AC cables

[jneutron]

Settle down, mate!
I'm glad that new york lets you run a motor.

I am quite settled down, thank you..
Hey, they don't know how I drive...he he.

You might want to reexamine your point on voltage. The potential difference between two points IS the difference in electron charge.

I have one capacitor here, 10 uf. Charged to 100 volts.

I have another one, 1 farad, charged to 100 volts..

They have different charges, but yet they have the same voltage. When both are referred to ground, both have the same potential, but yet different charge.

That is inconsistent with your statement..

As you agreed, the cable WOULD act as first order.
Designing filters is part of my living, so your not going to impress me buddy!

It is not a matter of impressing anyone. In point of fact, it was you who stated:

"I am a QUALIFIED electronic engineer with many years experience in the audio field

But yet, you mixed up charge and potential..

I'm glad you design filters..so, what is the group delay for an L-R lowpass with an 8 ohm load, 3dB down at 100Khz?

And, more importantly, can you explain the physics behind WHY that group delay asymptotically approaches a non zero number as frequency drops toward DC? You know, the 1/2 LI² vs 1/2 CV² thingy?

Do you know what ITD and IID are? And, what the differential sensitivities for humans to those parameters are?

You being a "qualified" engineer does not impress me..nor does your designing filters for a living..you would be suprised to learn what some people who peruse these forums do for a living..and the level of physics and EE of some of them.

I'd be more impressed with reasonable dialogue, not struttin your degree about.

Cheers, John

[E-Stat]

Have you read the comments on speaker cables from one of the most respected people in the business (GDS). After all, his comments are available on this site.

Would you be so kind as to reference those comments? User GDS who registered in 2002 has never posted.

rw

[buffle]

Would you be so kind as to reference those comments? User GDS who registered in 2002 has never posted.

rw

Hi Estat!

The article was posted by forum member Chris under 'cable budget guide'. It is and exerpt from Gene's article at audioholics.com. I had to google 'snake oil audioreview' to find it again.

Thanks,
Buffle

[buffle]

I am quite settled down, thank you..
Hey, they don't know how I drive...he he.


I have one capacitor here, 10 uf. Charged to 100 volts.

I have another one, 1 farad, charged to 100 volts..

They have different charges, but yet they have the same voltage. When both are referred to ground, both have the same potential, but yet different charge.

That is inconsistent with your statement..


It is not a matter of impressing anyone. In point of fact, it was you who stated:

But yet, you mixed up charge and potential..

I'm glad you design filters..so, what is the group delay for an L-R lowpass with an 8 ohm load, 3dB down at 100Khz?

And, more importantly, can you explain the physics behind WHY that group delay asymptotically approaches a non zero number as frequency drops toward DC? You know, the 1/2 LI² vs 1/2 CV² thingy?

Do you know what ITD and IID are? And, what the differential sensitivities for humans to those parameters are?

You being a "qualified" engineer does not impress me..nor does your designing filters for a living..you would be suprised to learn what some people who peruse these forums do for a living..and the level of physics and EE of some of them.

I'd be more impressed with reasonable dialogue, not struttin your degree about.

Cheers, John

Yeah, sorry John, you are right about the voltage bit! I should have been more accurate in my statement.

There does seem to be a strong opinion on the topic of speaker cables, and that's enough for me to try a few more cables. If I do hear a difference then I certainly won't be shy in admitting I was wrong. If they improve my system, then I'll be thankfull. I just seriously doubt they will....

[E-Stat]

I have read a number of his articles. His CV states that:

Gene is passionate about educating the masses of the importance of proper system set-up, room acoustics and avoidance of exotic cables which can do more harm than good.

I guess I'm a lost cause to the third goal. More harm than good?

rw

[JohnMichael]

Here we go again. Some audiophiles can not hear any difference/benefits of different cables be they speaker, power or interconnect cables. Some of us truly can. If you can not then don't buy better cables use what comes in the box. For those of us that do we will change and try different cables until we have the best sound/synergy we can find. I can not convince you their is an improvement and you can not tell me I do not hear what I hear.

[ruadmaa]

Here we go again. Some audiophiles can not hear any difference/benefits of different cables be they speaker, power or interconnect cables. Some of us truly can. If you can not then don't buy better cables use what comes in the box. For those of us that do we will change and try different cables until we have the best sound/synergy we can find. I can not convince you their is an improvement and you can not tell me I do not hear what I hear.

