I need help with audio interconnects????

[Monstrous Mike]

First of all, as the other poster said, I'm not a believer in cable sonics. I'm not a disbeliever, either. But I lean towards "extremely skeptical". Hell, I haven't even heard differences in sighted listening! I own fairly cheap cables and I may as well just keep them since they're out of favor with the current market and they work fine. All I'm requesting is a level playing field. There is no "proof" either way and I'm not going to play along as though there is. Your second to last paragraph is exactly the way things should read around here from the scientific community, not the posts that say there is no way cables can make a difference. The latter is a claim and I'll need proof of that claim, just as I would be asked to supply proof if I claimed Cable A sounded better than Cable B. That's all I'm saying.

You're right. Perhaps I have been reading too many of e-stat's post and it is clouding my view of everything.

There is no concrete evidence either way in this cable debate, however, current laws of physics and electricity point to it being unlikely that cables sonics exist, especially to the extent claimed by some people's anecdotes.

But I still stand behind my assertion that it is not up to people who do not believe in cable sonics to prove it. That would be impossible. On the other hand, it would only take a proper test with two cables, one basic, one exotic and show that they sound different. And as a bonus, a scientist could then investigate and discover the reason for the difference. That would prove the cable believers side of the arguement. This is infinitely easier than me disproving their side.

Thus, I don't believe the burden of proof is equal to both sides since the amount of work needed to disprove cable sonics greatly outweighs what could be used as evidence for cable sonics.

[rb122]

. Lawyers may have elevated the weasel to the defacto national mascot,

Excellent!

As to your other post, I can understand them requesting the additional clarification if they feel the poster (me, in this case) isn't aware of all the qualifiers. I am. There are several - have to use music instead of pink noise, someone hear differences while sitting a couple inches from their speakers, guage of wire, etc etc etc. So I don't feel the need to mention each and every one each and every time.

I'm not a "wire guy" either but I've always appreciated your take on things audio - if it gives you pleasure and you perceive an improvement, nothing else matters with respect to your listening. I concur. But I bristle at all the demands for proof of claims from one side when claims fly on the opposite side with no proof. A level playing field, please, gentlemen, and then on with the debate.

[Rockwell]

But I bristle at all the demands for proof of claims from one side when claims fly on the opposite side with no proof. A level playing field, please, gentlemen, and then on with the debate.

Can you be more specific on what claims have been made?

[rb122]

Can you be more specific on what claims have been made?

Sure, as long as you don't ask me to name them with dates, etc. The biggest and most boisterous claim I've read on this site is that cables all sound alike and before I get into trouble again, add all the usual disclaimers. This claim is that people are wasting their money on cables, they are imagining things, they are foolish for believing, etc. There is no proof of this claim, just as there is no proof of cable sonics.

I'm really not concerned with cables, to be honest. But I've heard the same claim made with respect to electronics and whereas it's been demanded of me that I supply proof of what I've heard, I've seen no proof from the other side.

We can have a board where we all get together and share experiences or we can have a board where only scientific proof will suffice. Which is it going to be? It doesn't seem to work as both.

[rb122]

You're right. Perhaps I have been reading too many of e-stat's post and it is clouding my view of everything.

There is no concrete evidence either way in this cable debate, however, current laws of physics and electricity point to it being unlikely that cables sonics exist, especially to the extent claimed by some people's anecdotes.

But I still stand behind my assertion that it is not up to people who do not believe in cable sonics to prove it. That would be impossible. On the other hand, it would only take a proper test with two cables, one basic, one exotic and show that they sound different. And as a bonus, a scientist could then investigate and discover the reason for the difference. That would prove the cable believers side of the arguement. This is infinitely easier than me disproving their side.

Thus, I don't believe the burden of proof is equal to both sides since the amount of work needed to disprove cable sonics greatly outweighs what could be used as evidence for cable sonics.

I don't disagree with your assertion. And you make a great point that if this test were performed and differences found, having the scientist then investigate might lead to even better cables. Perhaps that idea might prompt a few "yeasayers" to undergo some testing???? If better cables could be made because scientists understand what makes them better, those NBS cables might cost...oh...$1000/meter instead of $3000. Yikes!

