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do speaker cables make a difference???
the answer is a positive YES
recently i posted how interconnects made a difference. Tara Labs 5500i sounded more mellow and more agreable than monster THX (with music).
But now ive compared tara labs speaker cables (14awg) with Carol Superflex 12awg bought at home depot. I swear by this, cables make 110% difference for sure. There is no question, i gave them a very fair trial (to the point that i wanted HD to be the same! talk about bias i wanted them so much to be so the same that i went out of my way to do the trade!!) and the are not. As far as i am concerned, i am 110% sure that speaker cables DO make a difference. So, I will now look into higher quality (which of course comes with a bigger pirece tag) speaker cables. After all, i did spend a few grand on my system. Sorry to everyone that really thinks speaker cables make no audible difference - because they do! I swear by this too. So does my girlfriend to the point that not only did both of us say that Tara was better, but we both gave the same sound qualities that were different.
Again, sorry to all you non-believers because i really wanted to believe that there was no audible difference between speaker cables. Unfortunately (financially), there is.
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You are 110% sure?!
Nobody has ever shown that loudspeakercables of reasonable construction is audbile different from 12 AWG cable. From your description there is nothing that support your "110%". To do confidence testing you need to make a blind test. With the help of some friends and random trial. If you can pick correct cable 20/20 then you are close to 100% confidence.
You have shown nothing of this, and thus you claim that there are audible differences, is just something many claim but nobody has ever been able to prove during ≈ 30 years of cable debate.
T
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Another walking talking advertisement for the cottage audio cable industry. How do I know you are not a shill? OK, I'll play your game. Let's assume you're not.
"do speaker cables make a difference???
the answer is a positive YES"
"now ive compared tara labs speaker cables (14awg) with Carol Superflex 12awg bought at home depot. I swear by this, cables make 110% difference for sure. There is no question, i gave them a very fair trial"
You'd be the first one to ever do that. Did you give them an independently conducted DBT or did you just connect them and decided they sounded better than the other cables. What YOU call fair, people who really want to get at the truth would call a joke.
"So does my girlfriend to the point that not only did both of us say that Tara was better, but we both gave the same sound qualities that were different."
If you are telling us the truth about your girlfriend, it is probably what I have concluded all along and that is that women will say ANYTHING and have learned a long time ago to just AGREE with their audio geek boyfriends and husbands to just get them to shut up about this topic which is the ultimately boring subject for them.
"I will now look into higher quality (which of course comes with a bigger pirece tag) speaker cables. After all, i did spend a few grand on my system. "
Exactly what the cable industry is hoping for. Once you get caught up in this way of thinking, they've got you. Now there is no limit to what you will ultimately spend on cables because right, wrong, or otherwise, you took the bait and are firmly on their hook.
So the great cable farce goes on.
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And the beat goes on.....
God love people and the web! Two extremes, each shouting past the other, each carrying on a glorious tradition that now spans decades:
"As far as i am concerned, i am 110% sure that speaker cables DO make a difference."
_____________________
"So the great cable farce goes on."
_____________________
Only now the whole world gets to "enjoy" this perpetual shouting match.
Is there anyone out there who just buys things because of the enjoyment he derives from his purchases (or lack thereof) and doesn't need every other human being to act and believe exactly as he does?
I guess we'd never run across such a person on the Internet. He'd be too busy listening to and enjoying his system to waste his and everyone else's time.
BTW, does all this "hot air" contribute to global warming?
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I would think that sitting on a fence would get rather painful after awhile.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
I would think that sitting on a fence would get rather painful after awhile.
Not at all. What's painful is watching so many people make wild and foolish statements.
I dare say that my platform on the fence that divides the two opposing religious camps in the wire crusades is far cleaner and more solid than the slipery pig slop in which the dogmatists of both persuasions choose to wallow.
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Everytime you sit on your fence you get shot at from both sides. Each side figures you are really on the other side. You make statements which you think will provoke discussion and it only gets people angry at you. I'd have thought that by now you would have figured that out. Generally, in a war, neutrals have a tendency to duck a lot. It's their way of surviving.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
Everytime you sit on your fence you get shot at from both sides. Each side figures you are really on the other side. You make statements which you think will provoke discussion and it only gets people angry at you. I'd have thought that by now you would have figured that out. Generally, in a war, neutrals have a tendency to duck a lot. It's their way of surviving.