Perhaps they are not trying to change your opinion at all. There are many new people that read this forum every day. It is they that will benefit from the information. Cables should not be purchased as tone altering devices. That's what the tone control is for on a receiver. If you are driving an amp only, simply buy an equalizer. An esoteric cable cannot add any frequencies whatsoever. A standard copper cable transmits all there is to transmit. An esoteric cable can only filter, not add. Personally, I won't argue this subject with you or anyone, it is pointless. It is simply hoped that new people to the hobby will save their money and use it where it will do some good and that is in better speakers or room conditioning.

[JohnMichael]

Perhaps they are not trying to change your opinion at all. There are many new people that read this forum every day. It is they that will benefit from the information. Cables should not be purchased as tone altering devices. That's what the tone control is for on a receiver. If you are driving an amp only, simply buy an equalizer. An esoteric cable cannot add any frequencies whatsoever. A standard copper cable transmits all there is to transmit. An esoteric cable can only filter, not add. Personally, I won't argue this subject with you or anyone, it is pointless. It is simply hoped that new people to the hobby will save their money and use it where it will do some good and that is in better speakers or room conditioning.

I needed to respond to your comments. I hope new people will read all responses and opinions. First I would like to preface by saying my experiences are with my two channel system and I listen in the nearfield. I would not say my cables are esoteric or very expensive but I have a mixture of solid core and stranded cables and they do change the sound of my system in small degrees. I am of course speaking of power, speaker and interconnect cables.

You advocate tone controls or an equalizer instead of buying a cable that might warm or brighten a system. Without getting into the electrical characteristics of wires and how they can interact differently with different components I think the proper selection of cable can greatly improve the sound of a system. One of the things I have to have in my system is wire. Wire for power, from source to integrated amp and amp to speakers. I do not need or want tone controls or an eq. Since I have to have cables I choose the ones that compliment my system. Tone controls and eq's can add a whole set of problems themselves and eq's require two pair of interconnects to a preamp or int amp or one extra pair if run between the pre and power. It seems like the judicious use of cables can minimize the need for an eq and allow tone controls to be bypassed. I find that approach to provide better sound and minimize the number and expense of cables and the expense of an eq. I am not talking mega dollar cables either but cables no more than $200 a pair by reputable manufacturers.

[E-Stat]

Cables should not be purchased as tone altering devices.

I don't know any folks who chose their cables for purposes of equalization. FWIW, I use a third octave EQ on the powered subs in my HT system.

A standard copper cable transmits all there is to transmit.

That's where the real debate exists. The direct experience of many suggests otherwise. Have you worked out JNeutron's math? I find the benefits lie with greater resolving power and improved spatial cues found in musical recordings.

An esoteric cable can only filter, not add.

Well stated! That is an area where improvements are made in the real world via shielding from detail robbing RFI and other noise. Allow only the music to pass. Thirty years ago, there were many engineers who scoffed at the notion of an amplifier's power transformer having any audible effect on the sound. Or to products like the VPI Brick which trapped the EMF. Toroids are now the norm.

It is simply hoped that new people to the hobby will save their money and use it where it will do some good and that is in better speakers or room conditioning.

I would hope that anyone not blindly accept any viewpoints made here. I learned by exposure to new components and experimentation and would recommend that course of action to those interested.

rw

[Bernd]

Perhaps they are not trying to change your opinion at all. There are many new people that read this forum every day. It is they that will benefit from the information. Cables should not be purchased as tone altering devices. That's what the tone control is for on a receiver. If you are driving an amp only, simply buy an equalizer. An esoteric cable cannot add any frequencies whatsoever. A standard copper cable transmits all there is to transmit. An esoteric cable can only filter, not add. Personally, I won't argue this subject with you or anyone, it is pointless. It is simply hoped that new people to the hobby will save their money and use it where it will do some good and that is in better speakers or room conditioning.

I have just one question for you.

Why do you want to alter the tone from the recording you bought?

My amp has a Volume knob that's it. And believe me it sounds glorious and free from interference by controls.

The better cables,in my experience, let you hear more of the signal.

