Trying To Prove A Point

[Geoffcin]

We are on our 4th page and nothing has really been settled or learned. Geoffcin no matter your background I hope you don't just expect me to take your word over all that I have found.

Actually we're on the 6'th page now. But if you don't want to take my word on that I'm cool with it.

[BallinWithNash]

enough of if the speaker was this or this. Let's talk about a normal enviroment ok, If you took my polks and my sub and played a high frequency through my polks and a low frequency on my sub at the same volume it would take more power to drive my sub especially if it is at 10Hz I almost clipped my amp (my crown) on the sub but my marantz was fine.

[BallinWithNash]

I will say again, it takes less power to drive a larger speaker. It's just that simple.

Ok that makes no sense, then why don't we have are big amps (i am using big as in the amps that dish out the most power) powering are tweeters? if it takes less power to drive a bigger speaker. And if that is the case then it must require a lot less power to reproduce a high frequency because tweeter's basically require no power at all at least compared to subs, my sub is being driven by 450 watts my midange and tweeters are being driven by no more then 50 watts ... it's actually 40 watts that's all that is driving my tweet's and midrange but I have 450 watts going into my 12" sub??? so recap, it either takes more power to drive a bigger speaker or (key word OR) a lower frequency note takes more power to reproduce. Or both.

[Mr Peabody]

Well, Poppa, Google or not, the posts are from reputable sources, not forums or heresay. Either way it's a damn sight better than you've done so far. You can't even think of an example of any one using a larger or even same size amp for tweeters in a multi amp set up. What you are saying is actually just stupid. At least the others have had a viable opposition. So you go ahead and put 25 watts on your woofer and 100 to 200 on the tweets and see what happens.

[poppachubby]

Well, Poppa, Google or not, the posts are from reputable sources, not forums or heresay. Either way it's a damn sight better than you've done so far. You can't even think of an example of any one using a larger or even same size amp for tweeters in a multi amp set up. What you are saying is actually just stupid. At least the others have had a viable opposition. So you go ahead and put 25 watts on your woofer and 100 to 200 on the tweets and see what happens.

Why are you getting so mad? All of my posts have had disclaimers. It's what has been explained to me recently and I shared it. It seems to me that you can't get your head past this Big Speaker = Lower Power. Does it not seem conceivable to you that science works beyond the assumable?

Relax yourself. All I am saying is nobody here has gone out and done any research. It's just biased links from the internet. Do you know what research looks like? I do and I will be the first to say, no, I haven't done any.

Honestly, is Ballin With Nash really coming across with anymore clarity than me? Or is it just that he agrees with you?

[BallinWithNash]

Honestly, is Ballin With Nash really coming across with anymore clarity than me? Or is it just that he agrees with you?

Hey, don't be dissing on me now I have tried not to poke fun at or make fun of other people this whole time. If you guys are going to do that that's fine just leave me out of it

[BallinWithNash]

I did research I ran a high frequency and a low one like I explained earlier. The high one was handled fine the low one almost clipped ... My volume knob was the same for each i never turned it or eq'd it any differently.

[poppachubby]

Ok that makes no sense, then why don't we have are big amps (i am using big as in the amps that dish out the most power) powering are tweeters? if it takes less power to drive a bigger speaker. And if that is the case then it must require a lot less power to reproduce a high frequency because tweeter's basically require no power at all at least compared to subs, my sub is being driven by 450 watts my midange and tweeters are being driven by no more then 50 watts ... it's actually 40 watts that's all that is driving my tweet's and midrange but I have 450 watts going into my 12" sub??? so recap, it either takes more power to drive a bigger speaker or (key word OR) a lower frequency note takes more power to reproduce. Or both.

Mr. Nash, unlike you I will not throw a bunch of numbers and jargon out there to try to prove a point. Clearly, this process involves a magnetic field and I suppose when the signal is introduced to a small field, the amp must work harder to further it. I don't know why, but you don't either and are really clutching at straws.

[poppachubby]

Hey, don't be dissing on me now I have tried not to poke fun at or make fun of other people this whole time. If you guys are going to do that that's fine just leave me out of it

No diss, just stating the facts. You seem no clearer than me on this issue, regardless of your scientific endeavours.

