Speaker cable blind listening tests

[hermanv]

......But people who spend their time sitting around listening to wires are a sad bunch indeed. The goal is listening to MUSIC, people, not wires!.

Amazingly enough, you are correct. I tried this and found the wires actually made no sound at all, right up to the point where I pressed he "play" button on my CD player.

Clearly the skeptics were correct all along; wires make no sound. Maybe this explains the whole cable debate, those who can't hear the effect of different cables, forgot to press "play"?

[musicoverall]

It's a pity he hasn't had the chance to hear a similar system to his using 20.1s driven by Joule Electra OTL amps using Valhalla throughout as I have. He might be surprised!

rw

But then he might not be able to retire a millionaire! But he'd have sonic wealth beyond belief!

[musicoverall]

Amazingly enough, you are correct. I tried this and found the wires actually made no sound at all, right up to the point where I pressed he "play" button on my CD player.

Clearly the skeptics were correct all along; wires make no sound. Maybe this explains the whole cable debate, those who can't hear the effect of different cables, forgot to press "play"?

I think it's more a need to turn off their "Bias" button and turn on their "listening" button.

[Mash]

Mr. E-Stat, Mr. Futterman once told me that the original Futterman OTL design was NEVER intended to be used with speakers of less than an 8-ohm impedance. Back in the old days you either used 8-ohm impedance Tympani or you converted 4-ohm impedance Tympani to 16-ohm impedance Tympani. All contemporary Magnepan speakers including the 20.1 are 4-ohm impedance, so perhaps the Joule Electra OTL amps are a Futterman-OTL type of amplifier redesigned to permit use with 4-ohm impedance speakers. But I am mystified as to WHY you feel that I should be interested in 20.1s driven by Joule Electra OTL amps using Valhalla throughout given that my main system can already reproduce the piano just as I hear live pianos in recitals. Really, would your 20.1s driven by Joule Electra OTL amps using Valhalla throughout sound MORE real than do real pianos? You have lost me with your philosophical approach.

Rewiring a Magnepan to increased impedance is likely beyond the skill set of most audiophiles, or perhaps audio market realities simply require an amp that will work with 4-ohm speakers. I have rewired Tympani and I also have successfully fixed a tube amp. Have you ever fixed an ailing tube amp, Mr. E-Stat?

All this anguish about wires suggests that people posting here spend a lot of money on wires! Well, I probably spent less than they typically spend on their wires to update my bedroom sound system. I replaced the Musical Fidelity A2 with a new Jolida 302B and I added a 3-week-old C-J preamp to control everything and facilitate the optimum connection of a Velodyne Servo-15 sub. The bedroom system also has a video upscaler for DVD’s and another video upscaler for VCR tapes. Now those Magnepans really sing, and “The Phantom of the Opera” sounds as great as it looks on the HDTV. I am sure this is a far greater “bang for the bucks” than those fancy wires could ever offer.

I must leave you gentlemen to debate the "sound" of one wire versus the "sound" of another wire while you will probably also argue against attending piano recitals. Piano recitals are where you might learn how a REAL piano actually sounds, but I am sure you will argue that there will be different pianos at different recitals (well, DUH!), different piano players at different recitals (well, DOUBLE DUH!), different venue acoustics, ad nauseam. I suspect that “wire listeners” as a group could not trouble-shoot a tube amp without electrocuting themselves, and that “wire listeners” most likely could not even rewire a 4-ohm Tympani speaker to be a 16 ohm Tympani speaker! The posted “little jokes and jibes” read as though they come from rather young people who are still living with mom and dad and do not yet sense the need to be prudent with money.

[E-Stat]

Mr. E-Stat, Mr. Futterman once told me that the original Futterman OTL design was NEVER intended to be used with speakers of less than an 8-ohm impedance.

Ok.

...so perhaps the Joule Electra OTL amps are a Futterman-OTL type of amplifier redesigned to permit use with 4-ohm impedance speakers.

