I need help with audio interconnects????

[Darrenmc]

I am at the point with my system where I cannot afford to make the next jump in my equipment without spending alot of $$$, so I'm looking at maximizing system performance. Thus I am looking at getting some decent audio interconnects. I've read several threads on this site and others and alot of articles on the internet on this topic. It seems opinions are widely varied. I'm not a seasoned audiophile like alot of people on these forums so I need some help. I've been to a couple of local dealers and they insist that good audio interconnects do make a difference. One dealer sells Audio Analysis Plus cables but they are very expensive and only come in pre-packaged lengths. The other dealer sells Audioquest and Tara Labs cables. He buys his cable in bulk so he can cut it any length. I was looking at the Audioquest Copperhead cable which sells at $5/foot or the Audioquest Diamondback cable which sells for $8/foot. The connectors are $20 for 2. So I can get 2 - 2 feet cables for $68.40CDN or $82.08CDN incl. taxes. Expensive to me but not crazy expensive. I also have used Ultralink cables which seem ok and are cheaper $45.59CDN incl. taxes for 1M, although I'm not too sure about the quality. The Audioquest cable is within my budget range but if it's not worth it I won't waste my $$$. Can anyone give me an opinion on these Audioquest cables or offer any other suggestions?

[paul_pci]

My local dealer also carries Audioquest and TaraLabs, but he favors TaraLabs, which I eventually went with. I got the RSC Axiom model, which is a bit more expensive than the Diamondbacks, for instance. But see if you can get a pair of Audioquest and Tara from your dealer to audition at home.

Good luck,
Paul.

[okiemax]

I am at the point with my system where I cannot afford to make the next jump in my equipment without spending alot of $$$, so I'm looking at maximizing system performance. Thus I am looking at getting some decent audio interconnects. I've read several threads on this site and others and alot of articles on the internet on this topic. It seems opinions are widely varied. I'm not a seasoned audiophile like alot of people on these forums so I need some help. I've been to a couple of local dealers and they insist that good audio interconnects do make a difference. One dealer sells Audio Analysis Plus cables but they are very expensive and only come in pre-packaged lengths. The other dealer sells Audioquest and Tara Labs cables. He buys his cable in bulk so he can cut it any length. I was looking at the Audioquest Copperhead cable which sells at $5/foot or the Audioquest Diamondback cable which sells for $8/foot. The connectors are $20 for 2. So I can get 2 - 2 feet cables for $68.40CDN or $82.08CDN incl. taxes. Expensive to me but not crazy expensive. I also have used Ultralink cables which seem ok and are cheaper $45.59CDN incl. taxes for 1M, although I'm not too sure about the quality. The Audioquest cable is within my budget range but if it's not worth it I won't waste my $$$. Can anyone give me an opinion on these Audioquest cables or offer any other suggestions?

I have no expeience with the Audioquest Copperhead and Diamonback interconnects, but the prices you were quoted seem reasonable, being comparable to Radio Shack's premium interconnect , the Fusion, which is about $28 US for 3 feet. I would not buy, however, without a money-back guarantee.

[mtrycraft]

I am at the point with my system where I cannot afford to make the next jump in my equipment without spending alot of $$$, so I'm looking at maximizing system performance. Thus I am looking at getting some decent audio interconnects. I've read several threads on this site and others and alot of articles on the internet on this topic. It seems opinions are widely varied. I'm not a seasoned audiophile like alot of people on these forums so I need some help. I've been to a couple of local dealers and they insist that good audio interconnects do make a difference. One dealer sells Audio Analysis Plus cables but they are very expensive and only come in pre-packaged lengths. The other dealer sells Audioquest and Tara Labs cables. He buys his cable in bulk so he can cut it any length. I was looking at the Audioquest Copperhead cable which sells at $5/foot or the Audioquest Diamondback cable which sells for $8/foot. The connectors are $20 for 2. So I can get 2 - 2 feet cables for $68.40CDN or $82.08CDN incl. taxes. Expensive to me but not crazy expensive. I also have used Ultralink cables which seem ok and are cheaper $45.59CDN incl. taxes for 1M, although I'm not too sure about the quality. The Audioquest cable is within my budget range but if it's not worth it I won't waste my $$$. Can anyone give me an opinion on these Audioquest cables or offer any other suggestions?

Of course those dealers insist that you need better cables. How else will they make more money? It is in their best interest to sell. You think if they badmouthed cables they would sell what they carry?

You may want to ask them about real evidence that they make an audible difference. Evidence derived from Double blind listening comparisons. Sighted listening is very biased, hence it has no value in determining such audible differences in cables. No, you will not get one such piece of evidence as it woul not support audible differences. Many have tried for 20+ years, none have succeeded. You will get excuses only.

