Trying To Prove A Point

[hermanv]

Most crossovers are designed with inductors and capacitors. A crossover is a FILTER system, not an eq system. Resistors are only used with non-matching components, and they do NOT eq. the speaker other than to match components overall output..

This is simply untrue. Crossovers are used to match levels as well a filter frequencies. L's and C's for frequency and R's for level or Q. The 3 way crossover my friend and I designed contains 9 resistors.

Watch out, many speakers are rated at 2.83 VRMS which does happen to be 1 Watt at 8 Ohms. If this how they are rated then speaker impedance does in fact enter into the question.

Last but not least is program content, most of us do not listen to white noise. Much recorded music contains more bass energy.

Please stop speaking in absolutes the question is more complex than that.

[audio amateur]

Wow, I think I'm late to the party!

Fortunately Geoff has already said what I want I have to say about the topic.

[Geoffcin]

This is simply untrue. Crossovers are used to match levels as well a filter frequencies. L's and C's for frequency and R's for level or Q. The 3 way crossover my friend and I designed contains 9 resistors.

Watch out, many speakers are rated at 2.83 VRMS which does happen to be 1 Watt at 8 Ohms. If this how they are rated then speaker impedance does in fact enter into the question.

Last but not least is program content, most of us do not listen to white noise. Much recorded music contains more bass energy.

Please stop speaking in absolutes the question is more complex than that.

Yes, your correct. A resistor would be used to match the separate drivers, and in a rudiment way it would provide passive eq, but that would be across all the frequency that the specific driver would cover. A more sophisticated Linkwitz transform circuit would be required if you want to ramp the eq up as the driver's efficiency goes down. (independent of frequency direction) But then you would need a dedicated amp, and for the basis of simplicity we were talking about passive circuitry.

No, of course we don't listen to white noise, but a good speaker designer shoots for as flat a response from his design as possible.

Absolutes are what basic physics is all about. A dB of sound energy is a dB of sound energy whether it's 20Hz, or 20kHz. They have the same intrinsic power. If a driver is less efficent then it's going to take more input power to create the same SPL. The laws are well known and are indisputable even if people want to believe otherwise.

[Geoffcin]

well being insulted about the chevy small block thing cracks me up because you are at a point that you have to insult someone to make your point. That is a sign that your points are not justified and you are trying to just be bullish in your comments and that is not needed what so ever. I have been around home sound and pro sound for many years and the last thing I would so is try to insult someone I would just try to make your point and not worry so much about what others say. And if you made the perfect speaker then for damn sure I would have would heard about it know.

Hey dude, it wasn't an insult, and I'm sorry if you took it as such. I just was trying to point out that they are different things totally and as such not good for a comparison. Actually the Chevy small block is MUCH more efficient than any speaker, so perhaps we should switch to internal combustion if we really want to design a better speaker...

A good sound guy wants a balanced sound so you can hear everyone playing. He's got to know his equipment, and it's efficiencies and balance them correctly. I was close friends with a local band when I back in school. They started to play larger and larger clubs, and had to rent big sound gear to do them. For one of the larger venues they rented a massive horn loaded bass reinforcement cab. I thought for sure that this massive cab would take 1000's of watts to drive, but the rating was for 500 watts max, and a SPL of 109dB for 1 watt! As I remember they hooked it up to a 200w amp and the thing would quite literally blow people down at 6ft!

[poppachubby]

Ya, I haven't talked to my tech friend yet. I think I am going to look online to try to solve this mystery. It seems strange that we are all so split on what should be a cut and dry topic.

I will say again, it takes less power to drive a larger speaker. It's just that simple.

[02audionoob]

I will say again, it takes less power to drive a larger speaker. It's just that simple.

I thought the topic is whether more power is required in producing a high note than a low note. If you want to say it would require more power to get a given amount of sound out of a 6-inch woofer than it would to get that much sound out of an 8-inch woofer of the otherwise exact same design, I'll buy that. This topic looks like it has more variables than that, though.

[poppachubby]

I thought the topic is whether more power is required in producing a high note than a low note. If you want to say it would require more power to get a given amount of sound out of a 6-inch woofer than it would to get that much sound out of an 8-inch woofer of the otherwise exact same design, I'll buy that. This topic looks like it has more variables than that, though.

This is however, the root of the issue. Before any freq. is considered, we must look at the basic electrical process that allows any freq. to be emitted at all. Now, if it takes more power to drive a smaller speaker or for our discussion, tweeter, surely that lends to the argument regarding frequencies.

[02audionoob]

This is however, the root of the issue. Before any freq. is considered, we must look at the basic electrical process that allows any freq. to be emitted at all. Now, if it takes more power to drive a smaller speaker or for our discussion, tweeter, surely that lends to the argument regarding frequencies.

I honestly don't see the connection. With the comparison of two woofer sizes, we're talking about getting the same sound out of two speakers. The original topic is about two different sounds.

[poppachubby]

No, it can lend to two different frequencies noob, the first principle of power dispersion will govern the frequency principle. Dude are you coming online or what? At the very least come on so we can split hairs....

[E-Stat]

A dB of sound energy is a dB of sound energy whether it's 20Hz, or 20kHz. They have the same intrinsic power.

The discussion has seemed to have drifted from the original question: "So in other words the lower the note the more power or the higher the note the more power?"

