I found a very interesting article on expensive cables....

[Mr Peabody]

Were the Tara Labs speaker connects? What gear were they connected to?

[O'Shag]

I have two Mercs - they both have problems with sticking in low gear - sometimes this happens out of the blue. I have to shift into neutral to get the gears operational again - have you had this problem?

[O'Shag]

Whoops did I say Mercs? - I meant to say AMC Gremlins.

[IBSTORMIN]

OK, it feels good to be back : )

First of all, I haven't read all of your replies, but the comparison between cables and fuel just caught my eyes. I drive a Mercedes S55 and the manual specifically says that I need gas with a minimum 91 Octane rating. I talked to my mechanic about the science behind this and he replied that dedicated engines are build with little room for dust and impurities. These impurities build up in the engine and eventually ruins it.

I don't agree with the previous anology of wires to gasoline, but having been a technician I offer a definition of Octane from Wikipedia:
The octane rating is a measure of the resistance of gasoline and other fuels to detonation (engine knocking) in spark-ignition internal combustion engines. High-performance engines typically have higher compression ratios and are therefore more prone to detonation, so they require higher octane fuel. A lower-performance engine will not generally perform better with high-octane fuel, since the compression ratio is fixed by the engine design.

It has nothing to do with dust and impurities like your technician said but with compression ratios and spark knock. Your Benz has higher than normal compression and therefore requires a higher octane gas. In the days of computer controls the worry is no longer that spark knock from lower octane will damage an engine. The computer will back off the timing to prevent spark knock damage but performance will suffer with the change in timing, My '83 Monte Carlo SS knocks with 92 octane, worse with 91 Octane, because the computer is not as sophisticated as today's computers.

I really don't know what this has to do with speaker wires. Maybe "high performance amps and speakers require high performance wires"?

[Hyfi]

I really don't know what this has to do with speaker wires. Maybe "high performance amps and speakers require high performance wires"?

It means that there is something wrong if you own an expensive car that requires a more expensive gas than other cars, and you just bought Home Depot cables for you $5k audio system.

[E-Stat]

I need gas with a minimum 91 Octane rating. I talked to my mechanic about the science behind this and he replied that dedicated engines are build with little room for dust and impurities. These impurities build up in the engine and eventually ruins it.

Octane ratings have nothing to do with dust and impurities. He was either pulling your leg or is really doesn't understand engine design. It is a matter of matching higher compression ratio or forced induction engines with higher octane fuels to suppress knocking. All three of my Honda products (two and four wheel alike) also require premium because of their high compression, high output per liter motors. So does a 1960 Plymouth Valiant (leaded fuel back then had higher octane).

As long as the cables deliver deliver the same AWG, I don't think it makes a difference at all.

Capacitance and inductance do matter with some speaker/amplifier combinations.

rw

[Kevio]

As long as the cables deliver deliver the same AWG, I don't think it makes a difference at all. Given that, I still bought some Tara Labs cable and it made no difference at all compared to my regular 12AWG cable bought from Home Depot.

I also took the opportunity to talk to a professional musician about cables. He told me that the only time a cable makes a NOTICEABLE difference is if it goes over 50 feet. To be safe, he says that I should use a relatively higher grade interconnects if the preamp is more than 25 feet away from the amp. Also, a XLR cable is superior than a RCA cable when it comes to distant wiring.

A couple other points here:
1/ Just because you or I can't hear a difference doesn't mean others can't. Whether the difference is worth any extra money, we'll only ever know if these customers or companies learn to stop worrying and love double-blind testing.
2/ In my experience, musicians are probably not usually the most critical listeners. Classical and jazz musicians and the like tend to hear through deficiencies in the recording or the reproduction system and listen the the performance. Rock musicians tend to have hearing damage.
3/ The 50 ft and XLR vs. RCA comments are generally well-accepted. Maybe this is a musician with a technical background.

[Mr Peabody]

2/ In my experience, musicians are probably not usually the most critical listeners. Classical and jazz musicians and the like tend to hear through deficiencies in the recording or the reproduction system and listen the the performance. Rock musicians tend to have hearing damage.