While they are OTL, Jud Barber uses the Russian 6C33 outputs which were unknown to the Western world at the time. I met him and his charming wife over dinner in Atlanta with John Cooledge and Harry Pearson. Jud is quite aware of HP's use of the evaluation pair of Rite of Passages with 20.1s (and also with the Nola Grand Reference) and John's use of his Joule Electra amps with his sub 8 ohm Avalons.

Joule Electra

But I am mystified as to WHY you feel that I should be interested in 20.1s driven by Joule Electra OTL amps using Valhalla throughout given that my main system can already reproduce the piano just as I hear live pianos in recitals.

As good as the T-1Us, T-1Cs, T-1Ds, and T-IIIs were that I've heard, none of them were as faithful to the live event IMHO as the 20.1. Don't get me wrong - I fell in love with Magneplanars when I first heard T-1Us back in '74. The memory is so clear, I can tell you exactly what was playing. While not one of my favorites, "Kodachrome" by Paul Simon sounded completely unlike I had ever heard a box speaker sound. I have been a planar enthusiast ever since. A year later, I bought a pair of MG-IIs before later moving on to full range electrostats. (It was JWC's Dayton-Wrights that first swayed me). Take the timbral accuracy and realistic soundstage size of Maggies and couple that with the utter coherency of a single driver. Back to Maggies, I truly believe that Jim Winey has not simply rested on his laurels over the past three decades. One of these days I'd really like to take HP up on his offer to get me a tour through their plant as I have business in the Minneapolis area on a regular basis.

Really, would your 20.1s driven by Joule Electra OTL amps using Valhalla throughout sound MORE real than do real pianos?

The 20.1s I heard were at Seacliff and not mine. They were, however, my second choice in a recent speaker replacement behind the Sound Lab U-1s. Evidently, we have different points of reference as to what constitutes the sound of a live piano. I am quite familiar with the sound of my wife playing her baby grand in the living room.

Rewiring a Magnepan to increased impedance is likely beyond the skill set of most audiophiles, or perhaps audio market realities simply require an amp that will work with 4-ohm speakers.

For that reason, there are Magneplanar / OTL enthusiasts who use the Zero Autoformer to improve the impedance match. Usually, I see those used with Atmasphere amps.

Have you ever fixed an ailing tube amp, Mr. E-Stat?

Well, I fixed an old The Fisher mono amp that ate a bias resistor about thirty years ago. Wish I had never sold those. Around '78, I updated some components on my Acoustat X direct drive tube amps. Fortunately since then I have not had trouble with either my Audio Research nor VTL amps.

I am sure this is a far greater “bang for the bucks” than those fancy wires could ever offer.

Sounds like a nice system. Indeed, the law of diminishing returns is found with many pursuits. Having said that, even the Double New Advents in my vintage system have benefitted from cable upgrades. Not Valhallas though :^)

I must leave you gentlemen to debate the "sound" of one wire versus the "sound" of another wire while you will probably also argue against attending piano recitals.

You must be talking about someone else! Who doesn't love hearing the Vince Guaraldi Peanuts music? I thoroughly enjoy hearing solo piano ranging from New Age artists like Liz Story (my wife and I used "Wedding Rain" in ours 20 years ago) and George Winston (I have his tribute album to Guaraldi) to many classical composers. I'm rather partial to Prokofiev Concertos - either by Askenazy or Beroff. If you seek true reproduction of the live event, whatever that may be, it has been my experience that the best cables offer a degree of clarity and focus not found otherwise.

I suspect that “wire listeners” as a group could not trouble-shoot a tube amp without electrocuting themselves, and that “wire listeners” most likely could not even rewire a 4-ohm Tympani speaker to be a 16 ohm Tympani speaker!

I'm not sure a get the connection between the ability to perform electronic repair and the ability to perceive musical reproduction. Likewise, do you think that Michael Schumacher could repair the engine in his F1 Ferrari 248?

rw

[Geoffcin]

I'm not sure a get the connection between the ability to perform electronic repair and the ability to perceive musical reproduction. Likewise, do you think that Michael Schumacher could repair the engine in his F1 Ferrari 248?

rw

He's of the opinion that the final solution to audio resides in his house, and no futher upgrade is possible. No amount of logic could sway him otherwise. Most of the posts of his that I've read are also quite patronizing. Perhaps he should change his screen name to
"sour mash" ;o)

[E-Stat]

I will nevertheless point out fallacies with the stereotype if not for him, others.

