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  1. #26
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjjanzen
    A friend of mine is an incredible musician with a terrific ear, and also has his PhD in physics. His recommendation: zip cord. The physics behind cables is well established and it's relatively clear that cable is cable (more or less). The debate, IMO, is on the psychological side. I don't doubt for one second that people 'hear' a difference with different cables. I probably would too if I spent 300/ft . The fact that no one can come up with a reason that cables are superior/inferior other than to say "I can hear it", does not inspire me to go out and splurge on expensive cables. Again, I'm not disputing that the don't hear a difference. I just think that the difference they hear is probably only perceived, and may not be 'real'. That doesn't mean they are stupid, only human (insert "humans are stupid" joke here).
    To me, what it boils down to is how much improvement are you really getting for the amount of money spent? It's easy to spend thousands of dollars on cabling, and whether or not it's worthwhile depends on your price tolerance and how much you've done elsewhere in your system.

    As MM pointed out, the room acoustics are hugely important. The room acoustics are also the most widely ignored part of the audio system because it's not a quick fix that can be readily packaged, marketed, and sold. It actually requires that you learn about sound properties, and preferably do your own measurements before you go about trying to prescribe a solution.

    For problems in the low frequencies, cables won't do squat. The physics will tell you that boundary interactions can create all kinds of alterations to the low frequencies. Once you measure them and identify the magnitude of the problem, then you can choose the approach that will address that particular issue.

    In general, I would put the speakers and the room acoustics at the very top of the list of priority upgrades. Then, I would look at any analog components you might have. The amplification and front end sources come up next. Cables and interconnects are a much lower priority for upgrading, unless you actually have EM interference problems. And even there, it doesn't take much of a step up before you find cables that have enough shielding to address the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by jjjanzen
    Maybe I'm too scepticle, but testing different cables sound is so subjective and at the mercy of so many variables (source equip, proper connection, speakers, listeners mood, the actual song, background noise, time between listening sessions, CD recording quality), that until some guy in a lab coat and glasses with bonafied credentials tells me otherwise, i think my money is best spent elsewhere in my system.
    That's a wise approach, but on the flip side, don't get too caught up in looking for credentials and specs. Audio systems are for listening, and you should indulge your ears as much as possible. You can dissect the causal factors all you want once you've found the sound that you like.

  2. #27
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    Shielding is not a cable metric, it is measure of protection for the signal in a given environment.
    And a very desirable performance parameter as it can lower the noise floor. Would you buy a tire that is NOT resistant to hydroplaning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    I guess an analogy would be designing a skyscraper. You obviously need to consider hurricanes and earthquakes when you design the structure (thickness of steel, use of cement, flexibility points, etc.) but you don't actually do tests on a completed building.
    How does that relate to testing completed cables in their real world environments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    Motorola would analyze the range of envirnments the product is expected to operate in and then apply current good engineering practices regarding shielding.
    Those being?

    Would a Wrigley's chewing wrapper foil work sufficiently? If not, why not?

    rw

  3. #28
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    Aw, c'mon...

    ...looks like grasping-at-straws time to me...

    As MM stated, Belden makes product to fit specific purposes...certain industrial apps are a given...there are formulae, mathematcal models, CAD and the like to aid in design but, it's up to the user(vendor) to determine if that specific design works for them...the real question is: how do these aftermarket companies test for all the items and scenarios you've offered...do they expose their wares to all the possible sources and types of RFI/EMI/EIEIO?

    So, if it's not hash from the power source...how many other things can cause problems? proximity to power lines? radio stations? the unique wiring configurations of each home or business? the amount of electronic garbage generated from within?

    A simple piece of wire is most susceptible...so maybe a twisted pair is a bit better at keeping the signal coherent and providing a measure of shielding, working it's way up to a CAT5 configuration...keeping in mind, every change in one parameter has an effect on other measurements, in this case capacitance, so designs will make trade-offs...then coax...start with a simple, stranded wrap-aroundwith minimal coverage...then a foil or a tighter weave or perhaps both...then a conductor or two in a foil segregated from other conductors and then all foiled and/or in a weave or both...it's all dependent on use and again remember, in business you buy and pay for what you need...and then there's mil-spec which is usually overkill, based on worst-case scenarios...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    And a very desirable performance parameter as it can lower the noise floor
    Can it? I thought that to be more of a power supply issue...if the "A" battery provides clean power, I don't know how anything external to it can have an effect, provided that the circuit topography and a well-designed metal case minimize the potential point-of -entry for unwanted interference.

