Great Article on Cables

[jneutron]

While that's true, if I understand Bruce's ridiculous speculations correctly, he is referring to fire resistance. In fact, Teflon is specifically designed for electrical cables where fire safety is of high concern.

Teflon fire resistance

rw

I would be hesitant to call his speculations as ridiculous...let's examine:

1) Violating the National Electric Code(and maybe several state and local ones) for using a wire with insufficient insulation characteristics.

I would categorize "insulation characteristics" as encompassing the following..

A. The material's ability to remain unchanged in the temperature range of interest...flammability, chemical makeup, electrical isolation ability at all temps, it's ability to retain form..all of which can impact the insulation's ability to perform it's function.

B. The ability of the insulation to withstand the application's physical rigors, as in abrasion resistance, ability to survive bending stresses, it's resistance to creep.

C. If ignited, the ability to resist giving off extremely toxic byproducts, as well as self extinguishing characteristics.

It is possible to violate the NEC through the use of an insulation material which is superior with respect to fire resistance. This is because fire resistance is only one of many parameters which the code encompasses.

So, even though some materials may indeed be better in some aspect, use of them can be a violation of NEC, with these ramifications:

2) Likely not to be covered by their homeowners insurance in the event of a fire.
3) Putting their safety and the safety of their family at risk for the previously mentioned reasons.

Just my take on what Bruce stated..

Cheers, John

[E-Stat]

I would be hesitant to call his speculations as ridiculous...let's examine:
I would categorize "insulation characteristics" as encompassing the following..

Do you have any specific information as to Teflon's unsuitability for use as wire insulation (especially since it is widely used)?

The Belden website doesn't like direct links, but go to www.belden.com and search for 83803 for various certifcations.

rw

[jneutron]

Do you have any specific information as to Teflon's unsuitability for use as wire insulation (especially since it is widely used)?

Here is but one example of Teflon insulated power cord:

Belden 82803

rw

No, I have nothing that would consider teflon as unsuitable in normal applications..I cannot use the stuff, but that is a radiation induced oxygen outgassing thing in liquid helium, and as far as I know, not too many audio applications have to worry about that..but I could be wrong..

I am aware of this:
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarch...s~20040520.php

They are now recommending removal of all teflon wires that are not used, rather than leaving in place..

In reviewing bruce's post,

You're friends who are using cable designed for limited power applications as power cords as you mentioned

I do believe what he was referring to was the use of too small a guage conductor, or too thin an insulation (low voltage), both of which mean the insulation isn't necessarily up to the task required of a power cord, and as such, would violate NEC.

But, perhaps he can elaborate more..

It would be pleasant, however, to see a reasonably nice discussion here on the topic..a change I would welcome....

Cheers, John

[E-Stat]

No, I have nothing that would consider teflon as unsuitable in normal applications.

Fine. Then we can dispense with all the theoretical speculations that do not apply.

They are now recommending removal of all teflon wires that are not used, rather than leaving in place..

All cabling will eventually burn. The key is removing all unused cable. FEP, however, is more fire resistant than either PE or PVC.

It would be pleasant, however, to see a reasonably nice discussion here on the topic..a change I would welcome....

Indeed. I think it would be far more productive to discuss real products and issues rather than wild assed guesses about imaginary ones. All power cables I use are UL approved.

Leaving the imaginary and returning to the real world, do you believe using a 9 gauge power cord one meter in length that is UL/CL3 listed for use with an amplifier rated at 10 amps will pose a fire hazard? The cable above it is 16 gauge by comparison.



rw

[jneutron]

Fine. Then we can dispense with all the theoretical speculations that do not apply.

Please explain why the statement"You're friends who are using cable designed for limited power applications as power cords" is theoretical.. Some of the power cord product I've seen on the forums certainly does not meet reasonable safety standards..I believe this is what bruce was referring to..

Indeed. I think it would be far more productive to discuss real products and issues rather than wild assed guesses about imaginary ones. All power cables I use are UL approved.rw

Hmmm..I have reviewed all my posts, and have not identified what I would consider a "wild ass guess"..please elaborate.

Leaving the imaginary and returning to the real world, do you believe using a 9 gauge power cord one meter in length that is UL/CL3 listed for use with an amplifier rated at 10 amps will pose a fire hazard? The cable above it is 16 gauge by comparison.
rw

I believe the term "your friends" means, umm, your friends...I did not notice an accusation that you personally are using cords above their rating..As far as I can recall, I do not believe I have made accusational statements of the type that would warrant the somewhat "strong" response you just provided..I am somewhat at a loss to understand your demeanor...

As to your power cord...ul approved, very cool indeed..ducks all in a row...nice..

Your segue from bruce's "power limited" to a 9AWG was interesting, although it was a diversion from the actual statement..

I can design a #12 awg power cord which will outperform your 9 guage beast, in your system...in fact, in all systems. However, the solution has not been tested to UL standards. I had gone so far as to inquire on NRE and production costing for the wire, as well as initial queries into the costing of said UL approval...