Peace

Bernd

[ruadmaa]

I have just one question for you.

Why do you want to alter the tone from the recording you bought?

My amp has a Volume knob that's it. And believe me it sounds glorious and free from interference by controls.

The better cables,in my experience, let you hear more of the signal.

Peace

Bernd

First off, I prefer to use a bit more treble as I enjoy a bright sounding system. Simply a personal preference. As to you hearing more of the signal by using better cables???? A copper wire (standard zip cord) transmits all the signal that there is to convey, (you may consider that a verity if you wish).

[Bernd]

First off, I prefer to use a bit more treble as I enjoy a bright sounding system. Simply a personal preference. As to you hearing more of the signal by using better cables???? A copper wire (standard zip cord) transmits all the signal that there is to convey, (you may consider that a verity if you wish).

Yeah I understand, but why not then buy bright sounding electronics or speakers?

I guess we're both coming from a different point of view. I always, ever since I started in this crazy hobby of ours, have aproached it the following way.
I am the listener and am reponsible for the room and the clean mains. They are the musicians, recording engineers, etc and the hardware manufacturers who release their product which I choose to buy.
So I absolutly have, or had ever, no desire to mess with the recorded sound.
Free choice and no wrong or right.

Enjoy

Bernd

[ruadmaa]

Yeah I understand, but why not then buy bright sounding electronics or speakers?

I guess we're both coming from a different point of view. I always, ever since I started in this crazy hobby of ours, have aproached it the following way.
I am the listener and am reponsible for the room and the clean mains. They are the musicians, recording engineers, etc and the hardware manufacturers who release their product which I choose to buy.
So I absolutly have, or had ever, no desire to mess with the recorded sound.
Free choice and no wrong or right.

Enjoy

Bernd

"So I absolutly have, or had ever, no desire to mess with the recorded sound.
sound".

Actually you have messed with the recorded sound in every way possible. First by your choice of speakers, their placement in your room etc. Second by the way your room is furnished, its' size and many other variable factors involved with rooms. The fact that you don't use tone controls does not in any way guarantee that you are listening to a flat signal. As stated above, there are too many variables involved. Chances are, the program you are listening to sounds substantially different than that which was originally recorded.

As to purchasing speakers that are bright. Actually mine are fairly high definition. I prefer bright, not strident. For example, Klipsch speakers are bright, I simply don't care for the sound of them, again personal preference. You will notice that I certainly didn't say Klipsch speakers were not good.
"

[JohnMichael]

"So I absolutly have, or had ever, no desire to mess with the recorded sound.
sound".

Actually you have messed with the recorded sound in every way possible. First by your choice of speakers, their placement in your room etc. Second by the way your room is furnished, its' size and many other variable factors involved with rooms. The fact that you don't use tone controls does not in any way guarantee that you are listening to a flat signal. As stated above, there are too many variables involved. Chances are, the program you are listening to sounds substantially different than that which was originally recorded.

As to purchasing speakers that are bright. Actually mine are fairly high definition. I prefer bright, not strident. For example, Klipsch speakers are bright, I simply don't care for the sound of them, again personal preference. You will notice that I certainly didn't say Klipsch speakers were not good.
"

Out of curiosity what equipment does your system contain. You only list one product with which I am not familiar.

[Bernd]

"So I absolutly have, or had ever, no desire to mess with the recorded sound.
sound".

Actually you have messed with the recorded sound in every way possible. First by your choice of speakers, their placement in your room etc. Second by the way your room is furnished, its' size and many other variable factors involved with rooms. The fact that you don't use tone controls does not in any way guarantee that you are listening to a flat signal. As stated above, there are too many variables involved. Chances are, the program you are listening to sounds substantially different than that which was originally recorded.

As to purchasing speakers that are bright. Actually mine are fairly high definition. I prefer bright, not strident. For example, Klipsch speakers are bright, I simply don't care for the sound of them, again personal preference. You will notice that I certainly didn't say Klipsch speakers were not good.
"

You're certainly right that the sound in my home will be different from the recording studio, I have witnessed this process a couple of times. But why mess even more with it? When I record some of my basic Guitar playing, (just with one mic.) onto a tape recorder, that sounds different. The sound I like determined the equipment I bought. It is after all for my enjoyment but I like to appreciate what the professionals have done. I don't want to mess with that. I had this conversation before here and there is no point going over old ground again. I am happy with my choice and I hope sincerly you are too.
Each to their own.