He's of the opinion that the final solution to audio resides in his house, and no futher upgrade is possible.

I find it interesting to contrast the opinions of otherwise similar minded posters in the perception of how close we are to achieving the "live experience". I gather by his post, that his system has already achieved that. Skeptic/Soundmind, however, is of a different opinion completely.

"...and the conductor adjusts his tempo to tune his performance to the hall, you will NEVER get anything like that sound out of two boxes or panels in your living room. Reproducing that sound is far beyond the current state of the art. Anyone who disagrees obviously hasn't heard it and what is lost with even the best recordings and equipment we have, are qualities indespensible for the full enjoyment and understanding of this music."

I find the answer between the two extremes.

rw

[musicoverall]

I will nevertheless point out fallacies with the stereotype if not for him, others.


I find it interesting to contrast the opinions of otherwise similar minded posters in the perception of how close we are to achieving the "live experience". I gather by his post, that his system has already achieved that. Skeptic/Soundmind, however, is of a different opinion completely.

"...and the conductor adjusts his tempo to tune his performance to the hall, you will NEVER get anything like that sound out of two boxes or panels in your living room. Reproducing that sound is far beyond the current state of the art. Anyone who disagrees obviously hasn't heard it and what is lost with even the best recordings and equipment we have, are qualities indespensible for the full enjoyment and understanding of this music."

I find the answer between the two extremes.

rw

Still, you are to be commended for being the bastion of seemingly infinite patience that you are. I read Mash's post and wondered if he'd recently found a 100-lb bag of illogical reasoning on sale at his local supermarket! Yikes!

The sound of live music... well, as much as my system has improved in that regard over the last several years, I still have a long way to go. However, there are times when I'd swear I had been transported to the venue and those times are hair-raising indeed. Even so, I'd pass a DBT between live piano and anyone's audio system with flying colors.

[hermanv]

Most recordings will never sound like live music. They are recordered with as many microphones (or more) are there are musicians, the instrumens are recorded close miked (have you listened to a saxaphone with your ear inside the bell?) and then mixed, blended and panned into position on the final cut. Even ambience mikes are mixed into the end result to give dimension to the music but it's not real.

This isn't necessarily bad, but it isn't live music either. The comparison is not really germaine.

I have listened to a great number of cables, on some it is easy to identify a given signature, they have a sound or coloration. Others are just plain better but it is very difficult to express what exacty it is that is better about them. The whole process of listening to an artist or a system is largely a subjective one.

For me, fine cables help the experience, I encourange others to test cables in their system to see if they will help. If a given cable doesn't help their system, that is not evidence that it doesn't help mine.

Many audiophiles recognize that carefully designed equipment using exotic components sounds better than the mass market equipment, we pay dearly for the difference. After all the difference beteween the exotic, expensive, name brand, audiophile amplifier and that mass market substitute is mostly details and materials quality. Why is it that hard to believe that details and materials quality in a cable can affect the sound quality?

A Chinese mass market resistor (about $0.003 in volume, made with some deposited carbon on a ceramic substrate) and a Vishay S102 ($11.95 for one, made with ultra pure aluminum foil on a glass substrate) measure the same on my Ohmmeter. My ears disagree with my Ohmmeter, they say that they are not the same, when used in an electronic circuit, the Vishay sounds better.

[musicoverall]

If a given cable doesn't help their system, that is not evidence that it doesn't help mine.
.

And vice versa. There are some folks who read reviews and assume that the magic cable someone is writing about will automatically transform their own systems. That may work on rare occasions but there is no substitute for a personal audition. I, too, encourage people to give cables a try once they've taken care of business in other areas of their system such as electronics, speakers, room acoustics, etc.

[Critofur]

After all these arguments, almost inevitably, the most significantly flawed component of almost all systems will be the speakers. There are no speakers in the world that can come close, not even within an order of magnitude I would guess, to the accuracy that even a moderately cheap amp and 16 gauge lamp cord can.