* That has been my observation as well and was going to bring it up in my prior post but thought better of it at the time. I know there must be exceptions but it always struck me odd how musicians I've met are not much into home audio. I was at a music store one time for a album signing thing, when I met the guy who signed my CD insert I asked him what type of system he had and he really didn't have an answer. I was thinking "big time musician, I bet he has a killer system".

[IBSTORMIN]

It means that there is something wrong if you own an expensive car that requires a more expensive gas than other cars, and you just bought Home Depot cables for you $5k audio system.

LIKE HE SAID ! ! ! ! ! !

Unless you can't hear a difference, but then you probably shouldn't have spent $5K on an audio system.

[Feanor]

http://www.audioholics.com/education...able-resonance

I am still a skeptical to spend $400 on cables. I got some good advice from people here but I have to say this article above makes a lot of sense too.

Thanks guys. I'll keep my eyes out.

Audioholics has just gone up a bit in my esteem. I have read the odd link to their site on quite a few occassions but somehow missed the orientation to "objectivist" audio. Readers of Angelgz link should also read this one ...
http://www.audioholics.com/education...-you-snake-oil

I don' consider myself an "objectivist" if only because I buy what sounds best to me without reference to, e.g., specifications. However when it comes to cables I have listened an found no significant differences among well-made lower-middle price interconnects, such as Blue Jeans, ($30), and upper-upper middle price counterparts, such as Monster, Kimber, or QED, (up to $200). This doesn't dispose me to want to try $500+ interconnects. The same is pretty much true for speaker cables.

A few years ago when I was getting back a bit more into the hobby, I felt I was hearing some differences amoung cables & interconnects. Today I believe I was probably kidding myself. I no longer hear difference among the sorts of lower- to higher-mid priced cables I mentioned. If you have and entry to mid-level system, I strongly advise you to spend your extra money on other components than cables; just invest in the likes of Blues Jeans and you'll be fine indefinitely.

Why is it so difficult for some people to admit that they might be kidding themselves about cable differences. Yes, yes, they are "hearing" differences. But they are forgetting that somewhere between our ear receptors and our conscious perception we all have an imagination signal processor.

[audio amateur]

My best buddy has a 1.4L hatchback Rover and fills it with 100 octane Shell V-Power
His dad has some diplomatic status and is detaxed on Shell petrol. Makes me laugh...

[Auricauricle]

I like that term, Fean: "Imagination Signal Processor". I'll call it the ISP, if you don't mind....

[Mr Peabody]

Feanor if your imagination is so active how can you be sure of anything? I'm not about to admit anything that isn't true. i've heard enough cables to know there is a difference to be heard. Some larger than others depending on what the cable was. If I was biased I would have never admit that BJC was as good as I found them to be, and according to you and others I wouldn't have found them to be because my imagination wouldn't have allowed me to recognize their value. I don't know if I have exceptional hearing, have developed a knack over years of experience listening or just some knack of being in tune with my equipment, but I have no problem evaluating cables. The fact that some one can't hear this difference leads me to wonder how they can be trusted to evaluate any equipment at all. I certainly wouldn't trust that person's judgment on sound of anything.

I don't know what caused the ax you all feel you have to grind with cables but if it wasn't so pathetic and ridiculous it would be funny. A cable is a component to be evaluated as every other piece of the audio system chain. So if our imagination was so out of control and we were so influenced by everything we hear or see, we wouldn't know what the hell we were listening to or how any of it sounds. We could just light magical incense and make our system sound like all reference gear. Why spend big bucks at all just get a pretty boombox and just pretend it's a million dollar system. I mean imagination is imagination. I just can't believe the nonsense that gets posted here sometimes. You and your imagination to the butt wipe who claims we can't taste the flavor of a damn Lifesaver unless we see it.

[Feanor]

Feanor if your imagination is so active how can you be sure of anything? I'm not about to admit anything that isn't true. i've heard enough cables to know there is a difference to be heard.
...

In the first place my comments weren't aimed a you in particular. Secondly I have never gone so far as to say there positively are not differences between cables. You might very well have such superb hearing that you can hear such differences as there actually are. For my part I have not hear significant difference among mid-priced cables; (I have no real experience with $500+/meter cables nor am I likely to ).

Please take my point, and I have always qualified my advice carefully. People with entry or middle level systems, (and I suspect that excludes you), are better to spend their money elsewhere than on expensive cables.