[BallinWithNash]

Clearly, this process involves a magnetic field and I suppose when the signal is introduced to a small field, the amp must work harder to further it. I don't know why, but you don't either and are really clutching at straws.

Yes but again no one has been able to prove me wrong. "it either takes more power to drive a bigger speaker or (key word OR) a lower frequency note takes more power to reproduce. Or both." Why do we put are big amps on are big speakers? a bigger speaker needs more air to be pushed which means it needs more power.

[BallinWithNash]

O worded that very badly. i meant a bigger speaker pushes more air so it takes more power to be driven.

[audio amateur]

We are on our 4th page and nothing has really been settled or learned. It's not hard at all to find a woofer and tweeter with matching sensitivity. I posted several links that shows even with a single woofer in a box it takes more power to reproduce lower frequencies.

So, if a 2-way box speaker had matching tweeter and woofer in sensitivity, Geoffcin you maintain the crossover does nothing but separate the frequency? No effect on power at all? Hermanv, if this is his assertion is it correct? Why not?

The reason we have not reached a conclusion is most want to put out an opinion with nothing at all to back it up. I would have thought as mods and ties to the audio world that some one could have provided some hard evidence, facts. I don't want to argue, debate maybe, I want to know if I'm wrong, I want to know the facts. Geoffcin no matter your background I hope you don't just expect me to take your word over all that I have found.

P, what you have done is come up with 3 links, one explaining that as a sub woofer's response in an enclosure rolls off you need more power to get the lower octaves up (not relevant), and the other two explaining conventional high-pass low-pass filters, which again, does not show that more power is required as you go down the frequency spectrum.

[Geoffcin]

Yes but again no one has been able to prove me wrong. "it either takes more power to drive a bigger speaker or (key word OR) a lower frequency note takes more power to reproduce. Or both." Why do we put are big amps on are big speakers? a bigger speaker needs more air to be pushed which means it needs more power.

When you talk about bass reproduction, Poppa is essentially correct about bigger speakers needing less power to produce the same SPL. Smaller subs get around this by having much larger amps to compensate for their inefficient design, but there is a limit.

I don't know if you read my anecdote about the massive bass cab with the 109dB for one watt sensitivity, but just 1 watt into that puppy would shake your house to the foundation.

Also, we don't always put big amps on big speakers. Some of the largest designs are made specifically for modest power amps. Speakers like this;

http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/ho...n&produkt_id=4

or this;

http://wilsonaudio.com/product_html/alex_specs.html

Hook either one of these massive speakers to your little 15 watt tube amp and watch the walls shake!

[poppachubby]

Why do we put are big amps on are big speakers? a bigger speaker needs more air to be pushed which means it needs more power.

This is so subjective I don't even know where to start. Hey I know, why don't you address it Mr. Peabody?

Nash, perhaps you're familiar with Klipsch? Their whole "shtick" is super efficient speakers that are suitable for single ended tube amps or low RMS solid state amps.

How do they attain this? Not by building enclosures that require small speakers. Quite the opposite, woofers are 8 or 10 inches and they use horns to help with the tweeters inneffiency. They have been doing this for years, it's their trademark and has resulted in a distinctive "Klipsch sound".

Infact have a look at most ultra efficient speakers and what you'll find is sizable woofers in most. Cerwin Vega and JBL come to mind.

Please, I am as interested in knowing the truth on this subject as anyone else. Explain to me how it is that companies like Cerwin Vega can put a huge 15 inch speaker in an enclosure, and manage to have it only require 4ohms.

How is this efficiency achieved if the larger the speaker, the more power required?

[Geoffcin]

O worded that very badly. i meant a bigger speaker pushes more air so it takes more power to be driven.

Yes, your correct a bigger speaker pushes more air per distance the driver travels, but it travels less distance to produce the same SPL so it really doesn't take more power to drive it. I think the mistake your making is because you FEEL a bass not you think it has more power, when it fact a 90dB bass not has EXACTLY the same energy as a 90dB treble note. A bass note will couple to your body leaving it's energy there, where a treble note will have a tendency to bounce right off of you. Even if your wearing treble absorbent clothing your not going to "feel" a treble note. your just not sensitive to it.