Peace

Bernd

[jneutron]

Yeah, sorry John, you are right about the voltage bit! I should have been more accurate in my statement.

No problem. If it were an easy topic, it would be no fun.

There does seem to be a strong opinion on the topic of speaker cables, and that's enough for me to try a few more cables. If I do hear a difference then I certainly won't be shy in admitting I was wrong. If they improve my system, then I'll be thankfull. I just seriously doubt they will....

There are three major applications of music. The first is the big venue, pro stuff. Specific criteria are required for these apps. I run an occasional gig in an auditorium, outdoor, dance party, wedding, and use #12awg with neutriks..no big deal.

The second is typical listening. Things like speakers in the kitchens, outdoor speakers, background, simple listening, multiple people in the room, nobody at the sweet spot...Ones where we would hear distortion, wild response swings, that kind of thing, but never is there focus on imaging of soundstage.

The third is what I call atypical listening. Sweet spot, dedicated room, lots of concentration. For this app, attention to phase response, amplitude response, and interchannel parameters is required. Not only does the fidelity need to be there, but the channel to channel correlation must be there. Imaging a soundstage requires control of Interaural Temporal Delay (ITD) as well as Interaural Intensity Difference (IID).

Unfortunately (or fortunately) we humans are sensitive to ITD shifts as low as 2 to 5 uSec, and IID shifts down to the .5dB (and possibly down to .05dB), although a regimented and scientifically accurate measurement of that capability has yet to be done correctly.

You, as one who has designed filters, will understand the issues of component tolerances and pot tracking as they apply to two channel phase and amplitude tracking. For the most part, tone controls are great for type two listening, but can mess up the imaging parameters for type three. For my PA apps, I've used an 11 band eq, and can't wait to try that little baby eq.

Speaker cables can have lumped element parameters sufficient enough to affect ITD and IID for type three listening. But for one or two, are silly to consider.

Gene (GDS) points out the folly of esoteric cable stuff (even the scientifically correct) for the majority of apps, and tries to consistently point out the erroneous technical "stuff" out there. For the majority of the people out there, zip is indeed enough..

But from my research, it would appear that it can be insufficient for some applications.

Cheers, John

[jneutron]

Somehow, I missed this. I am guessing that it was added within an edit?

If you genuinly want to discuss signal transfer and filter characteristics then fly to Western Australia and study with me. You are right about the affect of group delay on possibly perseptive freqs, but are recording studios employing the hardware to accurately record this?

The internet and e-mail tends to make travel far less necessary nowadays. It is rather easy nowadays to collaborate, jpegs are so easy to send, and video conferences help sometimes. It is extremely useful when the customer is a consortium of researchers, with some in California, Japan, Brazil, Geneva, and Boston. Visits are only necessary when they are interested in a face to face, or to see how we build the stuff.

As for recording studios...they do not have the ability to apply the necessary ITD or IID to plant an image in the desired location in space for two channel reproduction. The best they can hope for is to alter IID (pan pot) far enough that we humans perceive the image lateral shift. But this is modification of stimulus that does not exist in nature.

Have you read the comments on speaker cables from one of the most respected people in the business (GDS). After all, his comments are available on this site.

Yes, I've read most of his stuff. A few of them I read prior to them being "published", as I have been asked on occasion to proof them, mainly for technical accuracy. On occasion, he will include a quote or two of mine.

Do you also feel more qualified than him on the subject?

For items which he quotes me or asks me to review for technical accuracy, yes.

For the subject of localization and differential localization, and e/m field theory and ramifications, yes again.

For articles where I am unfamiliar with the topic content, no...I am not more qualified. In fact, I have read several of them for things like video cable standards and home theatre stuff. It is fun learning, and it is a good resource.

Please be careful on edits. Others may not re-read the post once they have responded, and it can be confusing. I saw your reference to Gene in another post, but did not remember having seen it the first time..perhaps it was just me..

Cheers, John

[hermanv]

Hoo Boy, more cable wars, love-em.

From having slung my share of mud, I'd say about 95% of all forum readers have firmly made up their mind on this issue. Some agree cables make a difference some do not. Maybe 5% could be convinced to consider the arguments, all others are firmly in one camp or the other.