So if your speakers are contributing 1% - 5% (or more) innacuracy then what is the point of changing an amp / cable which is only adding .01% - .05% innacuracy to the mix?

Of course, we do want our amp to have sufficient power and dynamic range to avoid frequent clipping and to stay and low THD levels but beyond that, the returns are diminishing.

Many years ago I had cheap bookshelf 2-way speakers and a cheap Dyna tube amp. I really enjoyed listening to music on that system, far more than I do today on much more expensive systems. I wish I could have that experience again.

[accastil]

very nicely said.

[accastil]

Most recordings will never sound like live music. They are recordered with as many microphones (or more) are there are musicians, the instrumens are recorded close miked (have you listened to a saxaphone with your ear inside the bell?) and then mixed, blended and panned into position on the final cut. Even ambience mikes are mixed into the end result to give dimension to the music but it's not real.

This isn't necessarily bad, but it isn't live music either. The comparison is not really germaine.

I have listened to a great number of cables, on some it is easy to identify a given signature, they have a sound or coloration. Others are just plain better but it is very difficult to express what exacty it is that is better about them. The whole process of listening to an artist or a system is largely a subjective one.

For me, fine cables help the experience, I encourange others to test cables in their system to see if they will help. If a given cable doesn't help their system, that is not evidence that it doesn't help mine.

Many audiophiles recognize that carefully designed equipment using exotic components sounds better than the mass market equipment, we pay dearly for the difference. After all the difference beteween the exotic, expensive, name brand, audiophile amplifier and that mass market substitute is mostly details and materials quality. Why is it that hard to believe that details and materials quality in a cable can affect the sound quality?

A Chinese mass market resistor (about $0.003 in volume, made with some deposited carbon on a ceramic substrate) and a Vishay S102 ($11.95 for one, made with ultra pure aluminum foil on a glass substrate) measure the same on my Ohmmeter. My ears disagree with my Ohmmeter, they say that they are not the same, when used in an electronic circuit, the Vishay sounds better.

very nicely said

[musicoverall]

After all these arguments, almost inevitably, the most significantly flawed component of almost all systems will be the speakers. There are no speakers in the world that can come close, not even within an order of magnitude I would guess, to the accuracy that even a moderately cheap amp and 16 gauge lamp cord can.

So if your speakers are contributing 1% - 5% (or more) innacuracy then what is the point of changing an amp / cable which is only adding .01% - .05% innacuracy to the mix?

Of course, we do want our amp to have sufficient power and dynamic range to avoid frequent clipping and to stay and low THD levels but beyond that, the returns are diminishing.

Many years ago I had cheap bookshelf 2-way speakers and a cheap Dyna tube amp. I really enjoyed listening to music on that system, far more than I do today on much more expensive systems. I wish I could have that experience again.

I'd rather not use the term "innaccuracies" and neither will I attempt to assign a percentage to various components as to their influence on the sound. But to answer your question, why would you spend $10,000 more on speakers when you can get the sound you're looking for with a $1000 cable upgrade?

I auditioned several speakers before deciding on the ones I purchased. An appreciable step up would have been very, very expensive. At any rate, the speakers I purchased exhibited the type of sound I wanted and was extremely close to the mental sonic image I have of music. The cables were the tweak that brought it all together. Cables are what one would upgrade when he's taken care of everything else. The amps I already had when I bought the speakers work fine but if I decide to upgrade, I'll spend less than if I attempt to upgrade the speakers.

The bottom line is that while I have a rudimentary understanding of measurements, I do review them but the final analysis is done by listening. Excellent specs aren't very meaningful if the result is less than desirable sound.

[buffle]

Most recordings will never sound like live music. They are recordered with as many microphones (or more) are there are musicians, the instrumens are recorded close miked (have you listened to a saxaphone with your ear inside the bell?) and then mixed, blended and panned into position on the final cut. Even ambience mikes are mixed into the end result to give dimension to the music but it's not real.

This isn't necessarily bad, but it isn't live music either. The comparison is not really germaine.

I have listened to a great number of cables, on some it is easy to identify a given signature, they have a sound or coloration. Others are just plain better but it is very difficult to express what exacty it is that is better about them. The whole process of listening to an artist or a system is largely a subjective one.