But you have to admit that you "believe" that cable sonics don't exist - you don't "know" it. Granted, your belief is based on solid scientific knowledge but it's still a belief rather than a fact. And I think you grasp that but others apparently do not.

[mtrycraft]

I don't disagree with your assertion. those NBS cables might cost...oh...$1000/meter instead of $3000. Yikes!

.

Or, they could be made and sold for only $.50ft at Home Depot.Since no evidence exists that HD $.30/ft cable is any different from that $1000/m cable, why would it be so difficult to marginally improve it for that $.20/ft?

[Rockwell]

Sure, as long as you don't ask me to name them with dates, etc. The biggest and most boisterous claim I've read on this site is that cables all sound alike and before I get into trouble again, add all the usual disclaimers. This claim is that people are wasting their money on cables, they are imagining things, they are foolish for believing, etc. There is no proof of this claim, just as there is no proof of cable sonics.

I'm really not concerned with cables, to be honest. But I've heard the same claim made with respect to electronics and whereas it's been demanded of me that I supply proof of what I've heard, I've seen no proof from the other side.

We can have a board where we all get together and share experiences or we can have a board where only scientific proof will suffice. Which is it going to be? It doesn't seem to work as both.

If you can't supply specifics, then you are just generalizing and misinforming.

[rb122]

Or, they could be made and sold for only $.50ft at Home Depot.Since no evidence exists that HD $.30/ft cable is any different from that $1000/m cable, why would it be so difficult to marginally improve it for that $.20/ft?

It probably wouldn't. But it wouldn't sell to audiophiles at $.50/ft.

[rb122]

If you can't supply specifics, then you are just generalizing and misinforming.

With all due respect, I find it impossible to believe that someone who has posted 142 times on this board could have missed them! If you feel I am "generalizing and misinforming" then please don't take my word for it. Do some research on this board or simply hang around awhile longer.

[Monstrous Mike]

If better cables could be made because scientists understand what makes them better.....

This is really one of the roots of my suspicions that cables sonics don't exist. In science and engineering, new research by scientists is applied by engineers to build new, or improve existing products or devices or systems. There is a very well known process of discovery, application, design and testing, Then these results are analysed and improvements are implemented where necessary.

Even in the commercial cable industry, these principles are followed and the best cable for a given application is used. However, none even come close to the pricing of home audio cables, even custom military cables which I am familiar with and have ordered.

In general, the home audio cable industry has not followed these principles as far as I can tell. It may be they found that people simply bought more expensive cables and they didn't need to go the usual route for product improvement. I really don't know.

But you have to understand that as an engineer myself, I can only look at the entire exotic cable industry as a bunch of witch doctors, as do all of the other engineers I know and most other engineers around here too. They may still be on to something but given the lack of information on research, testing, etc., then they are either lucky or ahead of their time.

I have investigated many areas of engineering either for the need of my job, or simply for professional curiousity. The whole audio cable industry sticks out like a sore thumb by having a complete lack of adhering to standard protocols for product or system development.

[Rockwell]

With all due respect, I find it impossible to believe that someone who has posted 142 times on this board could have missed them! If you feel I am "generalizing and misinforming" then please don't take my word for it. Do some research on this board or simply hang around awhile longer.

I've been here for years, and and I can't deny that some or all those things have been said at one point, but you are accusing a whole group of making those statements.

[Rockwell]

With all due respect, I find it impossible to believe that someone who has posted 142 times on this board could have missed them! If you feel I am "generalizing and misinforming" then please don't take my word for it. Do some research on this board or simply hang around awhile longer.

Saying that there is no evidence to suggest that cables* are audibly different from one another is different from saying that all cable sound alike. They may sound different, but no one has demonstated that they are.

* usual disclaimers for adequate guage etc

[rb122]

I've been here for years, and and I can't deny that some or all those things have been said at one point, but you are accusing a whole group of making those statements.