So, save your money and use what you already have.

[arthur nelson]

Radio Shacks fusion Cables deliver strong power throughout the audible range. No interference no delay . dont be embarassed to try them on your best audio gear.

As for Tara labs- The Tara labs OMNI 3 series of Speaker cables will Throw you into the
Orchestra pit , theyre so responsive- Awaken any system & fairly priced. if you cant find a Dealer call direct to their Medford oregon Factory( website also) They will customize
your cables with gold pins & Bananas & ship Overnight -Very Top Notch Company.
Cleaner sound than Audioquest or Kimber.

[E-Stat]

I am at the point with my system where I cannot afford to make the next jump in my equipment without spending alot of $$$, so I'm looking at maximizing system performance.

Better cables are all about system matching and understanding that there are only incremental improvements to be found. Some of the potential benefits depend upon your equipment (not necessarily assessments of "good" or "bad", but parameters) and the kind of music you favor. For example, since I use passive attenuators with my CDP (significantly more open than my preamp), cable capacitance is far more important. If you need very long runs of cable, that can be a mitigating factor.

Some folks don't hear differences because they don't know what to listen for. In home trials will cost you nothing but your time. You may find benefit and you may not. Many of us enjoy the hunt. Good luck !

rw

[skeptic]

Not only isn't there event the slightest shred of evidence anywhere to suggest that one interconnect cable is any different than another, it makes no sense at all. The least expensive audio cable interconnect can carry a video signal cable perfectly and that signal has over 300 times the bandwidth of an audio signal. The greatest measured difference by a proponent of these cables could find no measureable differences to suggest that they could possibly be audible. Don't waste your money. Put it to work doing something useful and usable.

[woodman]

I concur 110% with everything that "skeptic" said in his post here. The worlds of audio and video are overrun with charlatans out to relieve you of some of your hard-earned ... and under very false pretenses.

I would add to the discussion the following:

Although it sounds quite reasonable on the face of it - the advice given by many well-intentioned individuals to try the product yourself and "let your ears decide" is in actuality really terrible advice! For our ears are anything but harbingers of ultimate truth, as much as some would like to think they are. In truth, they are but a small part of the mechanism(s) that ultimately determine what we hear. This is true of all 5 of our senses. They all operate under the direct control and influence of our ABEs (our Attitudes, Beliefs, and Expectations) - very often at a subconscious level, but the control and influence are there nonetheless.

[ROJ]

I recently researched audio interconnects to see if I should upgrade my cables. As you probably read in your research, this is a contentious topic without any scientifically rigorous proof one way or another, althought inclusion of DBT is an important first step and may indicate that ultimately no differences will be found if the research progresses. I actually don't know what I think about cables differences since no scientifically rigorous research exists (the current studies seem to have poor internal or external validity). Given that definitive proof does not exist and may not be produced for some time, I decided to try a few cheap cables and see if I noticed a difference. I wanted to try cheap cables that had money back guarantees. I bought cables from Blue Jean Cables (bluejeanscable.com) and Heartland Cables (heartlandcables.com). Both of these companies offer cheaper cables than the mainstream cable companies and offer 30 day money back guarantees. In my system and in my admittedly biased testing, the cables seemed to have made a difference. As I said before, I don't know if cables actually do make a differences. The difference I perceived may have been due to bias. At the same time, there actually may be differences in cables since studies that have used DBT have not addressed external validity issues (e.g., did not control for potential confounding variables such as differences between systems and listerners). So as this debate continues seemingly in perpetuity, one option to consider is to try some cheap cables that have money back guarantees (such as Blue Jeans cable or Heartland cables) and see if you feel the cables improve your system.

-ROJ

[skeptic]

"In my system and in my admittedly biased testing, the cables seemed to have made a difference. As I said before, I don't know if cables actually do make a differences. The difference I perceived may have been due to bias."

Then your advice makes no sense at all. How can your reach any conclusion when there is admitted bias. Furthermore, if you use the rationale that cheap cables might provide some improvement, how can you preclude the possibility that more expensive cables wouldn't provide even greater improvement.

If you take the arguement that only "high resolution" sound systems provide the possibility that an audible improvement would result from improved cables, how do you define high resolution. One audiophiles dream component or dream system is another audiophile's "mid fi." And even among the "select" components chosen by rags like Stereophile Magazine, the number of permutations is virtually limitless.

[ROJ]

"In my system and in my admittedly biased testing, the cables seemed to have made a difference. As I said before, I don't know if cables actually do make a differences. The difference I perceived may have been due to bias."