OK, done: there are differences among cables and you hear differences them. Now, do you deny that biases and presupostions play a big role in the (sighted) evaluation of components (by some people some of time)? The concurrent thread about DBT of speakers demonstrates (or, RGA's quibbling aside, prove), the even experienced listeners (like you and, maybe, me), come to different conclusions when their suppositions are not in play. We wouln't even touch on the realm of 'Brilliant Pebbles', jade elephants, or the like.

[markw]

Well, since it was me that made that statement, why not simply man up and refer to me by name? After all, you're the only one you might be fooling.

Or, do Feanor's simple truths have you so on the defensive with no facts to support you that you must resort to childish name-calling (indirectly, of course) in order to TRY to prove the validity of your beliefs. Does it really make you that angry? Are you really a grown man?

As for the "nonsense posted here", you're responsible for a goodly portion yourself. You're so susceptible to what you read and WANT to believe that your BS detector is permanently disabled, by your choice. From some of our mutual encounters in the past here, you don't know enough to be able to tell BS you read on the Internet from what's real. Shall I go back and post some links?

tis a shame. Every time I think I'm gaining some little respect for you, you somehow manage to destroy that. Face it P. You're so full of yourself that one good enema would wipe you off the face of the earth.

[Feanor]

Well, since it was me that made that statement, why not simply man up and refer to me by name? After all, you're the only one you might be fooling.

Or, do Feanor's simple truths have you so on the defensive with no facts to support you that you must resort to childish name-calling (indirectly, of course) in order to TRY to prove the validity of your beliefs. Does it really make you that angry? Are you really a grown man?

....

Or perhaps it is you who is on the defensive? Mr Peabody thought I was referring to him; you think I'm referring to you. I was speaking about the frailties of people generally: if you see these faults in yourself, I don't need to apologize.

The only thing I really believe in is skepticism and some self-doubt is a healthy part of that. My ears have lied to me betimes: once in a while your ears have lied to you. Confess this to yourself.

[markw]

Or perhaps it is you who is on the defensive? Mr Peabody thought I was referring to him; you think I'm referring to you. I was speaking about the frailties of people generally: if you see these faults in yourself, I don't need to apologize.

The only thing I really believe in is skepticism and some self-doubt is a healthy part of that. My ears have lied to me betimes: once in a while your ears have lied to you. Confess this to yourself.

Mr P doesn't respond when confronted and has no logical defense; he lashes out.

As far as I know, I'm the only one here that ever made reference to that lifesaver trick, in post 41 of this thread : Newbie asking a not-so-smart question about cables..... As such, who else would he be referring to?

I just can't believe the nonsense that gets posted here sometimes. You and your imagination to the butt wipe who claims we can't taste the flavor of a damn Lifesaver unless we see it.

Now, if he had just left off that last sentence, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we? It certainly didn't add anything to the points he tried to make, did it? Heck, it's not even a valid senence!?!

And, for the record, nowhere did I ever think you, Feanor, were referring to me.

So, as for Mr P, he can make like a shepard and go flock himself.

[E-Stat]

My best buddy has a 1.4L hatchback Rover and fills it with 100 octane Shell V-Power

It is not only silly to use higher octane than required, it is counterproductive to performance and may cause carbon buildup in the cylinders. Higher octane resists combustion which if overdone can cause incomplete combustion. Not sure of his model, but it would seem quite normal to use 91 octane (which is what we consider "premium" in the States) if it has a 10.5:1 compression ratio as I've found Googling specs on Rover engines.

rw

[Feanor]

Mr P doesn't respond when confronted and has no logical defense; he lashes out.

As far as I know, I'm the only one here that ever made reference to that lifesaver trick, in post 41 of this thread : Newbie asking a not-so-smart question about cables..... As such, who else would he be referring to?

Now, if he had just left off that last sentence, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we? It certainly didn't add anything to the points he tried to make, did it? Heck, it's not even a valid senence!?!

And, for the record, nowhere did I ever think you, Feanor, were referring to me.

So, as for Mr P, he can make like a shepard and go flock himself.

I did misconstrue your remarks. Now that I have read them properly I see that my position is closer to yours than Mr P's (for example).