If that's how I've come across, I will publicly apologize to those I have accused and say that it was not my intent to do so. The only group I am targeting is the group that makes claims unsupported by proof. They reside on both sides of the debate and that's my whole point.

[rb122]

But you have to understand that as an engineer myself, I can only look at the entire exotic cable industry as a bunch of witch doctors, as do all of the other engineers I know and most other engineers around here too. .

I appreciate your stance. My only small reply would be that the designers of these exotic cables are also engineers and scientists and have a different outlook on the industry than you do. But it's probably hard to get them to explain their premises without getting into all the hype, I would imagine.

[skeptic]

I have tried to keep an open mind about audio cables. The companies that make and sell them don't make it easy. The burden of proof is on them to show that their more expensive product is better and therefore worth the extra cost. They haven't done it. I have no doubt that the infinitely inventive mind of man can eventually design an audio cable which sounds different than other cables. And whatever that difference is, there will be at least some people who will say it is better. But different doesn't always mean better and they have the burden of proof to demonstrate that as well. It is entirely plausible that the ordinary cables we have been accostomed to using for many decades do their job so well that further audible improvement is impossible. In fact, that is what all of the scientific evidence available points to. Far from being developed in a vacuum, these products were developed over a period of a hundred years and their applications, characteristics, and requirements are well understood by both the manufacturers and professionals who have relied on them. The exotic cable industry is on the other hand targeted strictly at a consumer market which lacks the sophistication, knowledge, and often skepticism to make critical judgements as to their worth. That is the principal reason as I see it that this cottage industry has flourished as it has.

As for engineers, they are people just like everyone else and they don't always make or sell products that they belive in. They are in business to make money whether as employees or as owners of companies and not everyone has the scruples to reject involovement with products which may be fakes but at the very least harm nobody except for their bank accounts. This is not like patent medicine which might cause customers to forgo true medical treatment or cause injury. Nobody ever got hurt or died from buying exotic audio cables as far as I know.

[rb122]

Insightful post. Thanks.

"Nobody ever got hurt or died from buying exotic audio cables as far as I know."

Well, I threatened the salesman that sold the Audioquest to me but I didn't follow through!

[Monstrous Mike]

I appreciate your stance. My only small reply would be that the designers of these exotic cables are also engineers and scientists and have a different outlook on the industry than you do. But it's probably hard to get them to explain their premises without getting into all the hype, I would imagine.

Here's something else to chew on. Some audio cable companies have no scientists or engineers at all on staff. Entrepreneurs simply order custom cable from a cable manufacturering company like Belden, perhaps getting them to add this twist or that braid, and then cover it with a thick, colorful plastic jacket. All that is needed after that is a business man and a marketer. No need for testing.

Further, engineering has a code of ethics, much like the Hippocratic Oath that doctors take. I have a stamp that I put on any work I do as an engineer signifying I stand behind my design. I really like to see some stamps on those cable designs. But then again, if no testing documentation or research and design process dcoumentation is presented, and people still pay through the teeth, then there's nothing that can be done. We don't know if these cables were designed and tested by engineers or made up by business people who know the limits of advertising and what they can get away with.

[mtrycraft]

But it wouldn't sell to audiophiles at $.50/ft.

That's the problem. Many think it must cost a lot to be considered worthy in their homes or approval by like minded folks

[skeptic]

"Further, engineering has a code of ethics, much like the Hippocratic Oath that doctors take. I have a stamp that I put on any work I do as an engineer signifying I stand behind my design. "

I wouldn't want people to get the wrong idea about engineers. They run the gamut from genius to incompetent, from those with the highest ethics to pure skunks. There are many incompetent engineers with PE licenses that I've met in my life who will not only stamp anything for money, they will illegally stamp the work of other people who did not work under them. In some states, that is a crime called "planstamping" an in my state, it is punishible by a $2800 fine per offense. Each drawing stamped is another offense. It can also lead to suspension or revokation of the PE's license. It doesn't stop some people though. If you do stamp drawings I hope you have malpractice insurance for errors and omissions. In some cases, the stamping engineer is liable "in perpetuity" meaning for life, even if the company he worked for went out of business.