Then your advice makes no sense at all. How can your reach any conclusion when there is admitted bias. Furthermore, if you use the rationale that cheap cables might provide some improvement, how can you preclude the possibility that more expensive cables wouldn't provide even greater improvement.

If you take the arguement that only "high resolution" sound systems provide the possibility that an audible improvement would result from improved cables, how do you define high resolution. One audiophiles dream component or dream system is another audiophile's "mid fi." And even among the "select" components chosen by rags like Stereophile Magazine, the number of permutations is virtually limitless.

Hi Skeptic,

I am sorry that my advice does not make sense to you. My main point is that both sides of the argument are biased and are not basing recommendations on science. I believe that I am even more of a “skeptic” than you. I feel that the recommendations for or against cables are based on flawed studies. I am skeptical of both sides. I am even skeptical of my own observations, which is why I said that my results may have been biased. I still have not seen any well conducted, peer reviewed research that have addressed the issue. It intrigues me that you included the argument about “high resolution” systems being required to hear differences in your response to my post as I have never claimed that “high resolution” systems are needed to hear differences. Some may argue that this indicates your bias in that I was somehow clumped with the pro cable group, even though I am trying to belong to the “we don’t really know” group.

Regarding the current research, including DBT is a step in the right direction, but the there are other important issues to consider. Some of my main reasons for my skepticism are that the quality of the systems, the room acoustics, and the variability in perceptual abilities among people have not been scientifically examined. Thus, we can not say if these variables affect the ability to perceive cable differences. So, a “high resolution” system may be needed for cable differences, or it may not. I don’t know and no one can scientifically claim that it does or does not. We can make claims, but we should acknowledge that they are not scientifically rigorous and may be biased, again another reason that I admitted my results may have been biased. I am still perplexed why recommendations are made so strongly on both my sides with incomplete research.

Do you believe that the issues about cable differences is resolved? If so, why? I am still skeptical that the issue has been resolved, but would strongly enjoy hearing arguments or research that have addressed the debate.

For those that believe in cable differences, the cables that I recommend are often highly rated and are advertised to be comparable to more expensive cables. Again, there is no current research to verify or refute the claim. Since we are not basing recommendation on research, I recommended that the person try these cheap and supposedly high quality cables. If the person does not like the cables, they get their money back. The person does not have anything to lose. Again, this recommendation does not indicate that I am in the pro cable group. I am still in the "we don't really know" group. Given that I am in this group (if it even exists), I don't think it would hurt to try cables, especially if they are relatively inexpensive and you can get your money back.

-ROJ

[pctower]

"In my system and in my admittedly biased testing, the cables seemed to have made a difference. As I said before, I don't know if cables actually do make a differences. The difference I perceived may have been due to bias."

Then your advice makes no sense at all. How can your reach any conclusion when there is admitted bias. Furthermore, if you use the rationale that cheap cables might provide some improvement, how can you preclude the possibility that more expensive cables wouldn't provide even greater improvement.

If you take the arguement that only "high resolution" sound systems provide the possibility that an audible improvement would result from improved cables, how do you define high resolution. One audiophiles dream component or dream system is another audiophile's "mid fi." And even among the "select" components chosen by rags like Stereophile Magazine, the number of permutations is virtually limitless.

"Then your advice makes no sense at all. How can your reach any conclusion when there is admitted bias."

It's not clear to me what "advice" he gave. Perhaps you mean he is suggesting it's ok to "try" a few cables. As you point out below, that can't be done at home under proper blind conditions.

However, it seems to me that you and many others miss a critical point. You say he can't reach any "conclusion when there is admitted bias." You apparently mean a "conclusion" that has academic, scientific validity, and in that context I would agree with you.

However, for most audiophiles, the only "conclusion" that matters is the impact a new component or cable has on their own personal experience and enjoyment of their system. You and others seem hell-bent to discourage people from trying these things for themselves even though the results for them might be quite positive simply because there is no "proof" that such enjoyment is the product of anything other than bias.

You seem to me to place scientific rigidity above personal enjoyment. Most audiophiles approach the hobby differently.

You and others love to talk about the 20-plus years of lack of "proof" from the cable companies. However, you fail to mention the 20-plus years of countless audiophiles who have bought and used cables with a high level of satisfaction. One almost never hears any complaint from these consumers, nor do we ever hear of dissatisfaction rising to the level of complaints filed with governmental agencies. I dare say there are not too many product areas about which the same could be said.

It would be interesting, for example, to know how many, if any, complaints have ever been filed with any Better Business Bureau office concerning dissatisfaction with an audio cable purchase. I'm willing to bet there are very, very few.