You refer to a resulting output, not what is required to achieve that. Can you find an example of a multi-way active speaker that uses a higher powered amplifier for the tweeter than for the woofer? The overwhelming number I find, including a Braun unit I once had, use typically about twice as much power for the low frequencies than the high frequencies to achieve an output that is level balanced.

rw

[GMichael]

Has anyone ever heard a tweeter clip? Or draw so much power that it makes your lights dim?

[E-Stat]

Has anyone ever heard a tweeter clip? Or draw so much power that it makes your lights dim?

Strictly speaking, clipping is a characteristic of an amplification stage not a driver. It is when the driven signal shape appears "clipped" or flattened out due to overload. Can tweeters be over driven? Absolutely. While the failure mode usually doesn't include over-excursion as you can find in a woofer, their voice coils can be fried. That is the reason behind using ferrofluid damping.

rw

[GMichael]

Strictly speaking, clipping is a characteristic of an amplification stage not a driver. It is when the driven signal shape appears "clipped" or flattened out due to overload. Can tweeters be over driven? Absolutely. While the failure mode usually doesn't include over-excursion as you can find in a woofer, their voice coils can be fried. That is the reason behind using ferrofluid damping.

rw

I think you are saying what I meant to say. Has a tweeter ever drawn so much power that the amp clips?
As far as overdriving a tweeter, I am painfully aware of that. Remember the whole blowing the tweeters out of my 3 week old speakers a few years back? Those darn test tones!

[Geoffcin]

The discussion has seemed to have drifted from the original question: "So in other words the lower the note the more power or the higher the note the more power?"

You refer to a resulting output, not what is required to achieve that. Can you find an example of a multi-way active speaker that uses a higher powered amplifier for the tweeter than for the woofer?
rw

And you always will. Unless of course you want to live with speakers the size of the Majestic 945, which is flat down to ~25Hz or so. Nowhere have I said that woofers and tweeters ALWAYS have equivalent efficiency. Most don't. However if they did, then one watt of input would equate to the same SPL no matter what the frequency.

[E-Stat]

And you always will.

Perhaps that is the answer to the original question posed by the car stereo guy.

rw

[Geoffcin]

I think you are saying what I meant to say. Has a tweeter ever drawn so much power that the amp clips?
the tweeters out of my 3 week old speakers a few years back? Those darn test tones!

I would say yes absolutely, because I've done it!

Back when I got my (then new) Alpha 9 CD player I hooked it up and played Pink Floyd's "Time". For those who don't know the song the beginning starts off quietly and then dozens of alarm clocks start going off. I set the volume on my pre amp to what I thought was a pretty decent level and than sat back down. What I didn't count on what the Arcam CD player had a good 50% more output than my old CD player. When the alarm clocks cam in the sound was deafening, and then, before I could get up one tweeter and then to other ceased to play. Luckily the tweeters on my speakers are fused, but when I did the math to see how much energy it would take to fry then it came out to 275 watts!? That's well past the rating for my amp, and for sure what caused them to fry was the clipping waveform.

[Geoffcin]

Perhaps that is the answer to the original question posed by the car stereo guy.

rw

Car stereo?! You mean guys who do stuff like this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pthHmI5e7eU

[audio amateur]

I really wonder the need for all that foul language

[Geoffcin]

I really wonder the need for all that foul language

Brain damage caused by high amplitude bass exposure.....

[hermanv]

Brain damage caused by high amplitude bass exposure.....

It's worse than you think. A British lad tested at a 10db loss of hearing sensitivity due to his excessively loud stereo. His response? "Oh good, now I can get more watts." Purportedly a true story.

[Geoffcin]

It's worse than you think. A British lad tested at a 10db loss of hearing sensitivity due to his excessively loud stereo. His response? "Oh good, now I can get more watts." Purportedly a true story.

Oh I believe it. There's no way any of these guys who listen to music (and I use that word loosely) at these obscene levels are going to escape without massive hearing loss.

[harley .guy07]

Oh I believe it. There's no way any of these guys who listen to music (and I use that word loosely) at these obscene levels are going to escape without massive hearing loss.

To clear myself of this I will say that I am not a music cranker as I listen at sane listening levels and was never a car audio bass head as some people on here might be I do know about car audio but I was always involved with the quality of the sound not the quantity of the bass.

[Geoffcin]

To clear myself of this I will say that I am not a music cranker as I listen at sane listening levels and was never a car audio bass head as some people on here might be I do know about car audio but I was always involved with the quality of the sound not the quantity of the bass.

A likely story... To bad I've found a video of your family minivan in action;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cewac...om=PL&index=66

[Mr Peabody]

We are on our 4th page and nothing has really been settled or learned. It's not hard at all to find a woofer and tweeter with matching sensitivity. I posted several links that shows even with a single woofer in a box it takes more power to reproduce lower frequencies.

So, if a 2-way box speaker had matching tweeter and woofer in sensitivity, Geoffcin you maintain the crossover does nothing but separate the frequency? No effect on power at all? Hermanv, if this is his assertion is it correct? Why not?

The reason we have not reached a conclusion is most want to put out an opinion with nothing at all to back it up. I would have thought as mods and ties to the audio world that some one could have provided some hard evidence, facts. I don't want to argue, debate maybe, I want to know if I'm wrong, I want to know the facts. Geoffcin no matter your background I hope you don't just expect me to take your word over all that I have found.

[poppachubby]

Peabody I appreciate what you're saying, but let's not confuse a biased Google search with real, hard research. Personally, I don't think anyone has done much to "prove" anything here.