Newbie asking a not-so-smart question about cables....

[02audionoob]

The thing I don't think I understand about the Roger Russell story, which of course many of us have read before, is that it seems to imply that cable in the range of $0.92 per foot somehow qualifies as an over-hyped specialty cable. There's wire on the bulk rolls at Home Depot that costs almost that much. Every day on Audiogon you can find speaker wire for hundreds or even thousands of dollars.

[Mr Peabody]

As admitted by the author the only thing they proved is the test group couldn't hear the difference between Monster and zip. Two or three samples is a poor test to make a stance on.

Stereo Review, namely Julian Hirsch, also wrote and held the platform there weren't any differences between amps of good quality. Controversy sells magazines. Hmmm.... just as it might draw attention to a certain brand of hi fi gear.

In 1983 there weren't that many cable companies around. I did work for an audio store in late 80's and early 90's and that was around the time we first toyed with Audioquest. Cable companies for the most part have flurrished. You can't believe that entire industry has grown to what it is based on nothing but imagination. If that works so well why do other products and companies come and go. Despite your position no one but a fool just wants to throw money away. There has to be some value of product to the purchaser.

The article also says people want to think there's a difference because they don't want to feel they threw their money away. As I stated before, that part of the equation is easily removed by simply borrowing or buying with return policy. There is absolutely nothing to lose.

I really don't understand the resistance or fear of cables. People want to attack cables like no other tweak. And, I really have to wonder why Gowan would care less whether another company sold or people used boutique cables any way. The whole thing seems rather strange. He don't seem to mind when people spend ridiculous money on his product. Is he a consumer advocate against anything else?

I wonder what makes us think we hear any difference between two boutique cables when trying to decide which to go with...... I guess then it comes down to which looks best in our room or the coolest in our mind. Blue is peaceful, that one must be warmer, red insights rage and a power color that's the one I want, it will make my bass really slam.

[markw]

MARKW:
You ignored this question/comment and went right on the attack. Why?
Can't deal with the real world???

It's funny how "you guys" stoop to that when the facts don't bolster your side. Seems like you're due for a breakdown and perhaps an extended stay at an asylum might be in order.

As for the answer, i don't really care what Mr P (or you) hear, or think you hear. It's your little world and your money. Whatever makes your pointed little head happy. It's just that I feel a duty to offer a more balanced side of the situation for any who might be listening.

i.e. it's no skin off my teeth if you believe you can fly like superman off the side of a building. Go right ahead. But, when you tell others that it's a jolly good idea, well then, I feel compelled to step in.

That's pretty much the same as saying there are "night and day" differences between cables of similar length and construction, which is a given in these discussions, at least with rational people.

And, hoccum you fine it necessary to post two posts in a row directed towards me instead of putting it in one post? Lack of an attention span? Can't figure out the edit function? That might have a bearing on why we're having this discussion.

If you can't keep a simple thought in your head for more than a few seconds, or comprehend and use a simple tool, do you really expect me to believe you can comprehend and remember what you hear from one minute to the next?

FWIW, I do find it curious that no cable manufacturer, or even a consortium, has ever taken it upon themselves to actually prove (and you know what I'm talking about) that the claimed superiority of their product is clearly audible to the bulk of the population* instead of depending on the religious fervor of it's sycophants. Think of what a boon it would be to their business! And, it would end this petty bickering.

Now, to pour salt on your ADD driven rants, pleast not ethat I nevenrsaid all cables are the same.

Go ahead, check it out. It's in my first post here I believe.

I'll wait.... (dah te dum dum de da de de doo)

OK, are you back now? Did you see where I said they are subtle? Do you disagree?

And, being subtle, that mean that most people would want to be danged sure that it's really really there and it's worth the price differential, no? The greater the price difference the more sure I would want to be unless, of course, money is no object.

So, unless you want to take the "night and day difference" side of this discussion, perhaps you should cut your losses.

And, being subtle

[Mr Peabody]

Markw, choose one position and stick with it. So which is it, all cables are the same or they aren't but it's subtle? First you want to claim no difference, now it has to be night and day. The term "night and day" is as subjective as neutral or any other adjective used to try and describe sound.

[RoadRunner6]

The term "night and day" is as subjective as neutral or any other adjective used to try and describe sound.

Correction: The term neutral does not describe sound (as in a sound of its own) but a lack of sound, implying that there is no affect on the sound by the cable.

[markw]

Markw, choose one position and stick with it. So which is it, all cables are the same or they aren't but it's subtle? First you want to claim no difference, now it has to be night and day. The term "night and day" is as subjective as neutral or any other adjective used to try and describe sound.

I can't recall ever saying something as simplistic and absolute as "all cables sound the same". Can you show me where i said that, or are you simply contructing a straw man here.

Allow me to enter into evidence some text from my first post in this thread.

And, the point of diminishing returns is lower than advertisers might have you believe. I seriously question the veracity or critical listening abilities of anyone who claims a "night and day" difference between two cables of similar construction. Subtle, perhaps under some ideal conditions, but how closely must one listen to realize it. Is it sustainable in real-world conditions?

I believe it was post number three. I don't believe I've said anything to contradict that here, do yo?

Now, granted, the term "night and day" was originated by the OP, and my initial response was to him.

But, here's your input from post 11 in this thread.

"Night & Day" is a subjective term but there have been at least two occasions I can recall that I thought came pretty close because the difference should have been heard by a deaf monk.

Dunno, but that pretty much sounds to me like an endorsement for "night and day" differences.

[IBSTORMIN]

It's funny how "you guys" stoop to that when the facts don't bolster your side. Seems like you're due for a breakdown and perhaps an extended stay at an asylum might be in order.