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Would you buy a tire that is NOT resistant to hydroplaning?
    It can be minimized, there are no guarantees that I'm aware of...too many variables, the a-hole NASCAR/LeMans wannabees being the most egregious...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    How does that relate to testing completed cables in their real world environments?
    Again, and I sure much like the consumer-level disclaimer, beyond specs, no representation for suitability for each and every application is, or can be, given. It's up to the purchaser to go beyond that level. See my question re: aftermarket providers in paragraph one.

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Those being?
    I'm sorry, that's a silly question IMO...much like the earlier request for speculation as to Belden's methodology, you are asking someone outside the company to provide info they can't possibly have...asking Motorola would seem to be the logical course of action.

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Would a Wrigley's chewing wrapper foil work sufficiently? If not, why not?
    Maybe...I've seen some instrument effects pedals that used a simple foil wrap on short jumpers with success...again, too many variables to be any more specific...maybe Reynolds wrap or heavy-duty Reynolds if it's a real turkey.

    I think industry has far more possible sources to contend with than our little crumb of the slice-O-pie we're concerned with...they seem so get things done without re-inventing the wheel.

    jimHJJ(...is this horse sufficiently dead yet...)

  4. #29
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    As MM stated, Belden makes product to fit specific purposes...certain industrial apps are a given...there are formulae, mathematcal models, CAD and the like to aid in design but, it's up to the user(vendor) to determine if that specific design works for them...the real question is: how do these aftermarket companies test for all the items and scenarios you've offered...do they expose their wares to all the possible sources and types of RFI/EMI/EIEIO?
    As with MM, you danced around the question using far more words than necessary. So there is no common test for RF rejection. Interestingly, their 83803 "fire alarm" cable has multiple shielding strategies as opposed to 19364 "portable cordage" which uses only the "Beldfoil" aluminum shield. Both have been used for audio component power cords.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    So, if it's not hash from the power source...how many other things can cause problems?
    All the devices I previously mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    It can be minimized, there are no guarantees that I'm aware of...too many variables, the a-hole NASCAR/LeMans wannabees being the most egregious...
    My point is simply that there are relevant performance considerations for many devices beyond it's basic metrics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Again, and I sure much like the consumer-level disclaimer, beyond specs, no representation for suitability for each and every application is, or can be, given. It's up to the purchaser to go beyond that level. See my question re: aftermarket providers in paragraph one.
    Ditto as above. LCR ain't the whole story for a range of cables used in audio applications.

    rw

  5. #30
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    I won't dance, don't ask me...

    ...sorry you feel that I am, but I earlier gave my best guesstimate at what such testing would entail...I have ab-so-lute-ly no idea as to what Belden's test protocols might be.

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    So there is no common test for RF rejection
    .

    I didn't say that...and I don't believe MM did either...there are standard usages, but anyone can use practically anything for any nearly purpose, generally speaking...example: Teflon coated CAT5 wire is designed to transmit data with maximum signal coherence when wired through common air conditioning returns...it's a fire saftey directive in NYC...you can use Plain ol' CAT5 if you are running it in another environment...so if someone takes this more "exotic" PTFE wire and applies it to interconnects, who is then responsible for "testing"?...and what exactly will they be "testing" for? AND how will they do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    ...their 83803 "fire alarm" cable has multiple shielding strategies as opposed to 19364 "portable cordage" which uses only the "Beldfoil" aluminum shield...
    Well, the former has a specific application...and again I'd guess something sold for a "life-or-death" app better be up to the task...The wire will be run where other wires will be cohabiting with it...Power, phone, data, CATV, various control circuits...Belden(or any other wire manufacturer) has no control over the environment in which it will be placed or the forms of "hash" it will have to try to guard against...It does have to work with equipment or circuits appropriate for it's function with no adverse loading effects, etc. so there are other considerations to be taken into account.Do they take a worst-case-scenario philosophy? You would have to ask them...

    The latter, non-critical applications with a minimum cost, commensurate with general guidelines for a "class" of purpose...I see it as simply logical business practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Both have been used for audio component power cords.
    Are the wires themselves rated for such use?..Can they handle the voltage and current for such an application? Does the design of the "new" product in any way compromise the integrity or suitability of the original item? Are they UL listed for this use? You can put yer boots in the oven, but that don't make 'em biscuits...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    My point is simply that there are relevant performance considerations for many devices beyond it's basic metrics.
    Ahhh...the wonderful gray area of audiophilia!!! Who has identified these "considerations"? How have they tested and proven their product's "superiority" in any given respect...Use and listening tests?...Sorry, too many variables, ranging from the myriad number of potential gear combinations, to the type and strength of "interference"... NO ONE can possibly test for every scenario, not Belden and certainly these smaller aftermarket specialists...Are you the R&D?...Great if you feel like doin' it...

    jimHJJ(...I personally am not up to the task...particularly in light of the dubious qualities of the net results...)

