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  1. #1
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    Advice on this Board

    Coming to this board to inquire about experiences others have had with a particular cable or cables, is like going to a board dedicated to sports cars where every visitor is advised to buy a Honda Civic Sedan.

  2. #2
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Some might see it as the audio equivalent of http://www.snopes.com

  3. #3
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    Coming to this board to inquire about experiences others have had with a particular cable or cables, is like going to a board dedicated to sports cars where every visitor is advised to buy a Honda Civic Sedan.
    Most sports cars actually provide higher performance than a Honda Civic.
    "You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers."

  4. #4
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockwell
    Most sports cars actually provide higher performance than a Honda Civic.
    Stock Civics sure, but have you ever seen what some of these kids do to these now?
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
    PS Audio Classic 250. 500wpc into 4 ohms.
    PS Audio 4.5 preamp,
    Marantz 6170 TT Shure M97e cart.
    Arcam Alpha 9 CD.- 24 bit dCS Ring DAC.
    Magnepan 3.6r speakers Oak/black,

  5. #5
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    I'll always give you advice, if I can.

    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    Coming to this board to inquire about experiences others have had with a particular cable or cables, is like going to a board dedicated to sports cars where every visitor is advised to buy a Honda Civic Sedan.
    I DO believe in the difference cables can make to the sound of a system!
    Here however, it seems it's not about giving advice as much as it is in trying to convert believer into non believers or the other way around. I say screw them, and let your ears be the judge. Also, only listen to those who have advice, either way, based on their personal experience, and not based on some study they read. As if that makes them knowledgeable!

  6. #6
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    Here is some advice, NORDOST!!! nt.

    .......

  7. #7
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    It's still a focking Honda Civic!!! nt

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffcin
    Stock Civics sure, but have you ever seen what some of these kids do to these now?
    .......

  8. #8
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    A desparate plea for attention, I think. It screams: "Look at me, my owner feels inadequate!"

    I'm always amused when I see a $10K piece of junk turned into a $30K piece of junk. I would have used that money to buy a 3 series, but that's just me.
    "You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers."

  9. #9
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bturk667
    I DO believe in the difference cables can make to the sound of a system!
    We're allowed to have our own beliefs. We cannot, however, expect that everyone share them here. If we did, then this would not be an open forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by bturk667
    Here however, it seems it's not about giving advice as much as it is in trying to convert believer into non believers or the other way around.
    Or, it may that you simply don't agree with those that don't agree with your beliefs. Like it or not, not everyone is a "believer" here. You make it seem like a cult with this "believer" stuff.

    Those questioning cables have a right to hear both sides of a story. This is a cable forum where most of what's discussed here is of a scientific nature, where statements can be either proven or disproven.

    If you're implying this is a faith based issue, then er're talking cult again.

    It's not like one is going into a church, where a certian belief is assumed, and decrying the Pope as a fraud and charlatin, although it IS seen like that on at least one other forum I can think of where cable worship DOES take on a cult relationship... but not here. Disagreement is allowed here.

    Quote Originally Posted by bturk667
    II say screw them, and let your ears be the judge.
    True, but one must be careful that one THINKS they are hearing is actually what one is ACTUALLY hearing. The ears are only one link in the chain. The human mind is easily duped and that's fhe final step in he hearing process.

    Witness the tale of these poor, deluded "golden eared audiiophiles" who heard exactly what they were told to expect to hear when in reality, nothing of the kind was physically possible.

    http://www.visi.com/~asm/Newsletters/asm_feb_97.PDF

    This effect is no revelation to marketing departments. What price must one pay to fool themselves into feeling they are getting something of value?

    This kind of thing does shake the faith of hard core "believers" and angers them beyond belief but hey, it's a fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by bturk667
    Also, only listen to those who have advice, either way, based on their personal experience, and not based on some study they read. As if that makes them knowledgeable!
    By following this logic, only females that have given birth are qualified to be Gynecologists. Likewise, all Oncologists must have terminal cancer. Etc...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    Coming to this board to inquire about experiences others have had with a particular cable or cables, is like going to a board dedicated to sports cars where every visitor is advised to buy a Honda Civic Sedan.
    For autos of all types we have tons of specifications and measured data from manufacturers and independent test sources including such diverse testers as Car and Driver magazine, Consumer Reports magazine and the US government (EPA mileage and crash testing.) We also have an understanding of what their meaning and significance is. This allows us to have a good idea of how these products will perform against our needs, in light of their cost, and in light of the legal restrictions for operating them. It does no good to have a car that has a top speed of 140 mph if the legal limit is 65 unless you are reckless or just plain stupid. Even a Honda Civic has a top speed in excess of 65. If the requirement for operating a car is to drive to the supermarket, not only is the added power and handling of the sports car unusable, its small size means you can carry even less groceries than the Civic. We have no comparable information or way to put it in context for audio cables. As an experienced attorney, you knew that your analogy was bogus from the start. Did you think it would go unchallenged?