Needless to say, I am not inclined to stick my legal neck out for a line cord solution that others could mess up and hurt themselves with.

Please re-visit all my previous posts, so that you may realize that I have not attacked you..

Cheers, John

PS...I woulda gone with a different color...purple over a green rug???geeeeeze...

[E-Stat]

Please explain why the statement"You're friends who are using cable designed for limited power applications as power cords" is theoretical..

Because I had specifically referred to Belden 19364 and 83803 cords which are appropriate for use as power cords in every respect. All the specs and UL/CES certifications can quickly be found on the Belden website.

Hmmm..I have reviewed all my posts, and have not identified what I would consider a "wild ass guess"..please elaborate.

That comment was not at all directed at you.

I believe the term "your friends" means, umm, your friends...I did not notice an accusation that you personally are using cords above their rating.

This rant by Bruce is wholly without merit with regards to the two cords I referenced (or others that I use):

"1) Violating the National Electric Code(and maybe several state and local ones) for using a wire with insufficient insulation characteristics.
2) Likely not to be covered by their homeowners insurance in the event of a fire.
3) Putting their safety and the safety of their family at risk for the previously mentioned reasons."

I can design a #12 awg power cord which will outperform your 9 guage beast, in your system...in fact, in all systems. However, the solution has not been tested to UL standards. I had gone so far as to inquire on NRE and production costing for the wire, as well as initial queries into the costing of said UL approval...

While I really have no idea which particular aspect(s) of the Harmonic Technology design are responsible for its performance, I suspect it has more to do with the use of 6N pure OFC silver conductors for the hot and neutral, OFC copper for the earth and multiple layers of UL/CL-3 shielding than the gauge alone. It is eerily quiet and thus detailed.

Please re-visit all my previous posts, so that you may realize that I have not attacked you..

Ditto as above regarding WAGs. Others, however, attack that which they don't understand or that which they simply make up.

PS...I woulda gone with a different color...purple over a green rug???geeeeeze...

Yeah, yeah I didn't have a choice. My other JPS Labs cables are all black. Now that the house is going on nine years old, I'll be replacing that carpet soon anyway. I'm going with a gray theme there having painted the walls and covered (some of) my bass traps in gray cloth. I've gotta bribe my wife to finish the stitchery in the remaining traps.

rw

[jneutron]

Because I had specifically referred to Belden 19364 and 83803 cords which are appropriate for use as power cords in every respect. All the specs and UL/CES certifications can quickly be found on the Belden website. rw

Ah...ok..what bruce said was referring to the use of unsafe cords, a #14 by design, is not within that category with a 15 amp outlet.. You both are talking past each other..

That comment was not at all directed at you.
rw

Ah, ok...My apologies for thinking incorrectly.

This rant by Bruce is wholly without merit with regards to the two cords I referenced (or others that I use):
rw

He was referring to others with your beliefs, using undersized cords...you know of several out there that shouldn't even be used to power a nightlight..

While I really have no idea which particular aspect(s) of the Harmonic Technology design are responsible for its performance, I suspect it has more to do with the use of 6N pure OFC silver conductors for the hot and neutral, OFC copper for the earth and multiple layers of UL/CL-3 shielding than the gauge alone. It is eerily quiet and thus detailed.rw

I'm confident the purity of the silver is of no merit, nor the purity of the copper. And multiple layers of any copper, silver, or aluminum shielding of any form, is useless for inducted noise..

The design is a curious mixture of extreme overkill with conductor sizing, the silly use of various metal schemes, and just tossing lots of shield at the problem without understanding what they are actually doing engineering wise..It is trivial to actually do it right, but that understanding is beyond them..

BTW, was the cord evaluated as meeting UL requirements after all those layers of shield and insulation were applied? I had an application that totally fried a bunch of #0 size conductor even though only 25 amps was in each cable..the big boss had a tech put zippertube over the bundle of wires while I was on vaca, and the whole kaboodle overheated and melted..

I'm glad that you are happy with the cord, as that is really what counts..and, since I do not provide an alternate, far superior product for you to use, you audio guys really have no choice in the matter....detailing of how to properly build a line cord would impact the aftermarket cord industry in a bad way, I also have no desire to do such..I am sensitive to people earning a living..

Others, however, attack that which they don't understand or that which they simply make up.rw

Geeze, so many on both sides of the fence fall into that category....

My statement on civility was just a general one, hoping that the two of you could simply calm down and stop talking past one another..

Yeah, yeah I didn't have a choice. My other JPS Labs cables are all black. Now that the house is going on nine years old, I'll be replacing that carpet soon anyway. I'm going with a gray theme there having painted the walls and covered (some of) my bass traps in gray cloth. I've gotta bribe my wife to finish the stitchery in the remaining traps. rw

Ya gotta love how some of our choices are made..you are lucky in that your significant other puts up with your audio fanaticism...I also am lucky in that regard..

Cheers, John