If you're not on the fence you're wrong. Fact = no one has proven an audible difference with DBT's --- FACT = DBTs are not the answer in psychological testing. Therefore, both sides will never solve the issue because both sides do not understand psychological testing or validity. One side uses no science to back up their claim and the other side uses science ineptly to discredit the other. A DBT in its very definition cannot prove A=B no matter how they want to weasal around it that is a fact.
Thus you better be on the fence.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
You'd be the first one to ever do that. Did you give them an independently conducted DBT or did you just connect them and decided they sounded better than the other cables.
Same tired old "we can't tell the difference with the POS equipment we're using" argument. None of you guys has EVER provided test results using anything better than mid-fi gear.
rw
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And you have the same tired old "I can hear it but I can't prove it" and "what do you expect from that mid fi junk you listen to?" Seems like you haven't give up either.
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I worked for an audio shop for a month and I can tell you that the differance between a $15 cable and a $80 is the $15 cable makes about $1 commission and the $80 cable makes $9. Cables are marked up about 50-60%. The cable industry just wants your money, I mean the $80 cable must sound better then the $15 cable, it cost more and looks better, right?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
Same tired old "we can't tell the difference with the POS equipment we're using" argument. None of you guys has EVER provided test results using anything better than mid-fi gear.
rw
Pure speculation.
T
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first of all, my girlfriend is sitting right by my side. she actually likes stereo stuff almost as much as i do. in fact, she was the one that bought the more expensive cables, and i found a way to save her money by going with Home Depot 12awg. Without question, she was delighted at being able to save over $150 (after all, this means more shoes for her! {women have their weak points as well})
Anyway, i hoocked up the HD cables and i wanted them to work, i was very happy to have saved my girlfriend (which according to all of you should give a rats ass about stereo stuff to begin with) some money. She was very happy to do this. And then i said "honey come listen to the new speaker cable" and she flat out hated them. It made me qustion, bevcause for a moment i was psychologically overwhelnmed with wanting the HD to perform just as equal so that i could save her money which was my personal ultimate goal (wanna talk freudian here? ive read a book or two too). But she didnt like the system anymore. She said it was sounding like a car stereo(hopefully exagerrating) that it lacked soundstage and was very shrill sounding with no depth at all. Words from my girlfriend, words from the one true person that i even thought knew nothing about audiophile lifestyles! She said it, not me. And from under my dark corner i gasped, saying: sweetie, thats what i feel about these cables too! "Cables? cables?" she askied, "i thought you were playing best buy speakers just to trick me".
Guys, hear me now. there was no trick. all that was done is Home Depot cables were used in place of Tara Labs. Thats it. And she heard a difference so fast that she thought it was an entirely new system...really after this, how can you tell me there is no difference.
On another side,
If speaker cables Made No difference, then there would cease to be sooo many succesful speaker cable companys out there. You can use the "marketing" card for so long, but then it becomes mute, because neither I (captain frugal himself) nor a thousand other paying customers would simply succumb to expert marketeering unless they put "magic potion" in our cables so that when i touched them we would feel euphorically happy :).
Come on, give it a rest, no cable companys are drugging us to HAVE to like their cables better. The simple truth is that, well, there are audible differences. So sorry if your ears can not dissiminate between the two. But, my ears work damn fine.
im not saying cables will make such an apparant difference in your system, what i am saying is that cables made all the difference in a hi-fi system. if you cannot hear this still, no worries, save yourself the extra bucks. be happy- thats what should be learned here. be happy and accept that sometimes, some people will hear a big audible difference between cable manufacturers, perhaps just not you. (dont forget for a moment that i was comparing 35c/foot cables with $10/foot cables.) you wouldnt want to drive a mercedes clk with honda civic tires would you? or do you not think there is a difference?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nusiclover
first of all, my girlfriend is sitting right by my side. she actually likes stereo stuff almost as much as i do. in fact, she was the one that bought the more expensive cables, and i found a way to save her money by going with Home Depot 12awg. Without question, she was delighted at being able to save over $150 (after all, this means more shoes for her! {women have their weak points as well})
Anyway, i hoocked up the HD cables and i wanted them to work, i was very happy to have saved my girlfriend (which according to all of you should give a rats ass about stereo stuff to begin with) some money. She was very happy to do this. And then i said "honey come listen to the new speaker cable" and she flat out hated them. It made me qustion, bevcause for a moment i was psychologically overwhelnmed with wanting the HD to perform just as equal so that i could save her money which was my personal ultimate goal (wanna talk freudian here? ive read a book or two too). But she didnt like the system anymore. She said it was sounding like a car stereo(hopefully exagerrating) that it lacked soundstage and was very shrill sounding with no depth at all. Words from my girlfriend, words from the one true person that i even thought knew nothing about audiophile lifestyles! She said it, not me. And from under my dark corner i gasped, saying: sweetie, thats what i feel about these cables too! "Cables? cables?" she askied, "i thought you were playing best buy speakers just to trick me".