For me, fine cables help the experience, I encourange others to test cables in their system to see if they will help. If a given cable doesn't help their system, that is not evidence that it doesn't help mine.

Many audiophiles recognize that carefully designed equipment using exotic components sounds better than the mass market equipment, we pay dearly for the difference. After all the difference beteween the exotic, expensive, name brand, audiophile amplifier and that mass market substitute is mostly details and materials quality. Why is it that hard to believe that details and materials quality in a cable can affect the sound quality?

A Chinese mass market resistor (about $0.003 in volume, made with some deposited carbon on a ceramic substrate) and a Vishay S102 ($11.95 for one, made with ultra pure aluminum foil on a glass substrate) measure the same on my Ohmmeter. My ears disagree with my Ohmmeter, they say that they are not the same, when used in an electronic circuit, the Vishay sounds better.

If there is a difference, and you cannot measure it, then you are using the wrong instrument to test it.

In the case of the resistors, an ohmmeter can only tell you part of the story. Resistors are often constructed in a circular wound pattern. This forms an inductor of low value. This inductance must be taken into account. Another factor is the current capacity of the resistor (power rating). If it gets hot then the ohmage may change with temperature. Another test to try might be to try passing varying audio frequencies through the resistor at the level they will be working with and compare input signal to output signal (distortion) on an accurate oscilloscope. If all these factors were comparable, then there would be absolutely no way that there could be a discernable difference. (for those that disagree, could I sell you some sound improving crystals or a prayer book - you will here an important improvent in the 'humidity' of the sound. (just jokes)).

I'll say it again, if there is a genuine difference, and you are not able to measure it, you are simply using the wrong test instrument.

[FLZapped]

Wow, boy, sure hard to argue with that. One can only hope you joined the school debating team. With such stunning repartee, with such carefully constructed and considered logic you must have been devastating to the opposition.

Assertions need to be proven, several were made, they need to be verified. No discussion is needed.

I've heard it said that ignorance is bliss; in that case one might fear you're getting too close to comatose (that might explain the yawn).

A a page out of Jon Risch. No evidence, therfore, resort to ad hominem attacks.

So what do you think? Tens of thousands of people have bought expensive cables and all of them are fools?

Only the one's who bought them believing they would make an audible difference over less expensive like cables.

Every time someone does in fact prove that cables have a sound of their own,

Please post said proof.

The mathmatical proof for the 4 color map theory took 600 years to be developed, but anyone could easily prove by experimentation that 4 colors always worked.

And electrical throey didn't get proven out over nght either.....big deal.

Anyone with a decent system can easily hear differences in 2 cables; one generic copper, Radio Shack style and the other, one of the sneered at high price models. The really amazing thing is that the difference will be there, whether you can explain it or not.

Just listen, it's not that hard.

Post said proof.

-Bruce

[FLZapped]

Not to mention trolling.

Oh please, you can be more creative than that.

My advice to newbies is to listen for themselves. If that's a claim, I'm guilty.

Claim, no. So no argument there.

And of course my final point was that I couldn't possibly be expected to solve your dilemma of skepticism.

If you believe you heard a difference, that's one thing, but to say there was a difference, is quite another. Perhaps what you need is a change in the approach to you wording.

-Bruce

[audio amateur]

You do realise the last post on this thread was written 2 years ago?

[musicoverall]

You do realise the last post on this thread was written 2 years ago?

Apparently, even though I don't spend much time here anymore, my posts live on in infamy!

[musicoverall]

If you believe you heard a difference, that's one thing, but to say there was a difference, is quite another. Perhaps what you need is a change in the approach to you wording.

-Bruce

I tested and heard a difference. If there are no differences and the test showed there were, what does that say about the test (single blind)?

I can't possibly say that something either "is" or " is not". I hear differences sometimes between components. Others do as well. Let's take the Nordost Valhalla speaker cable. Either they exhibit different sonic characteristics that are audible OR there are hundreds of people sharing an identical delusion. I would guess that whereas you and I find one of those situations unthinkable, it's probably the opposite.