[audio amateur]

It is not only silly to use higher octane than required, it is counterproductive to performance and may cause carbon buildup in the cylinders. Higher octane resists combustion which if overdone can cause incomplete combustion. Not sure of his model, but it would seem quite normal to use 91 octane (which is what we consider "premium" in the States) if it has a 10.5:1 compression ratio as I've found Googling specs on Rover engines.

rw

Thanks E. To be honest we've talked about it and he's thinking he should go lower. He says he notices better power across a certain rev range (he drives a mountain path of about 7 miles to get to College which is worthy of a rally stage in Corsica). I think it'd be wiser to go lower though, and he'll probably agree. The fuel ratings in France (like most other countries I've been to aside USA) are 95, 98 & sometimes 100. I'm not quite sure why this is higher than in the US. Me thinks the octane in US & French petrol is no different, and I am mostly right, as I've just done a wiki search. US 91 is equivalent to Euro 95.
He owns a Rover 25 which according to him uses a 1.4L engine built by Rover but a copy of the 1.4L Honda VTEC. I love the VTEC sound

[Smokey]

Please take my point, and I have always qualified my advice carefully. People with entry or middle level systems, (and I suspect that excludes you), are better to spend their money elsewhere than on expensive cables.

Given that cables should be chosen independent of system’s cost, I don’t see any reason why that statement wouldn’t apply to people with high level systems also.

[angelgz]

LIKE HE SAID ! ! ! ! ! !

Unless you can't hear a difference, but then you probably shouldn't have spent $5K on an audio system.

I disagree. I've sent more than $10k on my speakers, amps and processors, but not wires and power cords. If you open up one of your amps or processors, you'll see the cables (internal wiring) are not silver or anything close to that. They are are just reasonably good cables you can get anywhere. Trying also opening up your Dynaduio Contour speaks, you'll see the same internal wiring. I think the very famous Evidence Master doesn't use silver cables either. With that said, I don't think I need to get a cable any better than the cables inside these systems, especially not those with a battery in it (pure scam). Though I am against buying expensive cables, but home depot cables are just too ugly to use so I got Tara Labs Prism (bi-wire) which was $2 a foot -- the guy gave me a good deal. I am very content with these cables since they look expensive haha .

However, my $$ DID go to a few very expensive power conditioners. I can see the logic for people to spend $$ on power conditioners because some old houses (like mine) have low voltage issues. The "normal" current coming out from the wall, I tested, is 114 volts and sometimes drop below 100 volts when the central air conditioner kicks in during the summer. This has been a problem for many rooms in my house and there's just no way to re-do all the wrings unless i tear apart the house. The difference was noticeable after installing these power conditioners. Meanwhile they protect my systems very well in the event of a power surge.

The "cable" money I saved could probably buy me another amp which will make a REAL DIFFERENCE. I tested a Onkyo TX-875 Receiver vs a Parasound Halo A53 Amp with + the C2 Controller. The difference is literally night and day. Using my frequency generating software, I found that the Onkyo produces tremendous amount of distortion in the higher octaves. After reaching 16,000hz, there was nothing but AUDIBLE distortion.

[Mr Peabody]

I wonder if you didn't hear a difference in cables or did it just not show up on your screen. Same with the amp, did the Parasound sound better or just look better on your screen?

And, you are wrong, Dynaudio certainly does not use ordinary wire on there Evidence series and I doubt on any.

dynaudio evidence

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloud...62/index1.html

[Feanor]

Given that cables should be chosen independent of system’s cost, I don’t see any reason why that statement wouldn’t apply to people with high level systems also.

I don't know that I agree with the premise. If we suspend disbelief for a moment and allow that "expensive" equates to higher quality, better resolving, whatever, then such subtle difference as there might be favoring more expensive cables, should be more apparent in the higher-cost system.

Then again there is the relative arguments that (1) more expensive cables are no more than proportionals to cost of the system as a whole, and (2) that the richer people who can afford the expensive system can also afford the expensive cables.

[E-Stat]

I love the VTEC sound

Honda's clever idea has been copied by virtually every other major car manufacturer. The concept is actually pretty simple. Provide two cam profiles: a mild one for low engine speed and a wild one with big time overlap for high engine speeds. The S2000's transition occurs at just over 6000 RPM - at which time the engine's character goes from Jekyll to Hyde and races to redline!

rw