  6. #31
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...sorry you feel that I am, but I earlier gave my best guesstimate at what such testing would entail
    And I couldn't care less as to how such a measurement is carried out as much as what to measure. You continue to harp on "they can't possibly know all the ways the wire is going to be used" and that is irrelevant for my question. You don't have to know how someone uses a rope in order to measure it's tensile strength. Neither do you have to know how a wire is used in order to measure it's characteristics, either. You have to identify a metric and quantify it. The analysis of the results is then used afterwards for specific application suitability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Are the wires themselves rated for such use?..Can they handle the voltage and current for such an application?
    12/3 and 14/3 is quite sufficient to handle the current needs of most audio amplifiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Ahhh...the wonderful gray area of audiophilia!!! Who has identified these "considerations"?
    The answer would be every single cable manufacturer who produces shielded audio wires. That would pretty much be all of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    How have they tested and proven their product's "superiority" in any given respect...Use and listening tests?
    Now it's time for me to throw the same irrelevant, "how can I possibly know what Belden and others are thinking in their product offerings" line to you. THERE IS A REASON and it is not based on LCR metrics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ..Sorry, too many variables, ranging from the myriad number of potential gear combinations, to the type and strength of "interference"... NO ONE can possibly test for every scenario, not Belden and certainly these smaller aftermarket specialists...Are you the R&D?...Great if you feel like doin' it...
    Forget all that. Bruce (who still hasn't responded) and others continue to harp the simplistic tune that LCR parameters are all that is relevant to the audibility of cables. OBVIOUSLY, that is not the case. Virtually ALL microphone cable, for example, is shielded and LCR metrics don't quantify any aspect of that facet of its design.

    rw

  7. #32
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    Ok...

    ...what DO "they" measure? What do any of the aftermarket guys measure? It's all done by ear? Again, given all the variables, what do they listen for?

    Shielding is noise rejection as far as I am aware...straight wire with no gain...nothing added, nothing taken away. It seems as though just about every piece of gear has as it's basic premise, the unsullied passage of a signal's waveform...there are expectations as to the "traffic" and conditions it will encounter in it's travel...If the noise floor is limited by the active devices in the path, what do you expect to do, lower it further by use of a passive one, i.e. wire?

    Shielded wire by design "shields"...there are special circumstances that require other designs...

    Tensile strength? You may be able to take measurement or estimate a number, but there ARE other considerations, so it's not so simple...and it's use is not irrelevant in the overall equation...There's static and active...rope can haul, but it can be used for other purposes...loads are applied to the point of failure...bang! you get a number...climbing ropes are made specifically for that purpose, same type of load testing, sorta'...HOWEVER, climbing rope has a fixed number of times for which it can be used, how many times it can withstand the stretch/shock stress before it MUST be discarded as per the mfr....it is used for NO OTHER purpose during its active life...You surely would not use a hemp rope of similar load bearing properties in lieu of a certified climber's rope; hence some things ARE purpose specific. Other materials have burst strength, torsional loads, etc. all of which are specified and tested for known entities...as is shielding of cable. With wire, it's the ability to reject any change to the signal being carried...

    jimHJJ(...unfortunately, gotta' go...tomorrow's another day...)

  8. #33
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat

    Virtually ALL microphone cable, for example, is shielded and LCR metrics don't quantify any aspect of that facet of its design.

    rw
    No? then why is there a specification for capacitance to the shield?????

    -Bruce

  9. #34
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    No? then why is there a specification for capacitance to the shield?????
    Do you believe that has anything to do with quantifying the efficacy of the shield?

    rw

  10. #35
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Do you believe that has anything to do with quantifying the efficacy of the shield?

    rw
    That wasn't the statement made. There is both a specification on shield coverage and capacitance to the shield, the latter, seeing as this discussion has been about LCR, would be the more appropriate topic.

    -Bruce

  11. #36
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    There is both a specification on shield coverage and capacitance to the shield, the latter, seeing as this discussion has been about LCR, would be the more appropriate topic.
    Bruce, my point since January is that given the plethora of shielded audio cables on the market, there is OBVIOUSLY more to quantifying the performance characteristics of cables that affects audibility other than simply LCR. Comprende?

