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  1. #26
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Just like the cuts in taxes No way to test it.
    Every major federal income tax reduction from JFK's to Ronald Reagan's to W's has resulted in an increase in overall tax revenue. The IRS stats are easy to find on www.irs.gov.

    rw

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackz4000
    Firstly, not everyone who reads or posts on this board could be considered an "audiophile". Many are new to HT and have alot of questions. As am I. And, in the past a number of my questions were well answered here. Its an excellent board. If you had read my few other posts on the subject you would also read that,..."one should use the cable they want." That everyone "hears" a bit differently. That some do have more acute hearing than do others. And on some high end systems one may hear a difference in the cable used.

    Having once been an audio salesman and audio buyer for a small audio chain, I am aware of the various reasons a salesman will steer a customer to higher end cables. There are "sales programs and incentives" etc for selling high. Usually a commish too. The mark-up on cables far exceeds the mark-up on hard goods. And thats just all part of the biz, no big deal. If they couldn't make money; they would have to close their doors.

    I don't think that high end cables ($20 per ft) will make a significant difference on a mid-level system, as much as the quality of the components and the given room acoustics. Its fine that you are of a different opinion. Have a nice day.
    Actually, my opinion is not much different than what you just wrote.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockwell
    So, you are saying that at least some of the performance of your system comes from the wires? That is a claim that is testable by you via a bit of blind listening. You could settle that matter for yourself and we wont have any need to listen to it. Although, I sure would like to hear it.
    It may or may not be a claim. I won't say that I'm sure to a reasonable scientific certainty that cables make a difference, although all of my experience tells me that they do. However, my comment was addressed more to the mind set that seems to eschew a "normal" approach to audio where, as with most things we buy as consumers, we don't obsess to the point of conducting scientically valid blind tests. I believe that if I had insisted on scienfic validation for my choices I would not have achieved what I have with my system. If that's a claim, then so be it. However, consider the source, lack of expertise of the person making the claim, and lack of scientific verification of the claim.

    As for doing my own blind testing, I have no interest in doing that. I'm not "afraid" of what I might find. It's just such tests are irrelevant for my purposes. My purpose is to derive the maximum perceived performance out of my system. Trying to develop and conduct a scientific test to verify the scientific validity of my choices is not important to me. Enjoying my system is and I employ the method that works for me.

    And the result is one of the most amazing systems I have ever heard. Am I biased? Of course I am. However, there have been many times during the last 30 years I would not have made such a claim. In fact, it wasn't until I got a true dedicated soundroom about 5 years ago, spent over a year dealing exclusively with room accoustics, and then having gone as far as I could with that started doing serious long-term auditioning of my equipment and cables. I made very judicious choices and anything new I introduced went through at least 30 days of long term trial before a decision was made. I rejected between 20 to 30 different cables until settling on the ones I have had for the past 2 years.

    The other thing that helped dramatically in achieving the level of performance I have is in returning to vinyl as my primary serious-listening source. I have what I believe is one of the best redbook digital front ends available and it just doesn't get to where my vinyl front end does.

    None of this is scientifically based. But for me the end product is what matters, and I doubt very seriously that those who demand scientific validation for the audio choices could ever hope to dream of achieving the results that I have.

    If that sounds boastful or arrogant, I apologize. I'm just trying to be upfront with where I stand personally on all of this. For the past year and a-half I have focused primarily on discussing objective validation and truths on the audio boards. I've said everything I can think of about that, so I'm prepared to return to discussing more of my personal (non-scientific) "guesses" and my personal (non-scientifc) experiences with audio.

    If you think that kind of stuff is worthless, then you may want to refrain from reading my posts for a while. I understand there is a way on this board you can block posts from certain members.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Well, you are on the safe side of the bet here. How are you going to test this? Who will haul his rig to your home to compare, DBT? Just like the cuts in taxes No way to test it.
    Of course there is no way to test it. I'm merely expressing my opinion based on my personal experience. In other words, I've moved from discussing things as if the purpose of home audio was to serve as a lab for scientific testing to discussing home audio as if it were meant primary as a souce of enjoyment.

