hermanv - regarding: "Speaker cable blind listening tests"

[FLZapped]

That's the part that dooms audio DBT's, IMHO.

Why?

I seriously doubt I would have passed mine using rapid switching.

Why?

Most people need to listen long term - despite any comments of the "the new cable blew me away immediately" variety. At least that's what I have found.

We're not talking a musical review, we're talking about discovering differences between two samples.

-Bruce

[musicoverall]

Because hearing doesn't work like vision (for me, anyway). Although I still think it would be interesting to show someone a picture of a large blue dot and then replace it with a picture of another, slightly different blue dot to determine how accurately they could tell the difference. I read once where there are 32 different shades of color in cigar tobacco wrappers. The ones who can determine them all are the cigar makers themselves and few others. Experience would seem to reign supreme. Subtlety does not mean non-existent.

Cable differences are subtle and my ears need time to get used to their sonic signature. Even so, I didn't score perfectly but I would have done less well with rapid switching. Unfortunately, the rapid switching so common in the area of testing audio components (not that I can find much evidence of testing!) will usually give the null result, thereby adding fuel to the objectivists fire that "it all sounds the same". Too bad. The question of whether cables can sound different has been answered. The two remaining questions are "why do they sound different" and "are the differences noticeable enough to matter to the listener".

[FLZapped]

(snip all that was totally irrelavent.)

Cable differences are subtle and my ears need time to get used to their sonic signature. Even so, I didn't score perfectly but I would have done less well with rapid switching.

How do you know?

Unfortunately, the rapid switching so common in the area of testing audio components (not that I can find much evidence of testing!) will usually give the null result, thereby adding fuel to the objectivists fire that "it all sounds the same".

Sorry, but this is just not true, which is why there is so much testing using such a method. To make sure we are on the same page, when I say rapid switch, I mean two devices switched by a mechanical method - as opposed to someone plugging and unplugging cables.

I have also participated in numerous tests and I can assure you, the results were anything but null.....we weren't testing cables, but where there were differences, they stuck out like a sore thumb using rapid switching. Listening to each device seperately would have certainly yielded more nulls.

-Bruce

[Feanor]

How do you know?

Sorry, but this is just not true, which is why there is so much testing using such a method. To make sure we are on the same page, when I say rapid switch, I mean two devices switched by a mechanical method - as opposed to someone plugging and unplugging cables.

I have also participated in numerous tests and I can assure you, the results were anything but null.....we weren't testing cables, but where there were differences, they stuck out like a sore thumb using rapid switching. Listening to each device seperately would have certainly yielded more nulls.

-Bruce

I'm not contradiction the need for long term listening; this is especially important form establishing which sound is "better" (or a least preferable). However my experience is also that anything I hear in the long term, I can also hear in the short.

But though the switching might be quick, pinpointing the specific differences can take a long time: e.g. once I spent 3 hours listening to segments no longer than 5 minutes and some as short as 20 seconds before I could articulate the differences; (granted, this was using the slower cable swapping method).

[musicoverall]

I'm not contradiction the need for long term listening; this is especially important form establishing which sound is "better" (or a least preferable). However my experience is also that anything I hear in the long term, I can also hear in the short.

But though the switching might be quick, pinpointing the specific differences can take a long time: e.g. once I spent 3 hours listening to segments no longer than 5 minutes and some as short as 20 seconds before I could articulate the differences; (granted, this was using the slower cable swapping method).

Not usually the case for me. When someone swaps a cable in my presence, they all immediately applaud the change while I'm sitting there in a fog until I have a chance to focus better.

Ahhh... I think we've found the culprit! It's not the test, it's my attention/focus!

I did notice that the differences I found sighted were the same ones I found blind but during the blind tests, the differences were much closer to negligible.

[Feanor]

Not usually the case for me. When someone swaps a cable in my presence, they all immediately applaud the change while I'm sitting there in a fog until I have a chance to focus better.

Ahhh... I think we've found the culprit! It's not the test, it's my attention/focus!

I did notice that the differences I found sighted were the same ones I found blind but during the blind tests, the differences were much closer to negligible.

Many supposed changes are inaudible to me; also, some I can just barely hear are irrelevant. This just isn't in the true, audiophile spirit. To the true audiophile all system changes make a difference, and all differences are significant. (These differences may be real or imagined, but that doesn't matter.)

But I can't be too judgemental. My hearing doesn't go beyond 10-11 kHz so others might hear what I do not.

[musicoverall]

Many supposed changes are inaudible to me; also, some I can just barely hear are irrelevant. This just isn't in the true, audiophile spirit. To the true audiophile all system changes make a difference, and all differences are significant. (These differences may be real or imagined, but that doesn't matter.)

But I can't be too judgemental. My hearing doesn't go beyond 10-11 kHz so others might hear what I do not.

No problem there. No one can possibly say what is or isn't audible for someone else, try as they might.

I've found even the significant differences need to be judged as to value. Some people have no problem spending $2000 for a very minor improvement (a significant change might also be minor in the overall context). That's ok with me but I prefer to spend the bulk of my disposable income on music.

[musicoverall]

How do you know?



Sorry, but this is just not true, which is why there is so much testing using such a method. To make sure we are on the same page, when I say rapid switch, I mean two devices switched by a mechanical method - as opposed to someone plugging and unplugging cables.

I have also participated in numerous tests and I can assure you, the results were anything but null.....we weren't testing cables, but where there were differences, they stuck out like a sore thumb using rapid switching. Listening to each device seperately would have certainly yielded more nulls.

-Bruce

Are any of these tests published? Not necessarily the ones you've been involved with but any? I searched awhile back and couldn't really find much on the 'net. The few DBT's I found mostly showed null results and the ones that showed differences were the obvious ones (extremely long or thin guage cables, speakers, etc).

[FLZapped]

Are any of these tests published? Not necessarily the ones you've been involved with but any? I searched awhile back and couldn't really find much on the 'net. The few DBT's I found mostly showed null results and the ones that showed differences were the obvious ones (extremely long or thin guage cables, speakers, etc).

A lot of what is published is through professional societies who charge a fee for copies of the results. You might be able to find someone who is a member and can get them as they have already paid their dues (membership fee )......

Null results are still results. Just that a relaible difference could not be found and as you say, the obvious one's show that the process works.

-Bruce