    First attempt:

    Sighted Testing IS King!! Silly me - all those years wasted...

    Second attempt:

    Great Article on Cables

    Let's see if asking the question for the third time will be the charm.

    How do you measure the efficacy of various cable shielding strategies?

    rw

  12. #37
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Bruce, my point since January is that given the plethora of shielded audio cables on the market, there is OBVIOUSLY more to quantifying the performance characteristics of cables that affects audibility other than simply LCR. Comprende?

    First attempt:

    Sighted Testing IS King!! Silly me - all those years wasted...

    Second attempt:

    Great Article on Cables

    Let's see if asking the question for the third time will be the charm.

    How do you measure the efficacy of various cable shielding strategies?

    rw
    I wasn't replying to your post, therefore I could care less about your point, which was off topic for the post I replied to.

    -Bruce

  13. #38
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Forget all that. Bruce (who still hasn't responded) and others continue to harp the simplistic tune that LCR parameters are all that is relevant to the audibility of cables. OBVIOUSLY, that is not the case. Virtually ALL microphone cable, for example, is shielded and LCR metrics don't quantify any aspect of that facet of its design.

    rw
    And as usual, you have no idea what you're talking about. -Bruce

  14. #39
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    How do you measure the efficacy of various cable shielding strategies?

    rw

    If you wanted to learn something about shielding, a simple google search would have yielded you all the information you could ever wanted on the subject.....

    Start here:

    http://bwcecom.belden.com/college/techpprs/tpbroad.htm

    http://www.eng.cse.dmu.ac.uk/aeg/aly...Zt_and_SE.html

    -Bruce

  15. #40
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    And as usual, you have no idea what you're talking about. -Bruce
    That's an informative response. I really didn't believe you had any notion about the role of shielding. You confirmed it.

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 07-15-2005 at 07:11 PM.

  16. #41
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    That's an informative response. I really didn't believe you had any notion about the role of shielding. You confirmed it.

    rw
    HAHAHAHAHAHA, now you're asking a different question......

    I guess you missed the provided links to your previous question.

    -Bruce

  17. #42
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    And I couldn't care less as to how such a measurement is carried out as much as what to measure.
    What to measure. Depends on the expected(or recommended) application.

    You continue to harp on "they can't possibly know all the ways the wire is going to be used" and that is irrelevant for my question. You don't have to know how someone uses a rope in order to measure it's tensile strength. Neither do you have to know how a wire is used in order to measure it's characteristics, either. You have to identify a metric and quantify it. The analysis of the results is then used afterwards for specific application suitability.
    You have it backwards, you need to know the tensile strength of the rope in order to properly use the rope. That's part of your problem, you're perspective is incorrect.


    12/3 and 14/3 is quite sufficient to handle the current needs of most audio amplifiers.
    If you think that's all there is to it, you're gravely mistaken. You're friends who are using cable designed for limited power applications as power cords as you mentioned, are:

    1) Violating the National Electric Code(and maybe several state and local ones) for using a wire with insufficient insulation characteristics.
    2) Likely not to be covered by their homeowners insurance in the event of a fire.
    3) Putting their safety and the safety of their family at risk for the previously mentioned reasons.

    So there are your things that DON'T come down to LCR metrics......

    -Bruce

  18. #43
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    I'm referring to this quote of yours:

    Cables have been tested to death for decades and no one, but no one has been able to find any property that doesn't boil down to L-C-R. Period.

    Obviously, that is incorrect given the presence of shielding in a wide range of cables.


    rw
    No, it's not. Shielding is essentially another conductor, as such, has resistance, capacitance to other condctors, and inductance. This will influence how the cable conducts the desired signal.

    -Bruce

  19. #44
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    If you think that's all there is to it, you're gravely mistaken.
    Quite the contrary. For years, my experience using a range of cable products is that shielding of all sorts offers sonic benefits in my environment. Not to mention other aspects of construction as well.

    THAT IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG.

    As for my comments specifically regarding current, they are sound. A 14 gauge power cord can more than adequately conduct the current of most consumer power amps. Do the math yourself. While my present amp cords are 10 gauge, the original UL listed cords for my 10 amp VTL monoblocks are 16 gauge. Moving much past that requires 20 amp plugs and circuits anyway. The Passlabs XA-200s require such.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    You're friends who are using cable designed for limited power applications as power cords as you mentioned, are...
    I am friends who are using cables...? I don't have the foggiest notion of what you are trying to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    So there are your things that DON'T come down to LCR metrics.....
    BINGO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Give that man a gold star!