    If you hadn't noticed, in the "real" world, people express personal opinions all the time. Some involve questions of taste, not subject to validation. Others involve objective issues that are subject to validation. But most of us don't worry about stuff like validating every opinion we hear expressed. We take personal opinions with a grain of salt and try things for ourselves. Those of us who are secure and self-confident enough to make our own decisions about what we like and don't like need neither scientific validation nor the validation one might get over at Cable Asylum.

    As I said above, I have said every possible thing I can think of regarding objective validation. I'm tired of repeating myself. I've been an audiophile for over 30 years. For those who believe subjective opinions of such a person might have value, perhaps I can make some small contribution. For those like you who find such stuff unreliable and "worthless", that's your choice. In the end, we each live with the consequences of our choices. What I know is that I'm currently living with one of the most enjoyable systems I have ever heard.

    While you provide very good information to a newcomer, I believe that on the whole your obsessive effort to discourage people from just trying cables and other things for themselves. I believe someone who follows that advice may never know what he could be missing.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    Of course there is no way to test it. I'm merely expressing my opinion based on my personal experience. In other words, I've moved from discussing things as if the purpose of home audio was to serve as a lab for scientific testing to discussing home audio as if it were meant primary as a souce of enjoyment.

    If you hadn't noticed, in the "real" world, people express personal opinions all the time. Some involve questions of taste, not subject to validation. Others involve objective issues that are subject to validation. But most of us don't worry about stuff like validating every opinion we hear expressed. We take personal opinions with a grain of salt and try things for ourselves. Those of us who are secure and self-confident enough to make our own decisions about what we like and don't like need neither scientific validation nor the validation one might get over at Cable Asylum.

    As I said above, I have said every possible thing I can think of regarding objective validation. I'm tired of repeating myself. I've been an audiophile for over 30 years. For those who believe subjective opinions of such a person might have value, perhaps I can make some small contribution. For those like you who find such stuff unreliable and "worthless", that's your choice. In the end, we each live with the consequences of our choices. What I know is that I'm currently living with one of the most enjoyable systems I have ever heard.

    While you provide very good information to a newcomer, I believe that on the whole your obsessive effort to discourage people from just trying cables and other things for themselves. I believe someone who follows that advice may never know what he could be missing.
    Well said. Our experience is quite similar. I had a pretty decent Advent-Dynaco-Lenco-Shure system when I was 16 thirty one years ago. If I had believed there was none better, I would never have been exposed to equipment that has given me immense pleasure over many a year. I still enjoy the discovery of hearing even better.

    rw

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Every major federal income tax reduction from JFK's to Ronald Reagan's to W's has resulted in an increase in overall tax revenue. The IRS stats are easy to find on www.irs.gov.

    rw

    Ah, so for you that is a cause and effect? How gullible of you. Why not just cyclical natural events? The more income the more taxes are paid. Oh, yes, I forgot, you need a tax cut to make more income, right?
    mtrycrafts

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    Of course there is no way to test it. I'm merely expressing my opinion based on my personal experience. In other words, I've moved from discussing things as if the purpose of home audio was to serve as a lab for scientific testing to discussing home audio as if it were meant primary as a souce of enjoyment.

    If you hadn't noticed, in the "real" world, people express personal opinions all the time. Some involve questions of taste, not subject to validation. Others involve objective issues that are subject to validation. But most of us don't worry about stuff like validating every opinion we hear expressed. We take personal opinions with a grain of salt and try things for ourselves. Those of us who are secure and self-confident enough to make our own decisions about what we like and don't like need neither scientific validation nor the validation one might get over at Cable Asylum.

    As I said above, I have said every possible thing I can think of regarding objective validation. I'm tired of repeating myself. I've been an audiophile for over 30 years. For those who believe subjective opinions of such a person might have value, perhaps I can make some small contribution. For those like you who find such stuff unreliable and "worthless", that's your choice. In the end, we each live with the consequences of our choices. What I know is that I'm currently living with one of the most enjoyable systems I have ever heard.

    While you provide very good information to a newcomer, I believe that on the whole your obsessive effort to discourage people from just trying cables and other things for themselves. I believe someone who follows that advice may never know what he could be missing.
    I am not discouraging anyone to try cables, only the problems associated with such trials. They should know those problems and how it relates to the outcome.