  11. #11
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    If the requirement for operating a car is to drive to the supermarket, not only is the added power and handling of the sports car unusable, its small size means you can carry even less groceries than the Civic.
    Now I understand your perspective on cables. It has nothing to do with the ultimate performance of cables. It has nothing to do with the audible effects of the best cables on the highest resolution systems with trained listeners on familiar musical content. It is simply what Joe Sixpack can hear (or not hear) while playing his favorite Brittany cut.



    rw

  12. #12
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Now I understand your perspective on cables. It has nothing to do with the ultimate performance of cables. It has nothing to do with the audible effects of the best cables on the highest resolution systems with trained listeners on familiar musical content. It is simply what Joe Sixpack can hear (or not hear) while playing his favorite Brittany cut.



    rw

    So just what IS high resolution? How is it measured and quantified? Why is it that audiophiles cannot seem to agree on this concept? (Especially when you get the tube vs SS guys in the same room.)

    You also make assumptions that you're test scenario is exclusive in it's ability to find audible differences.

    What makes you think that "Joe Sxpack's" hearing is any more deficient than a self-professed golden-ear?

    -Bruce

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    As an experienced attorney, you knew that your analogy was bogus from the start. Did you think it would go unchallenged?
    Not at all; I'm glad it was. Focusing on the problems with an analogy, in my opinion, can lead to better clarity and understanding. Seems like that may have occured here and if it did then I accomplished my purpose.

  14. #14
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    So just what IS high resolution? How is it measured and quantified? Why is it that audiophiles cannot seem to agree on this concept? (Especially when you get the tube vs SS guys in the same room.)

    You also make assumptions that you're test scenario is exclusive in it's ability to find audible differences.

    What makes you think that "Joe Sxpack's" hearing is any more deficient than a self-professed golden-ear? -Bruce
    Alll of those are good questions, Bruce. I count five, so I'll respond to them by number.

    1. This is a question with highly subjective answers. It certainly doesn't equate directly to investment because there is a lot of expensive gear available that doesn't sound good. I'll throw my dart against the wall and suggest that it is any system above your basic receiver with bookshelf speaker setup.

    2. Well, unfortunately the measurements we have today (which are better than in the past) still don't provide enough information to be truly relevant. Subtle diferences in cables aside (and they are subtle), even significant audible differences found in amplifiers for example don't easily correlate to published specifications.

    3. Well because most of us are lunatics! There are so many levels of performance attainment that it is difficult to draw lines between them. Another factor has to do with personal preferences. There are some who are bass freaks. Others like shimmering highs. My preferences have evolved over the years. I will happily give up the Nth degree of performance at the frequency extremes to get the midrange right.

    4. I'm not sure how I gave that impression, but it was unintended. I assert that any very good system with "regular" music listeners on familiar and challenging material will work. By challenging, I mean some aspect that contains some subtle or difficult passages that render hearing component differences easier.

    5. It is not my contention that there are folks who have inherently superior hearing abilities. I assert that anyone who has an interest in comparative listening with extensive listening experience on a high resolution system is able to resolve differences. The keys are:

    1. Interest
    2. Access
    3. Repetition

    Give Joe Sixpack HP's spectacular system for a month and he should be able to hear very fine nuances indeed !

    rw

  15. #15
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Alll of those are good questions, Bruce. I count five, so I'll respond to them by number.

    1. This is a question with highly subjective answers.
    My point exactly. It is an opinion without any basis for reliable comparison.

    2. Well, unfortunately the measurements we have today (which are better than in the past) still don't provide enough information to be truly relevant. Subtle diferences in cables aside (and they are subtle), even significant audible differences found in amplifiers for example don't easily correlate to published specifications.
    Published specifications are a minimum starting point required by the FTC as a guide for shopping comparison. Never said they were the end all and be all. There are lots and lots of tests my company does that are not published and the end user could care less about. For cables, there are no guidelines whatsoever.

    3. Well because most of us are lunatics! There are so many levels of performance attainment that it is difficult to draw lines between them. Another factor has to do with personal preferences. There are some who are bass freaks. Others like shimmering highs. My preferences have evolved over the years. I will happily give up the Nth degree of performance at the frequency extremes to get the midrange right.
    See where you're at? Personal preferences. No standard that can be universally applied, so how can there possibly be any level of performance stratification defined?

