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  1. #1
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    Unhappy Amp heats up and shuts off - Help!!

    Hello Friends - I know I keep asking these rather basic questions but thats how i would come to par with you guys.

    I have this Yamaha AX-596 Integrated Stereo Amp rated at 100 w/c @ 8 ohms. This is being used to power a pair of Sonodyne Floorstanders - Sonus 1601 - which are rated at 80 Watts @ 4 ohms and a Sonodyne subwoofer - Roarr 2 - rated at 100 Watts @ 4 Ohms.

    When ever i push up the volume of the amp to anywhere beyond 40% mark on the volume control - its protection circuitry just cuts in and pushes it to stand by mode. I assume this should be due to overheating or overloading - as per the amp literature.

    Could you please help me with this one and tell me why does my amp shut down on its own at such puny volume? I hoped it would give me a couple of shattered window panes and a perforated ear drum - instead its giving me a shattered heart !

    And there is this added problem - when i play my pioneer DVD player - DV366 - the sound output is reasonable - but when I direct my Satellite radio's output to the amp - thru the tuner connectors - the volume output is 60 - 70% less than the DVD output. What could be the reason for this?

  2. #2
    My custom user title This Guy's Avatar
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    thats easy

    your amp only handles 8 ohm loads, and here you're giving it two 4 ohm speakers that may go down to even 1 ohm, and im not sure how your powering the subwoofer (passive or active)? But my assumption is that the amp can't handle this speaker load and you need a better amp that can handle low impediance speakers.

    -Joey

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    Forum Regular karl k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msrance
    Hello Friends - I know I keep asking these rather basic questions but thats how i would come to par with you guys.

    I have this Yamaha AX-596 Integrated Stereo Amp rated at 100 w/c @ 8 ohms. This is being used to power a pair of Sonodyne Floorstanders - Sonus 1601 - which are rated at 80 Watts @ 4 ohms and a Sonodyne subwoofer - Roarr 2 - rated at 100 Watts @ 4 Ohms.

    When ever i push up the volume of the amp to anywhere beyond 40% mark on the volume control - its protection circuitry just cuts in and pushes it to stand by mode. I assume this should be due to overheating or overloading - as per the amp literature.

    Could you please help me with this one and tell me why does my amp shut down on its own at such puny volume? I hoped it would give me a couple of shattered window panes and a perforated ear drum - instead its giving me a shattered heart !

    And there is this added problem - when i play my pioneer DVD player - DV366 - the sound output is reasonable - but when I direct my Satellite radio's output to the amp - thru the tuner connectors - the volume output is 60 - 70% less than the DVD output. What could be the reason for this?
    Guy is right about the amp and the speakers. I find it odd that of the 2 floorstanders available from Sonus, you would pick the one that was 4ohm. Must have been a price thing. Well, you'll have to get a "high current" amp to run those babies... something in a Harmon receiver or equivilent. Must be 4ohm(or much higher wattage capacity at 8ohm) though or you'll have the same prob.

    About the mismatch between the sat and the DVD... it may help if the DVD player has it's own output gain control to turn it down to more closely match your sat radio. In doing so, your amp should be able to be turned up but be warned, you will not get any more volume out of the system than you already have w/o the amp overheating. You'll just be able to turn the volume higher to get the same sound and the sat will be closer to the same volume as the DVD player.

    Sorry it couldn't be better news...
    Karl K.

    The shortest distance between two points is a straight line... in the opposite direction.

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    So guys, what you are suggesting is that fault lies with the low impedence of the speakers - I should have opted for the 8 ohm version. Well, yes, the pricing factor was all important at that point of time.

    But its heartening to know that this is a universal problem caused by the physics of electricity and nothing plagueing my particular amplifier.

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    Lightbulb

    One way to solve your problem is to connect a 4 ohm resistor in series for each speaker. So the connection is like this (from either + or - terminal): Amplifier - Resistor - Speaker. This will give extra 4 ohms total impedance of your speaker and your amp should not trip so easily.

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    Thanks F1. This seems the most heartening reply to my querry ! I am rather a novice myself at electricity. Actually I hated the electricity physics so bad - i dropped out of my engeneering just coz of it.
    So now if you have to some time to spare - would you just let me know what a resistance would look like and how do you put into "series with the speaker" ? How does one connect the speaker cable to the resistor - basically where and how exactly do you put the resistance?

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    I'm not an electrical engineer myself, but let me try. Resistors look like this
    http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage....WebPage_ID=141
    and you need higher wattage than the common 1/2 watt for normal electrical circuit (the one with rings of different colors). So you need resistor that looks like this
    http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...er=004-4&DID=7
    or
    http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...er=005-4&DID=7

    As for the connection, place the resistor between amplifier and speaker. With your existing connection for example, unplug the + (red) wire from the speaker terminal, connect one end of the resistor to the wire (put together, twist, tape) then plug the other end of the resistor to the speaker + terminal. Make sure the bare metal is not touching the - (black) terminal (use tape if necessary). By placing the resistor in series with your speaker, the sound characteristics may change a bit. Anyway, resistor is cheap and I think it's worth trying. Good luck.

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    Forum Regular jack70's Avatar
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    re

    Different amp topographies react differently with different loads. Some amps wouldn't have a problem with those speakers in parallel. Other amps are even more finicky about capacitive reactance or other complex impedance anomalies. But some amps will drive just about anything. Sorta like car engines... a huge diesel-truck engine, a hi-rpm sports car engine, and an average passenger car engine are all designed for doing certain things best... providing brute force (pulling) power, quick (racing) torque, or gas mileage. So you're right... it's all basic physics.