Guys, hear me now. there was no trick. all that was done is Home Depot cables were used in place of Tara Labs. Thats it. And she heard a difference so fast that she thought it was an entirely new system...really after this, how can you tell me there is no difference.
On another side,
If speaker cables Made No difference, then there would cease to be sooo many succesful speaker cable companys out there. You can use the "marketing" card for so long, but then it becomes mute, because neither I (captain frugal himself) nor a thousand other paying customers would simply succumb to expert marketeering unless they put "magic potion" in our cables so that when i touched them we would feel euphorically happy :).
Come on, give it a rest, no cable companys are drugging us to HAVE to like their cables better. The simple truth is that, well, there are audible differences. So sorry if your ears can not dissiminate between the two. But, my ears work damn fine.
im not saying cables will make such an apparant difference in your system, what i am saying is that cables made all the difference in a hi-fi system. if you cannot hear this still, no worries, save yourself the extra bucks. be happy- thats what should be learned here. be happy and accept that sometimes, some people will hear a big audible difference between cable manufacturers, perhaps just not you. (dont forget for a moment that i was comparing 35c/foot cables with $10/foot cables.) you wouldnt want to drive a mercedes clk with honda civic tires would you? or do you not think there is a difference?
And there has been tests using Transparents top-of-the line cable vs Supra Ply 12 AWG cable with people of the "cable believer" side. No difference.
There have been tests using a top-notch speaker system, able to reproduce a perfect square-wave, ±1 dB at listening position, and extremely low distortion. No audible differences between cables.
What I can suspect, is that poor HiFi systems might benefit with good cables since poor equipment might be sensitive to cable impedance.
T
T
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
And you have the same tired old "I can hear it but I can't prove it" and "what do you expect from that mid fi junk you listen to?" Seems like you haven't give up either.
The difference is that I qualify my comments with respect to the system involved. You make unsupported blanket claims. Which is indeed valid for the majority of folks asking what cable they should use with their Onkyo receiver.
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas_A
And there has been tests using Transparents top-of-the line cable vs Supra Ply 12 AWG cable with people of the "cable believer" side. No difference.
There have been tests using a top-notch speaker system, able to reproduce a perfect square-wave, ±1 dB at listening position, and extremely low distortion. No audible differences between cables.
Please provide details. What is a "top notch" speaker to you? Much less the rest of the reproduction chain.
rw
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See
http://www.jrsaudio.se/dbtoncdplayers.htm
This is a test which we made on request to show audible difference between CD players, discussion started at Audioreview a few years ago. One person from Audioreview was invited from the US and should have participated in the test, but he did not show up. John Stalberg is no longer working at the Studio.
It is not a perfect test, but with all blind numerous blind tests with positive outcome made I would say that the data is pretty solid.
This is for CD players and many other tests have been made with positive outcome. Many tests are made also for power amps. In a later test, the Halcro dm58 showed to be non-transparent using the ordinary inputs of the amp. The NAD208 is transparent up to 250W. The Rotel RB1080/1090 has also been shown to be transparent.
For cables, there have been no positive outcome (i.e. difference) as long as the cables are reasonably constructed. For poor cables with "built-in" filters, that might be another story, but such cables are not interesting for the Swedish Audio Technical Society.
Thomas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas_A
See
http://www.jrsaudio.se/dbtoncdplayers.htm
This is a test which we made on request to show audible difference between CD players, discussion started at Audioreview a few years ago. One person from Audioreview was invited from the US and should have participated in the test, but he did not show up. John Stalberg is no longer working at the Studio.
It is not a perfect test, but with all blind numerous blind tests with positive outcome made I would say that the data is pretty solid.
This is for CD players and many other tests have been made with positive outcome. Many tests are made also for power amps. In a later test, the Halcro dm58 showed to be non-transparent using the ordinary inputs of the amp. The NAD208 is transparent up to 250W. The Rotel RB1080/1090 has also been shown to be transparent.
For cables, there have been no positive outcome (i.e. difference) as long as the cables are reasonably constructed. For poor cables with "built-in" filters, that might be another story, but such cables are not interesting for the Swedish Audio Technical Society.
