Speaker cable blind listening tests

[hermanv]

......But people who spend their time sitting around listening to wires are a sad bunch indeed. The goal is listening to MUSIC, people, not wires!.

Amazingly enough, you are correct. I tried this and found the wires actually made no sound at all, right up to the point where I pressed he "play" button on my CD player.

Clearly the skeptics were correct all along; wires make no sound. Maybe this explains the whole cable debate, those who can't hear the effect of different cables, forgot to press "play"?

[musicoverall]

Amazingly enough, you are correct. I tried this and found the wires actually made no sound at all, right up to the point where I pressed he "play" button on my CD player.

Clearly the skeptics were correct all along; wires make no sound. Maybe this explains the whole cable debate, those who can't hear the effect of different cables, forgot to press "play"?

I think it's more a need to turn off their "Bias" button and turn on their "listening" button.

[Mash]

Mr. E-Stat, Mr. Futterman once told me that the original Futterman OTL design was NEVER intended to be used with speakers of less than an 8-ohm impedance. Back in the old days you either used 8-ohm impedance Tympani or you converted 4-ohm impedance Tympani to 16-ohm impedance Tympani. All contemporary Magnepan speakers including the 20.1 are 4-ohm impedance, so perhaps the Joule Electra OTL amps are a Futterman-OTL type of amplifier redesigned to permit use with 4-ohm impedance speakers. But I am mystified as to WHY you feel that I should be interested in 20.1s driven by Joule Electra OTL amps using Valhalla throughout given that my main system can already reproduce the piano just as I hear live pianos in recitals. Really, would your 20.1s driven by Joule Electra OTL amps using Valhalla throughout sound MORE real than do real pianos? You have lost me with your philosophical approach.

Rewiring a Magnepan to increased impedance is likely beyond the skill set of most audiophiles, or perhaps audio market realities simply require an amp that will work with 4-ohm speakers. I have rewired Tympani and I also have successfully fixed a tube amp. Have you ever fixed an ailing tube amp, Mr. E-Stat?

All this anguish about wires suggests that people posting here spend a lot of money on wires! Well, I probably spent less than they typically spend on their wires to update my bedroom sound system. I replaced the Musical Fidelity A2 with a new Jolida 302B and I added a 3-week-old C-J preamp to control everything and facilitate the optimum connection of a Velodyne Servo-15 sub. The bedroom system also has a video upscaler for DVD’s and another video upscaler for VCR tapes. Now those Magnepans really sing, and “The Phantom of the Opera” sounds as great as it looks on the HDTV. I am sure this is a far greater “bang for the bucks” than those fancy wires could ever offer.

I must leave you gentlemen to debate the "sound" of one wire versus the "sound" of another wire while you will probably also argue against attending piano recitals. Piano recitals are where you might learn how a REAL piano actually sounds, but I am sure you will argue that there will be different pianos at different recitals (well, DUH!), different piano players at different recitals (well, DOUBLE DUH!), different venue acoustics, ad nauseam. I suspect that “wire listeners” as a group could not trouble-shoot a tube amp without electrocuting themselves, and that “wire listeners” most likely could not even rewire a 4-ohm Tympani speaker to be a 16 ohm Tympani speaker! The posted “little jokes and jibes” read as though they come from rather young people who are still living with mom and dad and do not yet sense the need to be prudent with money.

[E-Stat]

Mr. E-Stat, Mr. Futterman once told me that the original Futterman OTL design was NEVER intended to be used with speakers of less than an 8-ohm impedance.

Ok.

...so perhaps the Joule Electra OTL amps are a Futterman-OTL type of amplifier redesigned to permit use with 4-ohm impedance speakers.

While they are OTL, Jud Barber uses the Russian 6C33 outputs which were unknown to the Western world at the time. I met him and his charming wife over dinner in Atlanta with John Cooledge and Harry Pearson. Jud is quite aware of HP's use of the evaluation pair of Rite of Passages with 20.1s (and also with the Nola Grand Reference) and John's use of his Joule Electra amps with his sub 8 ohm Avalons.

Joule Electra

But I am mystified as to WHY you feel that I should be interested in 20.1s driven by Joule Electra OTL amps using Valhalla throughout given that my main system can already reproduce the piano just as I hear live pianos in recitals.

As good as the T-1Us, T-1Cs, T-1Ds, and T-IIIs were that I've heard, none of them were as faithful to the live event IMHO as the 20.1. Don't get me wrong - I fell in love with Magneplanars when I first heard T-1Us back in '74. The memory is so clear, I can tell you exactly what was playing. While not one of my favorites, "Kodachrome" by Paul Simon sounded completely unlike I had ever heard a box speaker sound. I have been a planar enthusiast ever since. A year later, I bought a pair of MG-IIs before later moving on to full range electrostats. (It was JWC's Dayton-Wrights that first swayed me). Take the timbral accuracy and realistic soundstage size of Maggies and couple that with the utter coherency of a single driver. Back to Maggies, I truly believe that Jim Winey has not simply rested on his laurels over the past three decades. One of these days I'd really like to take HP up on his offer to get me a tour through their plant as I have business in the Minneapolis area on a regular basis.