    4. I'm not sure how I gave that impression, but it was unintended. I assert that any very good system with "regular" music listeners on familiar and challenging material will work. By challenging, I mean some aspect that contains some subtle or difficult passages that render hearing component differences easier.

    5. It is not my contention that there are folks who have inherently superior hearing abilities. I assert that anyone who has an interest in comparative listening with extensive listening experience on a high resolution system is able to resolve differences. The keys are:

    1. Interest
    2. Access
    3. Repetition

    Give Joe Sixpack HP's spectacular system for a month and he should be able to hear very fine nuances indeed !

    rw
    Okay, but what IS high resolution? You haven't yet defined that in a reliably repeatable way as yet after all the above. If I remember, it started off as the name of someone's power amplifier.....marketing terms again, like high-current.

    -Bruce

  16. #16
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    Wrong!

    By following this logic, only females that have given birth are qualified to be Gynecologists. Likewise, all Oncologists must have terminal cancer. Etc...[/QUOT

    Only a women who has given birth can tell you what to expect! Why? Because she has experienced it, a male Gynecologist never has! He could only give the experience of others, for what that is worth!

    I have had 5 knee surgeries, two of which were major. Now who would rather listen to about what to expect in the way of pain and rehab. A doctor who has never had one or a person who has had five? I'd choose me. But you could choose the doctor. After all it is your choice.
    Remember, different isn't always better, but it is different.
    Keep things as simple as possible, but not too simple.
    Let your ears decide for you!

  17. #17
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bturk667
    Only a women who has given birth can tell you what to expect! Why? Because she has experienced it, a male Gynecologist never has! He could only give the experience of others, for what that is worth!.
    So, when your wife gives birth to your own flesh and blood, who would rather have deliver it? A male doctor who was trained in that field and has successfully delivered numerous other babies or a neighbor who has simply given birth to children?

    ..uhhh... I'll take the doctor, thank you.


    Quote Originally Posted by bturk667
    I have had 5 knee surgeries, two of which were major. Now who would rather listen to about what to expect in the way of pain and rehab. A doctor who has never had one or a person who has had five? I'd choose me. But you could choose the doctor. After all it is your choice.
    So, you're telling me that the doctor who did your knee surgery had five operations on his knee? ...or are you saying that because you've had knee surgery that you're qualified to preform knee surgery on others?

    (BTW, sorry about that knee. Hope all is well. I've got hand problems myself but, you know how it is in this forum...)

  18. #18
    JBL Whore Bobby Blacklight's Avatar
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    Well if you go to AA Cable Forum it's the other way round. Two very polorized boards. At least hear you can freely talk about them and have strong arguments on both sides and not be censored. So what do you think is better for the new guy. Being told it doesn't really make a diference or tell him it does and have him chasing ghosts. There is a lot that goes into this hobby that experienced guys take for granted. There are so many other more important and relevant issues like speaker placement and room acoustics?? Where would you have him start?? I think he would be better of here. Let him spend some times on basics rather than getting someone new all covered in "Snake Oil"

  19. #19
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bturk667
    I DO believe in the difference cables can make to the sound of a system!
    Here however, it seems it's not about giving advice as much as it is in trying to convert believer into non believers or the other way around. I say screw them, and let your ears be the judge. Also, only listen to those who have advice, either way, based on their personal experience, and not based on some study they read. As if that makes them knowledgeable!

    Not everything in life is about experience, especially when that experience is suspect. Now, if you will excuse me, I am late for a session with my psychic. Not to worry, she is very experienced...
    "You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers."

  20. #20
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    You still just don't get it

    Although 1000 feet of generic RG6 may not work well with high definition TV, 6 feet of it may work perfectly for the world's best audio system and in practical terms, indistinguishably from the best measured cable at any price. We have no way to know that because the people who are making and selling the most expensive ones haven't published any specifications or tests to prove one way or another what performace differences exist. Neither has anyone else. It's not that they can't. They just won't. So all we have are non scientific testimonials. That's how they sold snake oil cure all tonics in the traveling medicine shows 125 years ago before there was a legitimate pharmaceutical industry and an FDA to keep them honest. Do you ever wonder why?