Thomas
Very interesting article and unlike most reports here, actually spoke of test procedure and most of the equipment used. I do have a couple of questions. Speaking of wire, what interconnects and speaker wire was used? I don't want to pick on listener 1, but was he familiar with the "drum recording" prior to the test? I have a very nice Sheffield direct to disk drum recording, but I confess my sensitivity to small differences is better revealed with more complex material having voice or symphonic instruments. Were any other recordings used? I guess since two folks were 100% accurate, there was no need to with this CDP audibility test.
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
Everytime you sit on your fence you get shot at from both sides. Each side figures you are really on the other side. You make statements which you think will provoke discussion and it only gets people angry at you. I'd have thought that by now you would have figured that out. Generally, in a war, neutrals have a tendency to duck a lot. It's their way of surviving.
"You make statements which you think will provoke discussion and it only gets people angry at you. I'd have thought that by now you would have figured that out."
Just like everyone else, I make statements that describe my position. If people get angry at me, that's their problem. Anger is not healthy.
That's what I've figured out.
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Since I was the person with two errors, I would say that I listened so much that I got tired of the sound. It is not easy to conduct an A-B test, I would have preferred an ABX test so that I could have compared the sound more easily. The faulty errors could have been due to mistakes.
I was neither familiar with the equipment, the drum recording or the sound of the CD player before the test. The other two persons work at this studio, and they have this CD player there as a transport for a DAC. So they have listened much more to this CD player than me.
The cables in the system is 4x.15 mm2 EKK solid core copper, I believe. The interconnects are RG62 or similar low-capacitance cable.
Speaking of difference, numerous tests have been made which showed that very sharp transients (like hitting on the "border" of the drum) is very revealing. Also electronic music with low bass content (≈10 Hz).
We tested several music CDs before we chose the specific drum section. The very big task before every test is to listen and find the part which is most revealing. Complex music should be "music difficult to reproduce by the equipment" which often turns out to be very dynamic, sharp transients and low bass content.
Thomas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas_A
Since I was the person with two errors, I would say that I listened so much that I got tired of the sound.
:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas_A
I was neither familiar with the equipment, the drum recording or the sound of the CD player before the test.
You might want to try some familiar material next time. Music that you know well enough to play back in your head.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas_A
Speaking of difference, numerous tests have been made which showed that very sharp transients (like hitting on the "border" of the drum) is very revealing.
I guess it depends upon what music you favor. I, too, would get bored if all I heard repetitively was someone whacking a rim shot. Now I understand your first answer! I would much rather hear the intonation of a female voice or the complex harmonic structure of stringed or woodwind instruments. To hear the instruments reproduced in their space. As for electronic music, there are a couple of pieces I use. The intro to "Dido's" Honestly Ok band on the No Angel album contains a tasty little synthesized water droplet sound starting at 34 seconds repeating about a dozen times every two or three seconds. Or on the Oxygene 8 cut of Jean-Michel Jarre's Oxygene 7-13 album, there is a percussive "clicking" conterpart to the main melody that contains a rather complex envelope.
rw
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Comparing it to most other systems, the Ino Audio system is very revealing. Both recording engineers and those music artists that have been working in this teaching studio "Studio Blue" claim it is one of the better sounding studios in the world. So I would say it's a top-notch system. Still, no audible difference between cables have been reported. So, who would I trust? Blind tests made in top-notch systems with very experienced listeners? Or casual reports presented on internet forums made with no internal/external controls, not blinded, no statistics? For me the answer is very easy.
http://www.studioblue.se/
It's in Swedish, unfortunately.
T
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas_A
So, who would I trust? Blind tests made in top-notch systems with very experienced listeners? Or casual reports presented on internet forums made with no internal/external controls, not blinded, no statistics? For me the answer is very easy.
If the assertions were only made by individuals on internet forums, then I would agree with you. I do trust (and know some of) the audio press and the hearing of manufacturers of components who claim their product sounds more lifelike using other (completely unrelated) company's better cables. They have nothing to prove. Finally, I trust my own hearing in A/B testing. You might match the hearing acuity of your fellow listeners 2 & 3 if you were to use familiar systems and musical content.
I will agree, however, that I hear more differences among interconnects than speaker cables and the latter are likely far more system dependent. My vacuum tube power amp driving electrostatic speakers situaion is particularly challenging.
rw
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Absolutely, positively YES!...
...I've tried not using wires and the results were quite disappointing...
Question: Anybody know the difference between wire and cable?