I am firmly in the believe camp, I too am an electronic engineer, I've done the math but my ears commited treason by not agreeing with my teachings. The best I can say as an engineer is that a CD has a dynamic range of almost 100 dB, this allows one to record small signals that are almost 100,000 smaller than the biggest signal. This is equal to about 0.001%, note that most electronic test equipment is not nearly this good.

After a great deal of experimentation my friend and I learned much of what it takes to make interconnect cables as good as the best we could afford (somewhere around $750). Once we knew the "trick" we also knew how to measure for the effect. But, if you don't know why a given cable makes a difference then you can't very well measure for it. In our case we found that we agreed with many posts on the internet. For interconnect cables the physical quality that made one cable sound clearer or cleaner than another exactly followed the dielectric constant and was presumed to be dielectric absorbtion, the lower the better. We ended up making our own cables where the dielectric was mostly air.

I guess I wish all of the corespondents would stop talking in terms of absolutes. The difference between two cables is not staggering, but once you've spent up to or over $10,000 for your system, getting that last little bit of clarity with a better cable is not unreasonable.

As to the snake oil camp, I have pointed out that a large number of magic devices have not stood the marketplace test. Green markers, CD dampning rings, CD demagnatizers and many others have died in the marketplace. It would seem they didn't work or the improvement if any wasn't worth the cost or the effort. Cables continue to sell well and the well established brands continue to offer new models and more and more suppliers seem to entering this market. Circumstantial evidence that this stuff works.

Why not just listen, it is a hobby, invest some time. Most stores will lend you cables. If nothing happens you can post to future forums with confidence. And if it does sound different, then you get to figure out if its better or worse different. Whee. Warning, the more I did this, the better I got at hearing small changes, hide your wallet.

[stevenv]

Hi There,

I am new here. But I read you post and here is my view on this matter.

I have just moved house. Before I move I can plug my AC cable directly from a power point to my tube amp. It works fine. But now I have to plug my amp to an extension board and the bass is gone.. gone ,.... you know what I mean?

Yesterday I just into our local Jaycar store and grape some of those in wall main power cable (with white jacket)... those cheaply $2 meter cable with big copper strain instead of many smaller strain. They are not flexible at all sine they are suppose to be wire up your shouse, but they have a good cross section of solid copper and I just build a power cable cost less than $15 (with plugs) Now I am a happy man...

I don't think spending millions on a AC cable is wise, but building a solid copper AC cable next to nothing will really work try it your self.

[Fergymunster]

I was once sceptical of power cords.My friend who's schooled in electronics simply said that any power cord is a foolish investment.However,since the year 2000 these power cords have been around.I asked myself why are power cords being back ordered on web sites going in the excess of one thousand dollors.With that said I recently purchused the CA azur 640c V1 and begain to wonder about power cords as an option.I read that others had change the PC on this particular unit.A store less than one mile from had AQ products in their store.Out of curiuosity I went to the store and the salesman said I could try the AQ NRG-2 power cord for 30 days and if I wasn't satisfied I could take it back with no questions asked.He also said you might need to burn it in for about 72 hours.Knowing a had 30 days I burned the cable on my computer for about 80 hours just to make sure.I then hooked it up to the CD player and really didn't notice much of a difference.I decided to leave it on for a couple of days and then go from there.I started to notice some improvents but not enough to justify the $175 price tag.My next step was leaning towards power conditioners so I got the Monster SW200 surge protector with stage 1 clean power curcuitry.Pluged the PC into that and notice some more improvement.Still not satisfied with this combination I by impulse took the black RF ferrite noise stopper of of the cord and BINGO the sound quality opened up.I was now getting a unique sound stage that finally became apparent to me and the differnce over the stock cord was substantial.Tighter bass,the plick of the acoustic guitar.In short it transformed the whole sound stage to a higher level.Yes,a night and day difference.It took me about two weeks before this dawned on me.I've owned the cable now about a month and a half and it has mellowed into my system nicely..