As for the answer, i don't really care what Mr P (or you) hear, or think you hear. It's your little world and your money. Whatever makes your pointed little head happy. It's just that I feel a duty to offer a more balanced side of the situation for any who might be listening.

i.e. it's no skin off my teeth if you believe you can fly like superman off the side of a building. Go right ahead. But, when you tell others that it's a jolly good idea, well then, I feel compelled to step in.

That's pretty much the same as saying there are "night and day" differences between cables of similar length and construction, which is a given in these discussions, at least with rational people.

And, hoccum you fine it necessary to post two posts in a row directed towards me instead of putting it in one post? Lack of an attention span? Can't figure out the edit function? That might have a bearing on why we're having this discussion.

If you can't keep a simple thought in your head for more than a few seconds, or comprehend and use a simple tool, do you really expect me to believe you can comprehend and remember what you hear from one minute to the next?

FWIW, I do find it curious that no cable manufacturer, or even a consortium, has ever taken it upon themselves to actually prove (and you know what I'm talking about) that the claimed superiority of their product is clearly audible to the bulk of the population* instead of depending on the religious fervor of it's sycophants. Think of what a boon it would be to their business! And, it would end this petty bickering.

Now, to pour salt on your ADD driven rants, pleast not ethat I nevenrsaid all cables are the same.

Go ahead, check it out. It's in my first post here I believe.

I'll wait.... (dah te dum dum de da de de doo)

OK, are you back now? Did you see where I said they are subtle? Do you disagree?

And, being subtle, that mean that most people would want to be danged sure that it's really really there and it's worth the price differential, no? The greater the price difference the more sure I would want to be unless, of course, money is no object.

So, unless you want to take the "night and day difference" side of this discussion, perhaps you should cut your losses.

And, being subtle

I have a life besides this forum so no, I haven't figured out the edit functions yet.

YOU can't seem to answer them when I ask them, so who is lacking in attention?

You started and continue the insults. YOU aren't worth my time.

[E-Stat]

Well, I guess it's time to haul Mr. Roger Russell out again and then get another lesson in illogical reasoning and debating from our resident Golden Eared Audiophiles.

Speaking of illogical reasoning, the *tests* (such as they are - the 5% resistance notion is an assumption) prove what they prove only on that which was used. Which, by the way, is never stated. Components, content, etc. So much for applying the scientific method. Oops. Science also dictates that extrapolation of test results from decades ago to a completely different environment with every variable having been changed is wholly without merit. Oops again. If you wish to invoke the mantle of science, then perhaps you might find another instance where it is relevant to this discussion.

BTW, I trust you got permission before reprinting the article. Otherwise, you are willfully violating copyright.

rw

[markw]

I have a life besides this forum so no, I haven't figured out the edit functions yet.

YOU can't seem to answer them when I ask them, so who is lacking in attention?

You started and continue the insults. YOU aren't worth my time.

Actually, I believe I've covered all the bases. I'd say you either didn't understand the answers, or they simply didn't suit you.

Remember, you jumped in the water feet first flinging insults.

[Auricauricle]

Who wants a beer?

[E-Stat]

Who wants a beer?

Thanks for the offer, but I'm enjoying a G&T at the moment. Its a rainy, rainy day here in central AR. A perfect day for listening.

rw

[markw]

Who wants a beer?

Thanks. Got a cold Killian's Irish Red? Just got back from walking around an Arboretum with the Mrs W and that would taste real nice.

Normally I'm a T & T man myself, but somehow Killian's has been tickling my taste buds. Mebbe I'm gettin' old.

[RoadRunner6]

BTW, I trust you got permission before reprinting the article. Otherwise, you are willfully violating copyright.

Thanks for the warning E-Stat. I have no idea what the rules are about posting quotes that one finds on the web at a forum like this. I see links and quotes posted all the time so I guess I figured once it is published on the web it is OK to reference it unless you would be slandering, etc. I did reference Mr. Russell but I didn't think he would object to using his findings.

Please set me straight on this if you or anyone is absolutley sure on this as I do not want to get into trouble with Mr. Russell or anyone else.

Thanks,
RR6

PS: "..........Science also dictates that extrapolation of test results from decades ago to a completely different environment with every variable having been changed is wholly without merit..........." Sure, OK.

[E-Stat]

Thanks for the warning E-Stat. I have no idea what the rules are about posting quotes that one finds on the web at a forum like this.

My comments have nothing to do with this forum. Read the clear verbiage at the top of R-Rs page here.

Please set me straight on this if you or anyone is absolutley sure on this as I do not want to get into trouble with Mr. Russell or anyone else.

Follow his instructions. Presumably, he wouldn't mind but I will not attempt to speak for him.

rw

[RoadRunner6]

I had presumed the copyright laws would only prevent me from using his material in my own book, article, etc. as if it were my own ideas. I said: "I have no idea what the rules are about posting quotes that one finds on the web at a forum like this" because I figured either the copyright protection would not apply here as I was posting in an online forum or that they just would not bother since this was not in fact the purpose of the copyright laws.

I might be way off base here and that is why I was asking. Yes, I now did read the copyright statement you linked but there are lots of simialar legal statements that don't hold any water in certain circumstances. A good example is everytime I go skiing I see a sign that the ski area is not responsible for any injury I might experience. (of course in many cases that statement is nonsnense)

Your comment: " I trust you got permission before reprinting the article. Otherwise, you are willfully violating copyright." sounded rather definitive and I was in immediate danger of being sued. My purpose here in trying to clafiy this is not to argue or to not sound appreciative that you brought this up.

Again, I see many quotes in posts on online forums that are probably technically covered by copyright laws. The practical question from me would be, is this something that we actually need to avoid doing on any forum?

Thanks for any more comments. I didn't mean to get off track here. Maybe a thread on this would be a good idea.

RR6

[moves]

what about canare cables? any good?