Didn't think so...
A local stereo/HT retailer/system installer, with many locations and many years in business, no longer sells Tara et al...they sell and use Monster exclusively...they used to sell 'em...seems curious to me...
Contrary to the popular myth propagated by some re: the quality level of any given system required to realize any benefit from use of the more esoteric wiring, Monster(in it's literature) says "...smaller speakers and lower power amplifiers..." will see significant improvement...hmmm...curiouser and curiouser...
"...110%..."? Not much diff, statistically...and how did you arrive at this number? Slightly wider sound stage? Ten percent more "inner details"? Grand piano sound like it had 8.8 more keys? Could be mood, volume levels, that extra glass of wine...the girlfriend? Have you ever been told what the other person thought you wanted to hear?
jimHJJ(...more importantly, have you ever told yourself what you wanted to hear?...)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas_A
See
http://www.jrsaudio.se/dbtoncdplayers.htm
This is a test which we made on request to show audible difference between CD players, discussion started at Audioreview a few years ago. One person from Audioreview was invited from the US and should have participated in the test, but he did not show up. John Stalberg is no longer working at the Studio.
It is not a perfect test, but with all blind numerous blind tests with positive outcome made I would say that the data is pretty solid.
This is for CD players and many other tests have been made with positive outcome. Many tests are made also for power amps. In a later test, the Halcro dm58 showed to be non-transparent using the ordinary inputs of the amp. The NAD208 is transparent up to 250W. The Rotel RB1080/1090 has also been shown to be transparent.
For cables, there have been no positive outcome (i.e. difference) as long as the cables are reasonably constructed. For poor cables with "built-in" filters, that might be another story, but such cables are not interesting for the Swedish Audio Technical Society.
Thomas
Hi Fi CHoice magazines reviews and has been reviewing for over a decade in a panel of listeners blind and levels matched. It is not a DBT because differences are assumed so the panelists simply sit and review what they like and or dislike about componant A, B, C, D E etc.
Interestingly Hi-Fi Choice has had owners from companies who were members of the panel and sometimes they didn't even choose their own product as best in the shootouts. Interestingly they manage to rate certain products(CD players cables etc) a 2 star versus others at 5 stars - and they measure the equipment as well. They even comment that some DACs because of their output give them a big advantage in a non level matched situation so be careful.
Fact = any manufacturer CAN deliberately alter the sound of a cable or cd player to sound different than the rest -- since that is so they can also make it sound more pleasing to the ear(or some people's ears). It is in their best interest to make it sound different so they can stand apart from the rest. Once this is established if a test cannot tell a difference you need another test.
Cable claims I'm wary of because the mark-up is totally ridiculous. A dealer here makes more profit on a $60.00 cable than a $600.00 Television - which would you rather sell. Cables take up less space in the store. And the difference at best is going to generally be subtle - if it is Night and Day then the cable has altered the frequency to such a degree it would probably be best avoided.
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"Fact = any manufacturer CAN deliberately alter the sound of a cable or cd player to sound different than the rest -- since that is so they can also make it sound more pleasing to the ear(or some people's ears). It is in their best interest to make it sound different so they can stand apart from the rest. Once this is established if a test cannot tell a difference you need another test."
Manufacturers can change the resistance, capacitance, and inductance per unit length of a cable by changing its geometry and materials of construction. If this has any effect at all on the sound of the equipment it is connected to, that effect is unpredictable and uncontrollable. That is because it depends on the paramaters of the equipment so it is conceivable although not necessarily proven that a particular cable would affect the sound of one sound system one way and another differently or not at all. And it would obtain this effect by changing the overall frequency response. This method if it works at all is without doubt, the dumbest way to make such a change. It is ineffecient, unpredictable, uncontrollable, and very expensive IF it even works. Frequency response that deviates from "flat" is what is termed linear distortion and is correctable and controllable predictably and inexpensively by using equalization. Every professional sound engineer knows this, uses it as one of his primary tools in his bag of tricks, and you will therefore rarely if ever find a professionally installed sound system which does not incorporate at least one equalizer. You say you don't like equalization because it creates distortion? Argue with the guy who built the mixing board your precious vinyl recordings were made on, the guy who built the recording studio, and the guy who tweaked the knobs and dials on that console to get you the sound you like so much. You can also argue with the guy who invented the LP and found that if he didn't equalize the signal being fed to the cutting head, he could never get the signal on the record. Of course it had to be equalized on playback and that's in your preamplifier. Let's not forget about the guy who builds tape recorders including the ones the recording was made on and the one it was mixed down on. Both used massive equalization on both recording and playback to get the signal on the tape (except for those rare direct to disc recordings which could not be edited at all.) And then there's DOLBY. For those who cringe at the very thought of equalization, this is a nightmare. Professional Dolby "A" has four different bands of equalization and not only that, they are not static like the others, they are dynamic. The degree of equalization depends on the level of the signal going on to the tape and coming off off it changing from instant to instant. Heaven help you if it was not properly calibrated.