  21. #21
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    We have no way to know that because the people who are making and selling the most expensive ones haven't published any specifications or tests to prove one way or another what performace differences exist.
    While I won't attempt to speak for the large number of manufacturers, I will speak for one prominent one that does provide such information. I cite this example because these are the best cables in my experience. Scroll to the bottom to find the specs.

    http://nordost.com/products/valhalla.html

    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    It's not that they can't. They just won't.
    I will suggest an alternative reason: They cannot afford to or at least it does not make economic sense. The market for all high end stereo equipment is relatively small and the cost of a proper DBT trial series would be considerable for small companies. What we need is a wealthy audiophile benefactor to foot the bill.

    rw

  22. #22
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    What do you smoke?

    .....
    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    So, when your wife gives birth to your own flesh and blood, who would rather have deliver it? A male doctor who was trained in that field and has successfully delivered numerous other babies or a neighbor who has simply given birth to children?

    ..uhhh... I'll take the doctor, thank you.

    What I wrote was "Also, only listen to those who have advice, either way, based on their personal experience, and not on some study they read."
    So what experience does a male doctor have about giving birth? NONE, why, because they can't!


    So, you're telling me that the doctor who did your knee surgery had five operations on his knee? ...or are you saying that because you've had knee surgery that you're qualified to preform knee surgery on others?

    What experience does a doctor have about pain and rehab if he never had a knee surgery? NONE, why, because he never had one! I never raised the question an I more qualified to do the surgery, you did, but thanks!

    (BTW, sorry about that knee. Hope all is well. I've got hand problems myself but, you know how it is in this forum...)
    Remember, different isn't always better, but it is different.
    Keep things as simple as possible, but not too simple.
    Let your ears decide for you!

  23. #23
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Okay, but what IS high resolution? You haven't yet defined that in a reliably repeatable way as yet after all the above.-Bruce
    High resolution audio components are those that bring the listener closer to the musical truth. Although my musical tastes are varied and include a fair mix of popular synthesized, multitracked, and otherwise processed recordings, they must be excluded from such an evaluation because there is no musical truth to them. Instead, one must rely on unamplifed music - of most any genre, be it classical, jazz, blue grass, choral, etc. While there are certainly differences in the various musical halls, seating positions, etc., an oboe will nevertheless always sound like an oboe. A piano will always sound like a piano.

    Of my two systems, my main one can, using the best recordings, begin to truly replicate the sound of a piano. It does so in timbre, image height and width, and in level. I do have some ready reference in this matter as my wife frequently plays her baby grand in the living room. My modest garage system, however, using Large Advents driven by a NAD integrated (using 12 gauge speaker wire and generic cables) never really sounds like a piano. Instead, it sounds like a good hi-fi. It is incapable of creating a convincing artifice of the musical event.

    I know that such subjective assertions are not easily reduced to a set of numbers. I would like nothing more than to find a set of numbers that actually is of value.

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 01-05-2004 at 03:47 PM.

  24. #24
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    Thumbs down

    Good to see that this board has changed in format (for the worse) but the audio dupes are still the same.

    E-stat seems to be the latest of a long line of people who think words and strong beliefs are sufficient to make their point. But, alas, these people simply don't get it. They don't get scientific method, maybe they don't even get logic. Making the same mistatements, spreading the same misinformation, over and over really doesn't change the basic facts:

    1. Scientists and engineers know everything there is to know about the characteristics of electrical signals AND sound waves. These things were completely specified long ago and we can analize them to our heart's content. Two signals can be perfectly compared and their differences quantified. Given this and the fact that the limits of human perception have also be studied long ago, we can say that typical cable differences are below the ability of humans to distinguish. We can compare any input signal to the output and see how "wrong" the output is (duh, it is called distortion). There is nothing else to consider. The distortion added by cables is laughably small.

    Don't believe the eggheads? Too lazy to seek out and read real information about audio and electronics? Unable to come to grips with your illustions? No problem, we can still resolve this issue. The proof is in the tasting, er, I mean hearing is in the listening. We can simply TEST and see if people can hear cable differences! Guess what?

    2. Nobody has demonstrated they can hear cable difference (in typical audio systems and situations). Not even the "trained" listeners with their own "high resolution" systems. Until at least one of them DEMONSTRATES (instead of just saying) that they can hear "huge improvements" or can better appreciate "the truth" in the music then we would be quite gullible in addition to illogical to believe them.

    Some of the people of this forum are spitting into the wind of the audio "biz", high end dogma, and faulty belief systems. Given that many audio "professionals" don't want to kill the golden goose, I'm glad somebody is attempting to bring some rationality to the hobby.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    Some might see it as the audio equivalent of http://www.snopes.com

    Good one
    mtrycrafts

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