Really, would your 20.1s driven by Joule Electra OTL amps using Valhalla throughout sound MORE real than do real pianos?

The 20.1s I heard were at Seacliff and not mine. They were, however, my second choice in a recent speaker replacement behind the Sound Lab U-1s. Evidently, we have different points of reference as to what constitutes the sound of a live piano. I am quite familiar with the sound of my wife playing her baby grand in the living room.

Rewiring a Magnepan to increased impedance is likely beyond the skill set of most audiophiles, or perhaps audio market realities simply require an amp that will work with 4-ohm speakers.

For that reason, there are Magneplanar / OTL enthusiasts who use the Zero Autoformer to improve the impedance match. Usually, I see those used with Atmasphere amps.

Have you ever fixed an ailing tube amp, Mr. E-Stat?

Well, I fixed an old The Fisher mono amp that ate a bias resistor about thirty years ago. Wish I had never sold those. Around '78, I updated some components on my Acoustat X direct drive tube amps. Fortunately since then I have not had trouble with either my Audio Research nor VTL amps.

I am sure this is a far greater “bang for the bucks” than those fancy wires could ever offer.

Sounds like a nice system. Indeed, the law of diminishing returns is found with many pursuits. Having said that, even the Double New Advents in my vintage system have benefitted from cable upgrades. Not Valhallas though :^)

I must leave you gentlemen to debate the "sound" of one wire versus the "sound" of another wire while you will probably also argue against attending piano recitals.

You must be talking about someone else! Who doesn't love hearing the Vince Guaraldi Peanuts music? I thoroughly enjoy hearing solo piano ranging from New Age artists like Liz Story (my wife and I used "Wedding Rain" in ours 20 years ago) and George Winston (I have his tribute album to Guaraldi) to many classical composers. I'm rather partial to Prokofiev Concertos - either by Askenazy or Beroff. If you seek true reproduction of the live event, whatever that may be, it has been my experience that the best cables offer a degree of clarity and focus not found otherwise.

I suspect that “wire listeners” as a group could not trouble-shoot a tube amp without electrocuting themselves, and that “wire listeners” most likely could not even rewire a 4-ohm Tympani speaker to be a 16 ohm Tympani speaker!

I'm not sure a get the connection between the ability to perform electronic repair and the ability to perceive musical reproduction. Likewise, do you think that Michael Schumacher could repair the engine in his F1 Ferrari 248?

rw

[Geoffcin]

I'm not sure a get the connection between the ability to perform electronic repair and the ability to perceive musical reproduction. Likewise, do you think that Michael Schumacher could repair the engine in his F1 Ferrari 248?

rw

He's of the opinion that the final solution to audio resides in his house, and no futher upgrade is possible. No amount of logic could sway him otherwise. Most of the posts of his that I've read are also quite patronizing. Perhaps he should change his screen name to
"sour mash" ;o)

[E-Stat]

I will nevertheless point out fallacies with the stereotype if not for him, others.

He's of the opinion that the final solution to audio resides in his house, and no futher upgrade is possible.

I find it interesting to contrast the opinions of otherwise similar minded posters in the perception of how close we are to achieving the "live experience". I gather by his post, that his system has already achieved that. Skeptic/Soundmind, however, is of a different opinion completely.

"...and the conductor adjusts his tempo to tune his performance to the hall, you will NEVER get anything like that sound out of two boxes or panels in your living room. Reproducing that sound is far beyond the current state of the art. Anyone who disagrees obviously hasn't heard it and what is lost with even the best recordings and equipment we have, are qualities indespensible for the full enjoyment and understanding of this music."

I find the answer between the two extremes.

rw

[musicoverall]

I will nevertheless point out fallacies with the stereotype if not for him, others.


I find it interesting to contrast the opinions of otherwise similar minded posters in the perception of how close we are to achieving the "live experience". I gather by his post, that his system has already achieved that. Skeptic/Soundmind, however, is of a different opinion completely.

"...and the conductor adjusts his tempo to tune his performance to the hall, you will NEVER get anything like that sound out of two boxes or panels in your living room. Reproducing that sound is far beyond the current state of the art. Anyone who disagrees obviously hasn't heard it and what is lost with even the best recordings and equipment we have, are qualities indespensible for the full enjoyment and understanding of this music."

I find the answer between the two extremes.

rw

Still, you are to be commended for being the bastion of seemingly infinite patience that you are. I read Mash's post and wondered if he'd recently found a 100-lb bag of illogical reasoning on sale at his local supermarket! Yikes!

The sound of live music... well, as much as my system has improved in that regard over the last several years, I still have a long way to go. However, there are times when I'd swear I had been transported to the venue and those times are hair-raising indeed. Even so, I'd pass a DBT between live piano and anyone's audio system with flying colors.