Can't use an equalizer because you can't adjust it? Too bad. I've found calibrated microphones and spectrum analyzers that are normally supplied for home systems useless for this purpose. It takes a musically trained and acute ear and a lot of patience to get it to sound close to flat. But that should be no problem for people who can hear the difference between one cable and another and take the time and trouble to listen to so many of them to pick out just the right one for their sound system. Of course if you can't successfully adjust an equalizer, maybe your hearing or your acoustic memory isn't quite as good as you think it is.
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Skeptic: Good Points
A clear and lucid post. There is too much emphasis placed on cables in this "cable war". There are many other aspects in sound recreation far more important than mere cables. I would think one would want to recreate at home that which has been created in the studio and at the mastering console. Cables??? Just room acoustics alone will be more important to sound than....cables. Enuf.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
If the assertions were only made by individuals on internet forums, then I would agree with you. I do trust (and know some of) the audio press and the hearing of manufacturers of components who claim their product sounds more lifelike using other (completely unrelated) company's better cables. They have nothing to prove. Finally, I trust my own hearing in A/B testing. You might match the hearing acuity of your fellow listeners 2 & 3 if you were to use familiar systems and musical content.
I will agree, however, that I hear more differences among interconnects than speaker cables and the latter are likely far more system dependent. My vacuum tube power amp driving electrostatic speakers situaion is particularly challenging.
rw
Still it remains to be proven. For years there have been attempts to get evidence of audible difference between cables of reasonable construction. There are claims and challenges. There is one standing challenge since >10 years from the Swedish Audio Technical Society to the Audio press. They may choose time, equpiment, place length, fast/slow switching, but tests need to be double blind. No one has accepted. There are challenges with price sums around. No one has tried, or at least none that I've heard about. Another blind test including people that "percieved" cable difference made a test a few years ago. They chose time, equipment and place for the test. A very expensive Transparent speaker cable against Supra Ply. The test result was exactly 50% correct guesses = random. Another report was published in the former Swedish "Electronics World". Four different systems and I believe six different cables. Result was the same as random choice. A third test was quite recently conducted here (in Swedish though):
http://www.fivechannels.com/artiklar/kabeltest.htm
Kimber vs Harmonic Tech: 2/7 and 3/7 correct.
Nordost vs Supra: 3/7
Kimber vs Nordost: 7/7
Noname vs Kimber 3/7 and 2/7
EKK vs Kimber: 5/7 and 3/7
(Total was 28/56=50%.) One 7/7 result was obtained, but this is rather easy to get in a series of attempts.
The Tag McLaren test showed no difference.
Several previous tests have been made: I've tested Supra Ply against Linn K20 (two completely different geometries). Very very slight roll of at 20 kHz of K20. No audible difference.
I've conducted blind tests between CD players at home: Two listernes, me included, could hear a slight difference blindly. This was caused most probably by the 0.4 dB difference in absolute level so it is not valid. I made similar tests with DACs at another location, level matched, 2 listeners. We gave up after a couple of hours. No difference. Although differences CAN be heard between some CD players, it is not easy, and many are so similar that it would require special test signal to hear a difference.
In addition, many more blind tests have been done during the 25 years of cable debate.
These are a few of the reasons to why I and many others are very sceptical to any claims, including yours, of audible difference. First, I have seen no data, and if there is data, was there anyone on the "objective side" that can confirm your test results? When we conducted the CD player test at the Studio, there was one sceptical person from Audioreview invited (although he did not show up for some reason). If you really want to claim an audible difference, why not conduct a proper test and include controls, if it is easy to show it?