    Same with what you stated. You may have a very fine system, that is not the point, especially your enjoyment of it.You don't remember a poster from the distant past, eyespy,

    http://2eyespy.tripod.com/myaudioand...epage/id3.html

    had expensive cable because he enjoyd them, not because he could tell audible differences. He never claimd such.

    But, some may get the idea that that is the answer for hearing differences. No, your system is for your enjoyment. My boombox is for my enjoyment And, e-stats is for his enjoyment. No harm meant
    mtrycrafts

  8. #33
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Why not just cyclical natural events? Oh, yes, I forgot, you need a tax cut to make more income, right?
    Because they were not cyclical. The answer to your second question is yes. Remember that 80% of all income tax is paid by the top 10% of filers. I have done some independent consulting before. Given the marginal tax rate and paying both sides of FICA, it adds up to 47%. At that rate, I have little incentive to work harder.

    rw

  9. #34
    Forum Regular Monstrous Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    You're stretching to find poor, ignorant, helpless victims that deperately need you to rescue them.
    If you have never soured on a decision about anything, whether audio, vehicular or even females of the opposite sex, then you are indeed a blessed man. And further, if you have never needed the advice and help of others then you are either stupid or perfect.


    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    ...if I had listened to the advice that MM, mtrycrafts and other fellow "objectivists" routinely dispense I would never have achieved for myself the level of performance my system offers.
    Talk about stretching! You make it sound like I am incapable of procuring an awesome sounding system and putting it in an acoustically pleasing setting. Please! I have always maintained that given identical amounts of money, I would take some from cabling and source components (i.e. in a typical audiophile budget) and transfer it to room acoustics with leftovers for upgrading speakers. Is this what you mean by objectivists' "advice".

    [QUOTE=pctower]I doubt that few audiophiles (and particularly ones that usually hang out on this board) have ever heard a system that even comes close in performance to mine. QUOTE]
    I don't doubt for a minute that your system doesn't sound awesome, probably a league or two above mine. But if you can quantify that some of that performance is due to the quality of your cabling, then you are a better scientist and engineer than I am.


    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    Had they, I personally can't imagine how they could be so cock-sure of themselves.
    I don't think I'm the one who is cock-sure.
    Friends help friends move,
    Good friends help friends move bodies....

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    If you have never soured on a decision about anything, whether audio, vehicular or even females of the opposite sex, then you are indeed a blessed man.


    Talk about stretching!


    I don't think I'm the one who is cock-sure.
    I have been married only once, to my childhood sweetheart I met 40 years ago. When you've got the best, souring doesn't enter the picture.

    I have soured on other things, but I certainly don't need the help of do-gooders to "rescue" me.

    As for my "stretching", I have tried to be judicious and circumspect in posting my own opinions, and of course as a result I have been crowned the World's Greatest Fence-Sitter. Occasionally, I feel compelled to express my opinions. I try to state them in such a way that it is clear that it is just my opinion.

    I can't erase the last 30 years of experience I've had as an avid audiophile and I can't erase the experience I have every time I sit down in my soundroom for serious listening. I'm well aware that you live in a world of measurements and that experience like mine is worthless as far as you're concerned. If my opinions bother you too much, consider the blocking option.

  11. #36
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    Does anyone ever get burned out???

    Hell yes. Most move on, except for those who enjoy the argument.

  12. #37
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    I can't take it anymore, I just unsubscribed to this thread. I guess I burned out very quickly.
    Denon AVR 5700 - CINEPRO Power Conditioner
    Monitor Audio Silver Series Speakers
    Main: Silver 9s, Center: Silver 12s, Surround: Silver 4s
    Miller & Kreisel MX-125 MK II Subwoofer
    MIT Terminator 2 BiWire Speaker Cables and MIT Interconnects
    Denon DVD-2500 (No Play), Sony DVP-NS725P (New)
    Mitsubishi 36" Direct View TV (10 Years Old)
    Considering Sony's NEW! KD-36XS955 36-inch FD TrinitronŽ WEGAŽ XBRŽ Hi-ScanŽ TV

  13. #38
    Forum Regular Monstrous Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    If my opinions bother you too much, consider the blocking option.
    Are you kidding? Most of the time, you make my day.
    Friends help friends move,
    Good friends help friends move bodies....

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