    I enjoyed the benefits of cable shielding and RF suppression years before I read your Googled articles.

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 07-19-2005 at 05:25 AM.

  20. #45
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Quite the contrary. For years, my experience using a range of cable products is that shielding of all sorts offers sonic benefits in my environment. Not to mention other aspects of construction as well.

    THAT IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG.
    Your sonic experience is meaningless in the realm of engineering.

    As for my comments specifically regarding current, they are sound. A 14 gauge power cord can more than adequately conduct the current of most consumer power amps. Do the math yourself. While my present amp cords are 10 gauge, the original UL listed cords for my 10 amp VTL monoblocks are 16 gauge. Moving much past that requires 20 amp plugs and circuits anyway. The Passlabs XA-200s require such.
    Again, current isn't the whole story, which I already explained thoroughly.

    I am friends who are using cables...? I don't have the foggiest notion of what you are trying to say.
    Funny guy. A simple typo, you can't be that obtuse not to figure it out, although that WOULD explain a lot.

    I enjoyed the benefits of cable shielding and RF suppression years before I read your Googled articles.

    rw
    Whoopie! I'm thoroughly uninpressed.

    -Bruce

  21. #46
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    you can't be that obtuse not to figure it out, although that WOULD explain a lot.
    If you are actually making the groundless (no pun intended) claim that high quality aftermarket power cords are unsafe, then perhaps you should go to the Consumer Product Safety Council website and check out the results.

    At the expense of confusing the issue with facts, you will quickly find recalls for defective Motorola components in 1999 and again in 2002, but none for any cable manufacturers at all.

    BTW, Nordost, Harmonic Technology, and others use FEP (Teflon) as the insulation material. NASA also seems to think it works nifty keen as that was used as the outer insulation for the Hubble Space Telescope.

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 07-19-2005 at 11:14 AM.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    BTW, Nordost, Harmonic Technology, and others use FEP (Teflon) as the insulation material. NASA also seems to think it works nifty keen as that was used as the outer insulation for the Hubble Space Telescope.
    rw
    Do not confuse electrical insulation with thermal insulation.. they are entirely different applications.

    John

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron
    Do not confuse electrical insulation with thermal insulation.. they are entirely different applications.
    While that's true, if I understand Bruce's ridiculous speculations correctly, he is referring to fire resistance. In fact, Teflon is specifically designed for electrical cables where fire safety is of high concern.

    Teflon fire resistance

    rw

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    While that's true, if I understand Bruce's ridiculous speculations correctly, he is referring to fire resistance. In fact, Teflon is specifically designed for electrical cables where fire safety is of high concern.

    Teflon fire resistance

    rw
    I would be hesitant to call his speculations as ridiculous...let's examine:
    Quote Originally Posted by flzapped
    1) Violating the National Electric Code(and maybe several state and local ones) for using a wire with insufficient insulation characteristics.
    I would categorize "insulation characteristics" as encompassing the following..

    A. The material's ability to remain unchanged in the temperature range of interest...flammability, chemical makeup, electrical isolation ability at all temps, it's ability to retain form..all of which can impact the insulation's ability to perform it's function.

    B. The ability of the insulation to withstand the application's physical rigors, as in abrasion resistance, ability to survive bending stresses, it's resistance to creep.

    C. If ignited, the ability to resist giving off extremely toxic byproducts, as well as self extinguishing characteristics.

    It is possible to violate the NEC through the use of an insulation material which is superior with respect to fire resistance. This is because fire resistance is only one of many parameters which the code encompasses.

    So, even though some materials may indeed be better in some aspect, use of them can be a violation of NEC, with these ramifications:

    Quote Originally Posted by flzapped
    2) Likely not to be covered by their homeowners insurance in the event of a fire.
    3) Putting their safety and the safety of their family at risk for the previously mentioned reasons.
    Just my take on what Bruce stated..

    Cheers, John

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron
    I would be hesitant to call his speculations as ridiculous...let's examine:
    I would categorize "insulation characteristics" as encompassing the following..
    Do you have any specific information as to Teflon's unsuitability for use as wire insulation (especially since it is widely used)?

    The Belden website doesn't like direct links, but go to www.belden.com and search for 83803 for various certifcations.

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 07-20-2005 at 06:53 AM.

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