T
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas_A
I've conducted blind tests between CD players at home: Two listernes, me included, could hear a slight difference blindly. This was caused most probably by the 0.4 dB difference in absolute level so it is not valid. I made similar tests with DACs at another location, level matched, 2 listeners. We gave up after a couple of hours. No difference. Although differences CAN be heard between some CD players, it is not easy, and many are so similar that it would require special test signal to hear a difference.T
Thomas,
I've done exhaustive (enough for me!) testing on CD players, single blind as DBT is too difficult to do and SBT is very simple. There was one instance where there were discernible differences in CDP's. Using my reference Sony XA20-ES player and my old CD recorder, the Pioneer PDR-509, myself and a cohort noticed repeatable sonic differences but only when listening through Sennheiser HD600 headphones through the units respective headphone jacks. Are there qualitative differences among these jacks or do you think the players actually sound different?
On the flip side, I also tested some cheap CD players and some expensive ones against my at-the-time reference Theta transport/Dac combo. Nobody heard any difference. I have retained my Sony which at the time was being used in a second system because it has the finest transport I've ever used. It can navigate CD's that cause other players fits. The ability to actually play a CD without skipping or getting stuck is the best sonic difference I've experienced! My cable tests revealed no differences except for the poor Straight Wire Virtuoso which was tested as defective by the manufacturer after the test.
Alas, all is not well in Objective Town. Amplification plays a significant part in the sound of my system. Preamps in particular can have identical specs and sound quite different. Ditto phono stages and all parts of the LP chain as well as speakers. However, my significant and that of others may differ. I'd say all but about 10% (arbitrary number, of course) of the final sound comes from speakers, source software and room acoustics and not necessarily in that order. But that 10% is the difference between great sound and stunning, occasionally live, sound.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
Same tired old "we can't tell the difference with the POS equipment we're using" argument. None of you guys has EVER provided test results using anything better than mid-fi gear.
rw
Ah, but you have the burden to demonstrate that your system makes a difference in detectng ability. Your evidence can be found under which rock? It isn't anywhere, and you are just daydreaming as much as the next golden ear, regardless of your estats or 30 years of experience that is unreliable at best. So, in essence, you are the stuck needle in the groove with no evidence to support your wild claims.
When?
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[QUOTE=nusiclover] On another side,
If speaker cables Made No difference, then there would cease to be sooo many succesful speaker cable companys out there. You can use the "marketing" card for so long, but then it becomes mute, because neither I (captain frugal himself) nor a thousand other paying customers would simply succumb to expert marketeering unless they put "magic potion" in our cables so that when i touched them we would feel euphorically happy :).
Come on, give it a rest, no cable companys are drugging us to HAVE to like their cables better. The simple truth is that, well, there are audible differences. So sorry if your ears can not dissiminate between the two. But, my ears work damn fine.
QUOTE]
Wrong, wrong, wrong. I suppose the psychics can really tell your future, talk to the dead. Holistic healing does heal people. John Edwards does talk to the dead, right.
After all, if they are not for real, why do so many people continue to run after these sharlatans.
No, marketing is everything but human nature being gullible is a tremendous asset of marketeers.
You have a lot to learn about human nature, perception, snake oil salesmen.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
The difference is that I qualify my comments with respect to the system involved. You make unsupported blanket claims. Which is indeed valid for the majority of folks asking what cable they should use with their Onkyo receiver.
rw
You can qualify you statement with anything you like. You still don't have supporting evidence, just speculations, guesses, daydreams. But, some are very happy with dreams. Enjoy.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pctower
Is there anyone out there who just buys things because of the enjoyment he derives from his purchases (or lack thereof) and doesn't need every other human being to act and believe exactly as he does?
Oh, there are. Few post here though :) Most have to make some sort of testable claims though.
Now only if they followed your suggestion, this place would be dead, nothing to comment on :D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGA
FACT = DBTs are not the answer in psychological testing.
Thus you better be on the fence.
You are reading the wrong books. Get better instructors.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMK
Thomas,
I've done exhaustive (enough for me!) testing on CD players, single blind as DBT is too difficult to do and SBT is very simple. There was one instance where there were discernible differences in CDP's. Using my reference Sony XA20-ES player and my old CD recorder, the Pioneer PDR-509, myself and a cohort noticed repeatable sonic differences but only when listening through Sennheiser HD600 headphones through the units respective headphone jacks. Are there qualitative differences among these jacks or do you think the players actually sound different?
On the flip side, I also tested some cheap CD players and some expensive ones against my at-the-time reference Theta transport/Dac combo. Nobody heard any difference. I have retained my Sony which at the time was being used in a second system because it has the finest transport I've ever used. It can navigate CD's that cause other players fits. The ability to actually play a CD without skipping or getting stuck is the best sonic difference I've experienced! My cable tests revealed no differences except for the poor Straight Wire Virtuoso which was tested as defective by the manufacturer after the test.