This of course proves nothing from a scientific standpoint. However, it does prove in my opinion that from a pure human enjoyment standpoint, money spent on cables may be some of the best money spent. The people who spent the money on the whole seem very satisfied with their purchases. They often are prepared to "upgrade" because their prior "upgrades" were so satifying to them.

Rather than complaining about their purchases, they are enjoying them. And people like you would love nothing better than to possess the power of depriving generations of satisfied customers from having had those enjoyable experiences.

[okiemax]

I recently researched audio interconnects to see if I should upgrade my cables. As you probably read in your research, this is a contentious topic without any scientifically rigorous proof one way or another, althought inclusion of DBT is an important first step and may indicate that ultimately no differences will be found if the research progresses. I actually don't know what I think about cables differences since no scientifically rigorous research exists (the current studies seem to have poor internal or external validity). Given that definitive proof does not exist and may not be produced for some time, I decided to try a few cheap cables and see if I noticed a difference. I wanted to try cheap cables that had money back guarantees. I bought cables from Blue Jean Cables (bluejeanscable.com) and Heartland Cables (heartlandcables.com). Both of these companies offer cheaper cables than the mainstream cable companies and offer 30 day money back guarantees. In my system and in my admittedly biased testing, the cables seemed to have made a difference. As I said before, I don't know if cables actually do make a differences. The difference I perceived may have been due to bias. At the same time, there actually may be differences in cables since studies that have used DBT have not addressed external validity issues (e.g., did not control for potential confounding variables such as differences between systems and listerners). So as this debate continues seemingly in perpetuity, one option to consider is to try some cheap cables that have money back guarantees (such as Blue Jeans cable or Heartland cables) and see if you feel the cables improve your system.

-ROJ

Good for you, ROJ! You decided to make your own cable purchasing decision rather than letting someone else do it for you. While you don't dismiss the possibility your hearing may be biased, you also don't seem to dismiss the possibility naysayers may be wrong. Your message to Darrenmc, who asked for advice, was not to do what you did, but just that he might consider it as an option. You can think for yourself, and apparently you believe others can too.

[mtrycraft]

I recently researched audio interconnects to see if I should upgrade my cables. As you probably read in your research, this is a contentious topic without any scientifically rigorous proof one way or another, althought inclusion of DBT is an important first step and may indicate that ultimately no differences will be found if the research progresses. I actually don't know what I think about cables differences since no scientifically rigorous research exists (the current studies seem to have poor internal or external validity). Given that definitive proof does not exist and may not be produced for some time, I decided to try a few cheap cables and see if I noticed a difference. I wanted to try cheap cables that had money back guarantees. I bought cables from Blue Jean Cables (bluejeanscable.com) and Heartland Cables (heartlandcables.com). Both of these companies offer cheaper cables than the mainstream cable companies and offer 30 day money back guarantees. In my system and in my admittedly biased testing, the cables seemed to have made a difference. As I said before, I don't know if cables actually do make a differences. The difference I perceived may have been due to bias. At the same time, there actually may be differences in cables since studies that have used DBT have not addressed external validity issues (e.g., did not control for potential confounding variables such as differences between systems and listerners). So as this debate continues seemingly in perpetuity, one option to consider is to try some cheap cables that have money back guarantees (such as Blue Jeans cable or Heartland cables) and see if you feel the cables improve your system.

-ROJ

You may want to read this testing on cables, even though it was not peer jopurnal, the author is not a fly by nighter:

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...istortion.html

And this didn't even do a DBT listening test.

Oh, as to proof, hard to prove a negative, don't you think? The question should be: is there proof for audible differences? If not, Why not???

[E-Stat]

You may want to read this testing on cables, even though it was not peer jopurnal, the author is not a fly by nighter:

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...istortion.html

Right on, Mtry. Let's all read the summation together:

"It shows that people who claim that cables do not make a difference are plainly deluding themselves."

rw

[bturk667]

How much money are you looking to spend?

[skeptic]

Of all the different types of audio cables there are, interconnects are the one type which YOU can easily test at home and you can even perform a double blind test within the limits of your knowledge of how to perform it and the help you will get from other people in fairly administering it. I have suggested this test many times before and every time, some cable advocate chimes in about why this test is unfair. In their view, there are no fair tests. But the diatribes of nonsense they will post notwithstanding, here it is again for the umpteenth time for those who don't know it.

