the reasons royphil mentioned as well as refractive index differences between the materials of each component, which he didn't. If royphil can hear it on his system I'll skeptically take him at his word.

[royphil345]

Thanks noddinOff!!!

I've also been thinking that maybe there's really more than just jitter happening here. I'm having problems wording this correctly... but here goes...

Isn't jitter just simple timing error? Like some of the pulses of light to the DAC arriving a fraction of a second too early or late? Seems to me that with a thicker cable, you'd end up with the same signal arriving at slightly different times (with different parts of the light beam being reflected off of the cable walls more times and taking slightly different routes through the cable)? Sort of a "blurring" or "ghosting" effect as opposed to just plain jitter? Might this cause some correction errors in the DAC?

I'M NOT PRETENDING TO KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS AT ALL!!! Just a hypothesis, or question if someone knows the answer. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Just trying to figure out if there could be a scientific reason for the differences I heard by thinking about it, instead of simply spouting out things I think I know with no facts to back them up.

[mixadude]

Thanks noddinOff!!!

I've also been thinking that maybe there's really more than just jitter happening here, because you end up with the DAC receiving different beams of light at the same time (actually the same beam of light, parts of which are reflected in different directions) with different amounts of jitter? So the signal is more "blurred" than if all the light reaching the DAC had the same amount of jitter? Might this cause some correction errors in the DAC? I'M NOT PRETENDING TO KNOW ANYTHING HERE!!! Just a hypothesis, or a question if anyone knows. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. At least I'm actually thinking about it, instead of just spouting out what I think I know without any facts to back me up.

Look into my eye. Usually I find that a can of air will fix most fiber problems. Sometimes thought it takes a tdr to locate the break or crimp. As for plastic or glass? OK if you say so.

Here's some more smilies

[royphil345]

Well... You can't STILL be drunk. Only thing you've proven to anyone is your complete lack of credibility, tact, and knowledge. Congrats!!!

I'd say that even if you are still drunk after all this time, the lack of credibility thing would still apply!!!

[mixadude]

Very nice. When yas get done lookin at the eye and actually try to learn something instead of spoutin and poutin, go look in the mirror.

Note: no smiley here.

[royphil345]

What was I supposed to learn from that? If you're so experienced, why can't you discuss a not so complicated concept in your own words? 'Cause you're just a rude, dumb kid is my bet.

...Big smiley in mirror... ROTFLMAO at you completely losing it and showing everyone here the truth about you!!!

[mixadude]

As far as I know, most errors in FO transmission occur at the ends, unless there is some damage somewhere along the medium, and those can be located with tdr. When i find one that's acting up I just get another. When we do long runs we install many extras just for this purpose, so we aren't trying to polish an end there in the field, in a big hurry.

I suppose glass might be more optically pure than plastic. I'm pretty sure i remember there are also wavelength capability differences, but if a system is designed properly then I doubt if it would matter. Most likely the ends are the biggest difference between a cable that sounds good and one that doesn't.

[royphil345]

So, what your saying is, you specialize more in operating and troublshooting FO systems. You haven't compared glass and plastic cables for sound quality in a Hi-Fi system, or really looked into the differences between them. Why all the flak then?

...And you again want to make it perfectly clear that you know what a TDR is (where does that fit into any of this?). Does your daddy work with FO systems?

ROFLMAO!!!