[poppachubby]

Even if your wearing treble absorbent clothing your not going to "feel" a treble note. your just not sensitive to it.

Who would have thought that slicing hairs over speakers would produce our million dollar idea?!?

Introducing GeoffChubb Clothing Co.

Clothes for the serious audiophile. We provide fashionable clothing that will help you to feel those lost frequencies. Trust us, you'll be the only one in the room dancing with GeoffChubb wear. Available in many styles and colours, we have what you need.

Check out our new winter line:

35kHZ Parka with zipped Hood - $300
Treble Boost Polo, all colours - $40

Please visit us at www.yourastupidaudiophile.com for more info...

[Geoffcin]

Who would have thought that slicing hairs over speakers would produce our million dollar idea?!?

Introducing GeoffChubb Clothing Co.

Clothes for the serious audiophile. We provide fashionable clothing that will help you to feel those lost frequencies. Trust us, you'll be the only one in the room dancing with GeoffChubb wear. Available in many styles and colours, we have what you need.

Check out our new winter line:

35kHZ Parka with zipped Hood - $300
Treble Boost Polo, all colours - $40

Please visit us at www.yourastupidaudiophile.com for more info...

Too funny!

[poppachubby]

I thought so...

[poppachubby]

Oh totally unrelated, but to add a little love to this wasteland of anger and confusion....

I caught the MMF and the Q2 today. Ever the voyeur, I got out the camera. PM me for more "in depth" pics.

[Mr Peabody]

Poppa, you are at it again, no one ever said the bigger the speaker the more power, what was said is, it takes more power to reproduce a bass note, or low frequencies than higher ones. What's Klipsch or Wilson have to do with anything? It's a high sensitive box speaker that has both low and high frequency drivers which means nothing to what is being discussed. No wonder no one has anything to add, no one can remember the point of discussion. And, how can the articles be biased? Biased toward what? You think I called and had them custom written? Like I said you haven't found anything to dispute them, biased or otherwise. You guys go off on all these tangents and think you're disproving something.

AA, you either have reading comp issues or didn't bother reading the articles completely. They clearly talk about the power reduction as frequency goes up and increase as frequency goes down. You all are using the equalizer as an excuse to disregard, the speaker would need the same power to reproduce that low frequency whether or not the EQ was in place, that is, if the driver was capable of playing that low on it's own. You're just trying to repeat what Geoffcin posted which doesn't make it any more valid if you repeat it.

If you look at a power formula that uses "time" as one of the factors you will notice the longer the time the more power. So if you have a 16 kHz signal a wave isn't going to be long at 16,000 time a second. Where as one only 30 times a second, 30 Hz, will stretch quite a bit longer and need more power.

[BallinWithNash]

Yea, no one has answered the original question and everybody keeps avoiding it ... and here I thought I could get a simple answer now we are going on 7 pages and haven't got much of anything to show ... I really don't personally care what the answer is I just what the correct answer because if I knew it I wouldn't have posted this topic. So back to the question does it take more power to produce a lower frequency versus a high frequency?

[BallinWithNash]

And where in the hell is pixy??? he should have been in this argument by now.

[audio amateur]

AA, you either have reading comp issues or didn't bother reading the articles completely. They clearly talk about the power reduction as frequency goes up and increase as frequency goes down.

Then perhaps it would help if you quoted the part you are refering to.

[Mr Peabody]

Check my earlier posts, I did recap the part I wanted to emphasize and even used some caps. This was only in one post where I left a link.

[Mr Peabody]

Here's a link from Axiom's website on bi-wiring & amping. This isn't perfect but notice where they mention the woofer will draw more current than the tweeter, more current equates to more power. Also, toward the end when talking about bi-amping they mention large amps for woofers and smaller amps for tweeters, no mention is a sensitivity factor.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/tips_biwir..._biamping.html

This still leaves us asking why but I found the answer stay tuned.