Alas, all is not well in Objective Town. Amplification plays a significant part in the sound of my system. Preamps in particular can have identical specs and sound quite different. Ditto phono stages and all parts of the LP chain as well as speakers. However, my significant and that of others may differ. I'd say all but about 10% (arbitrary number, of course) of the final sound comes from speakers, source software and room acoustics and not necessarily in that order. But that 10% is the difference between great sound and stunning, occasionally live, sound.
There are some differences between some CD players. Headphone use takes away some of the confusion caused by room reflections and are phase correct, in contrast to a majority of the speakers on the market. There could also be some difference in the headphone output. There is one report also of a Teac player which can be heard different with and without the display on/off, but so far only using pink noise. Music was not possible.
Now in a highend system like the Studio, signals down to 10 Hz or lower are easily percieved at high SPL as vibrations in the body. Some persons are very sensitive to changes in the vibration in the body, so an amp with a -3 dB point at 6-8 Hz may be percived as different. This is quite extreme and would not be percieved in most systems used at home.
RIAA amps may be quite different and also provide different loads for the cartridge and sound different. For pre-amps, I guess there could be channel imbalance differences due to pot quality. Otherwise, transparent pre-amps are quite easy to construct.
T
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas_A
For pre-amps, I guess there could be channel imbalance differences due to pot quality. Otherwise, transparent pre-amps are quite easy to construct.
Please define "transparent" as you use the term. In a previous post, you indicated that a particular Rotel amp was likewise transparent.
rw
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Per definition, there is no way to be 100% sure of transparency due to the rules of Science. It's an approximation which covers all listening tests made with a certain amount of people at a specific time-point with the corresponding accesory equipment. If one chooses the best conditions possible and the most critical listeners and make several tests with very demanind music and signals, it is still valid for these situations only. It is up to other listeners or by repeating the tests using other equipment or music samples to either confirm or disprove the hypothesis that the component is "audibly transparent", of course using scientific methods.
Now to the word "transparent".
Definition of transparent is when the signal pass through a component without any audible distortion, i.e. there is no audible difference of the signal before and after it has passed a component. The test method used by Swedish Audio Technical Socieity is called F/E test or "before/after" test , which are more sensitive than standard DBT of A-B listening tests.
One of the articles at the Sonic Design home page describes this method for power amps, but it can be applied for pre-amps too.
http://www.sonicdesign.se/amptest.htm
http://www.sonicdesign.se/articles.htm
CD players are more tricky, but there are methods around that. For example the analogue signal can be converted to digital first by an A/D converter and then back to analogue with and D/A converter. By making a test with the original signal, and that passing the conversion, one can try to determine whether the signal is audible different. Since errors in conversion are in a majority of cases additive, one could then say, if there are no audible differences of the before/after signal, that the D/A converter is transparent. If there is a specific error in the A/D conversion that is exactly inverted in the D/A converter then one could say that the this specific test will fail. But a perfect inversion of an error is not very probable, and to avoid any doubts different combinations of A/Ds and D/As need to be tested. When there is a transparent D/A (it can take a year or so to do all the tests), there is a possibility to use that a reference for further testing of other CD players.
T
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"Anger is not healthy."
That's true but if it leads to brick throwing, it is usually not as unhealthy for the throwER as for the throwEE (depending on aim---and allowing for windage.)
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When I want to buy something pleasant to look at, I go to an art Gallery.
When I want to buy something to wire up my speakers with, I go to Home Depot.
I've never thought of wire as art. But then that's just me.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas_A
Per definition, there is no way to be 100% sure of transparency due to the rules of Science.
Agreed. That is why I use high quality passive attenuators between my CDP and power amps. Although my Audio Research preamp is a good unit, I can hear the difference when I remove it from the signal path altogether. Fortunately, I do not need the added 12 of gain it provides. I use the preamp solely for vinyl playback.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas_A
Definition of transparent is when the signal pass through a component without any audible distortion, i.e. there is no audible difference of the signal before and after it has passed a component. The test method used by Swedish Audio Technical Socieity is called F/E test or "before/after" test , which are more sensitive than standard DBT of A-B listening tests.
I read your linked amp test procedure. You piggy-back one amp into another via some compensation circuitry with a bypass switch and make the determination from that. How do you determine the transparency of the "regular" amp first? Did the author of the test consider the fact that the "regular" amp along with the associated compensation circuitry and extra wiring itself is masking differences that may be evident only if one were to compare only the DUT?
rw
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