[JohnMichael]

I was once sceptical of power cords.My friend who's schooled in electronics simply said that any power cord is a foolish investment.However,since the year 2000 these power cords have been around.I asked myself why are power cords being back ordered on web sites going in the excess of one thousand dollors.With that said I recently purchused the CA azur 640c V1 and begain to wonder about power cords as an option.I read that others had change the PC on this particular unit.A store less than one mile from had AQ products in their store.Out of curiuosity I went to the store and the salesman said I could try the AQ NRG-2 power cord for 30 days and if I wasn't satisfied I could take it back with no questions asked.He also said you might need to burn it in for about 72 hours.Knowing a had 30 days I burned the cable on my computer for about 80 hours just to make sure.I then hooked it up to the CD player and really didn't notice much of a difference.I decided to leave it on for a couple of days and then go from there.I started to notice some improvents but not enough to justify the $175 price tag.My next step was leaning towards power conditioners so I got the Monster SW200 surge protector with stage 1 clean power curcuitry.Pluged the PC into that and notice some more improvement.Still not satisfied with this combination I by impulse took the black RF ferrite noise stopper of of the cord and BINGO the sound quality opened up.I was now getting a unique sound stage that finally became apparent to me and the differnce over the stock cord was substantial.Tighter bass,the plick of the acoustic guitar.In short it transformed the whole sound stage to a higher level.Yes,a night and day difference.It took me about two weeks before this dawned on me.I've owned the cable now about a month and a half and it has mellowed into my system nicely..

You make a good point about cables and ac cables in particular. It takes some time to recognize the change and if it is an improvement. When I change cables I might be pleased with the initial improvement but if it is not a positive change I find myself enjoying the music less. If I find I am not looking forward to playing my stereo I know I have made the wrong cable choice. This usually happens in two weeks time. Something that would not be obvious in an AB comparison.

[superpanavision70mm]

if person A does not notice a difference with using enhanced power cords and person B does...what can one conclude? Well, just because one person wants to say that there is no difference perhaps other factors are involved. Maybe you are not listening to the same attributes or maybe your system does not enable a increase in quality. a better power cable is not going to make a lick of difference in an already cheap-o setup. However, the better the equipment the more noticeable little tweaks become.

[musicman1999]

I believe 70mm has a good point and one that applies to many of the battles that go on here about cables and amps and cd players.There is no point in puting $500.00 worth of speaker wire on a $200.00 htib.Of course they will not hear a difference.Everything is relative to how revealing your system is.

bill

[jneutron]

You guys crack me up...

Line cords making a difference, what a joke..



Now for a healthy dose of reality..

As long as youze guys buy the crapola designed audio equipment that is on the market, your gonna have this problem.

Your line cords spray the supply haversines all over creation in the form of helically formed dipole magnetic fields, your amplifiers do NOTHING (I'll repeat)...NOTHING at all to prevent this, nor the internal chassis fields resulting from the line haversines, the secondary haversines, the secondary high slew rate audio currents (a result of forcing a low impedance output), the wall outlets FORCE the coupling geometry between the magnetic dipole and the ground loop (where do you think your amplifier is deriving it's input reference from????.

And all along, not a damn thing is being done to TEST your amplifiers to ground current sensitivity..

Where in hell do you think ground loop hum comes from????

Shielding the PC doesn't do a thing. Ferrites change the coupling constants, twist pitch of the PC affects it, PC insulation thickness affects it, ground loop resistance affects is, IC shield resistance affects it...connector resistance affects it..

In other words, while all you guys argue back and forth about cables do this, cables don't do that, yada yada..nobody's addressing the real issue...

Your systems are designed like crap.

Sorry..there's no other way to put it.

I've explained the relationships, drawn pictures, taken pictures...

Years now..and yet, you still have the problems..

No standards...how does one improve the technology without standards of test???

Cheers, John.

PS...cooooll..I actually ranted...

[Resident Loser]

You guys crack me up...

Line cords making a difference, what a joke..

Now for a healthy dose of reality..

Cheers, John.

PS...cooooll..I actually ranted...

...but have you listened?...I mean really listened?...

I was remarking to myself earlier today that joining in the fray would be a fool's errand, since the minds and ears are made up and the same ol', same ol' is just getting tedious...

Reality...we ain't got no reality...we are audiophiles and we have soundstage...we don't need no stinkin' reality...

It's folks like you what cause unrest...

jimHJJ(...keep up the good work...)