I don't think there is much risk or even any need to stamp drawings or specifications of audio cable. You just bid out what you want to half a dozen or a dozen manufacturers and they supply as much as you want OEM with your name and Logo on it. If it comes from someplace where quality control is poor such as many factories in the far east, you may get an inferior product. So that expensive audio cable with whats his name's brand on it may be low quality mass produced goods dressed up to look like something of value but not up to the standards of Belden or its competitors. Buyer beware.

[rb122]

Monstrous Mike & Skeptic (and all others!)

You should check out the General Asylum for the post regarding JPS Labs. They have allegedly repackaged standard Eupen wire (complete with the model #) in a new jacket and resold it for a very handsome increase in price. Sorry I don't know how to post the link. I'm not saying it's true but it's an interesting topic in light of your recent posts on this board.

[rb122]

That's the problem. Many think it must cost a lot to be considered worthy in their homes or approval by like minded folks

I had a visit from a musician friend who is also a staunch dyed-in-the-wool audiophile. He gave my cables a mild "pooh-pooh" and said I needed to upgrade them to bring them in line with the rest of my equipment. I told him the Audioquest was already overkill in terms of price and certainly no better than the equal of the cheap stuff (yeah, that's a claim. Shame on ME! ). He was practically beside himself with frustration and told me I'd never get the full measure of my equipment without at least $500 worth of speaker wire and $300 for interconnects.

I know you've been working on this type of problem for a long while but you have a great distance yet to travel, my brother!

[E-Stat]

Sorry I don't know how to post the link. I'm not saying it's true but it's an interesting topic in light of your recent posts on this board.

Use the "a href" html command. What text follows becomes the title:

JPS Response


rw

[Resident Loser]

...ask him if he's ever seen what wiring is used at his friendly neighborhood recording studio...typically, it's plain ol' Belden or it's equivalent...there are exceptions, but that's a whole 'nother thing!

You must spend $800 on wire? Poppycock!!! Sounds like he's parroting the party line...

jimHJJ(...one can be a musician, one can be an audiophile, one can be both...one can also be misled by their own self-importance...)

[Monstrous Mike]

You should check out the General Asylum for the post regarding JPS Labs. They have allegedly repackaged standard Eupen wire (complete with the model #) in a new jacket and resold it for a very handsome increase in price. Sorry I don't know how to post the link. I'm not saying it's true but it's an interesting topic in light of your recent posts on this board.

Thanks for the link. I used to read that forum but some of those guys are really out there.

My personal thought on this cable debate and many other aspects of home audio is that a lot of it is related to our social self-vision. Out of the threads relating to JPS cables, the most interesting tidbit I uncovered was some work by turn-of-the-century sociologist Thornstein Veblen and his theory about "conspicuous consumption". It seems that this theory proposes that people will consume products to elevate their social status (in a very rough nutshell). As well, it also appears that among people who subscribe to this social climbing, that an increase in price triggers and increase in demand.

Here is a good link: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/VEBLEN/chap04.html

I certainly don't mean to call exotic cable lovers snobs. But, as a cable non-believer, my time at the Cable Asylum sure made me out to be a social misfit amongst the locals. I think that may even be the goal of that forum.

I think there is a perception vs. truth struggle going on. And the people with the perceptions are not embracing the search for the truth.

The cable debate would be a good graduate thesis for an electrial engineer to delve into while the atmoshpere at these forums the formuation of audio beliefs would be a good graduate thesis for a psychology student.

[rb122]

Thanks for the link. I used to read that forum but some of those guys are really out there..

Yes, they're very much into it. I can respect that but, my gosh, I can't believe anyone would argue against cables being the absolute smallest determinant of audio sound and the depths and heights to which these folks converse and audition is both a thing of wonder and... a thing of REAL wonder!

" think there is a perception vs. truth struggle going on."

Yes with the perception side taking the perception AS truth tact. In a way, they're correct. Their perception provides them with a singular truth. Unfortunately, they're truth is someone else's BS. Isn't real truth an absolute?

Thanks for the link. As always, I appreciate the intelligent and civil manner with which you present your premises.