Connect the cables you want to test as jumpers between the tape output and the tape monitor input of your preamplifier or the preamplifier stage of your integrated amplifier or receiver. That's the setup. Now when you switch between source and monitor, you will be switching between the cable under test and a short length (a few inches) of wire in your preamplifier. If you hear NO DIFFERENCE, the cable is doing its job perfectly. Any difference whatsoever means that the cable is not perfectly transmitting what is being fed into it. The degree of difference and the nature of the difference is the error the cable is introducing. It dosn't matter whether you like the sound through the cable any better or worse. Different is wrong.

If there is a difference in sound level, the cable will always be the softer signal because it is a passive device and it can ONLY introduce losses. If this is the case, reject it immediately out of hand. It was designed to be an audio filter to deliberately alter the sound. If you have a cd player with what some manufacturers call A-B repeat and others call 4 way repeat, you can play the same arbitrary musical passage over and over again endlessly to help you decide.

I have tried this experiment on countless occasions and have never heard any difference for any properly functioning non audiophile cable. That will satisfy ANY person who is rational that the cable is performing its function perfectly. Anybody ever get any different result? I've never heard of one. No wonder the cable proponents hate this test. It blows their entire arguement out of the water.

BTW, if you are handy with tools, you can easily build inexpensive devices to test speaker wires and power cords in exactly the same way. This is not an "AB" test. It's a test of "A" against nothing.

I will add one note. The fairness of this test depends on there not being any additional buffer amplifier stages on the tape output circuit of your preamplifier. In my experience, most don't have any. To test for this if you are not sure, try the following. Turn off your receiver. Remove the input signal of your source from one channel only. Connect one of the test cables between the left and right tape output jacks. Now turn it back on and place the monitor switch in the source mode. If there are no buffer amplifiers, the sound will be heard through both channels when the mode switch is turned to Stereo. If you hear output through only one channel in this test there IS a tape output buffer amplifier and it can theoreticaly introduce a change in the test signal going through the test cable that would invalidate the test. Of course you can still try the test and if you still get no difference, the cable proves its merit anyway. It is likely that the buffer amplifier if there is one does not degrade the signal either.

[masstar]

I like your idea to test the cable between the tape monitors...i agree the best cables in this test will be the ones which have the least amount of change to the sound. I think the poor cables will be the ones where you "loose" the most...ill try it out.

PS, i edited my above post to say a little more about scientific tests where individuals try to hear the difference between different wires. (rather than one vs. none).

[masstar]

I tried your test on my new wires, and my old ones...I couldn't tell the difference. Not on any of them. Wire in / wire out...immediately with the push of a button - no difference. You got me. HA! Now i feel stupid, but its important to say im wrong.

Im satisfied with my ultimte decision to go the economic route and build my own cables...in the end they probably cost me about $20 for each pair. And i still reccomend them...but im a lot less ecstatic about my new found "sound". I guess it could be that re-wiring things fixed an old bad connection...but more likely your right and I just imagined things. After reading some of my previous posts I think Ill go crawl under a rock for a while.

After i put a few disclaimers on my other posts

[DMK]

I tried your test on my new wires, and my old ones...I couldn't tell the difference. Not on any of them. Wire in / wire out...immediately with the push of a button - no difference. You got me. HA! Now i feel stupid, but its important to say im wrong.

Im satisfied with my ultimte decision to go the economic route and build my own cables...in the end they probably cost me about $20 for each pair. And i still reccomend them...but im a lot less ecstatic about my new found "sound". I guess it could be that re-wiring things fixed an old bad connection...but more likely your right and I just imagined things. After reading some of my previous posts I think Ill go crawl under a rock for a while.

After i put a few disclaimers on my other posts

You aren't the first to be duped by the claims of cable manufacturers and other audiophiles and you won't be the last. I felt pretty stupid when I did my blind tests years ago. But better to feel foolish and wise up than to be foolish forever. The imagination is a powerful thing, no? Just be aware that not everything the scientific community says doesn't make a difference truly doesn't. Cables don't - unless you imagine them to.

[masstar]

Aha! I found it...im not quite so stupid after all! (well, maybe a little bit)

I decided to test ALL the previous wires I was using...cause I had a few pairs of monster 300. The first monster I tested was fine...but the other connection to the CD was obviously bad because I did hear the difference with that one. The wire is gettting old I guess and looks pretty corroded inside the end link...it might even be just one channel i cant really tell...but theres my culprit.

Thanks for helping me figure this out...what a ride!

[masstar]

This post entered out of order so i moved it...

[masstar]

ya i was so suprised that wire had any difference...i never thought it would. it wasnt really all that bad but I should have realized it was more than just wire for the differences I was hearing. Im glad i did your test because I was on the track to being a real believer! whew.