    I agree with This Guy that it's possible the impedance could drop to 1 ohm or less at certain frequencies... the amp might be able to handle that only at very low volumes. I'd play the system with just one speaker per channel. Then connect them in series... it's not something that should give you any better upside, but it's worth trying... you might like the sound better (depends on the music and loudness you prefer).

    Using power resistors has some downsides, most of which are dependent on the amp circuitry and how loud you plan to run it. It's not an elegant solution for sure, and could even blow out certain components under high stress unless you know some simple Ohms-law stuff.
    You don't know... jack

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1
    One way to solve your problem is to connect a 4 ohm resistor in series for each speaker. So the connection is like this (from either + or - terminal): Amplifier - Resistor - Speaker. This will give extra 4 ohms total impedance of your speaker and your amp should not trip so easily.
    The only problem I see is that half the power will be eaten up by the resistor, in which case he needs a high power resistor or it will go up in smoke, and the volume in th espeaker will not get very loud if half the power is in the resistor.
    mtrycrafts

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    The only problem I see is that half the power will be eaten up by the resistor, in which case he needs a high power resistor or it will go up in smoke, and the volume in th espeaker will not get very loud if half the power is in the resistor.
    Yes, it's true that the power of the amplifier will be reduced and higher power resistor is needed. 4 watt or higher resistors (see the link above) should be fine, again not the typical 1/2 watt resistor. I would not worry about the volume as he can turn the volume up more if needed. Cheers.

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    The effective amplifier damping factor as seen by the loudspeaker will drop below one. Depending on the inherent low frequency resonances of the speaker, this could result in a change which is anything from inaudible to becoming very boomy. I'd probably opt for at least a 25 watt resistor and I think 2 ohms should be given a try before you try 4. In fact, if 2 ohms doesn't work, you could get another pair of 1 or 2 ohm resistors and add them in series with the first ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msrance
    When ever i push up the volume of the amp to anywhere beyond 40% mark on the volume control - its protection circuitry just cuts in and pushes it to stand by mode. I assume this should be due to overheating or overloading - as per the amp literature.
    It is quite possible that there are no problems at all in your system, other than an unintentional case of overdriving the amplifier. Since your subwoofers are powered units, that would likely rule out the difficult load scenario that some have speculated upon. I believe you may simply be unaware of the relative nature of the gain (volume) control. Full output of most amplifiers usually occurs far earlier than at the maximum position.

    Basically, all audio systems are composed of multiple amplifiers, each driving the next one in the signal chain. Engineers will usually build in some extra capability in each stage in order to cover variations in other components. In your system, there are three output stages: one in the DVD player (or tuner), one in the preamplifier section of your integrated amp, and one in the power amplier section of your integrated. Most CD/DVD players put out somewhere around 2 volts. In some cases, even more. Your integrated amplifier, however, is likely designed to operate with far less. For example, my NAD 320 BEE integrated can be driven to full output with a .22 volt input. That is roughly one tenth the amount that is being sent to it by the player. Since I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 40%, I will use the clockface as an alternative way to visualize the setting of the gain control. With my Pioneer CDP, I get full output on the NAD at about 10:00 with most content. Moving it further simply pushes it into overload, called clipping. The sound becomes noticeably distorted. Persistent clipping will usually result in the protective circuitry of an amplifier to intercede.

    In another system of mine, I take advantage of this situation and simply eliminate the middle stage. The CD player drives the amplifiers directly. In this system, full gain occurs at just below the 2:00 position. In both systems, I am getting the full output of the amplifier being driven, albeit at very different settings on the gain control.

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 01-22-2004 at 02:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    The effective amplifier damping factor as seen by the loudspeaker will drop below one. Depending on the inherent low frequency resonances of the speaker, this could result in a change which is anything from inaudible to becoming very boomy. I'd probably opt for at least a 25 watt resistor and I think 2 ohms should be given a try before you try 4. In fact, if 2 ohms doesn't work, you could get another pair of 1 or 2 ohm resistors and add them in series with the first ones.
    Good point that he should give the 2 ohms a try first; not to make so much changes to the original design while improving the impedance. Regarding the wattage, typical wattage for the crossover resistors (non inductive types) is between 4 to 12 watts. The resistors in my speaker are 7 and 10 watts. Do you think this wattage rating is not sufficient for his application? I'm wondering if he gets the higher power resistor, the ones that are available are the inductive type, which may cause very audible diference.

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    Guys , thanks for the load of help. I will try out the resistor thing and let you guys know what became of it. I am going out to search for the resistor - I hope I get that Great Resistors here in India.

    As far as the 40% volume is concerned - I meant 10 o clock on a clock face. And I do agree with you that after that position it does start distorting and the general warmth of the sounds disapperas into something more harsh. just before you hit that point - you never realise how high the volume is - it seems so soothing to the ears.

    I hope I can do this Resistor thing - You know like i said - i was so afraid of the electricity that i had to drop out of electrical engg in my first yr itself and change professions to medicine!!! I hope I dont burn my fingers at this ! Last thing i want is fellow doctors making a jest of it !!!

  15. #15
    Forum Regular jeskibuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msrance
    I will try out the resistor thing and let you guys know what became of it.
    I don't think you're going to be happy with the results. As was said previously, the resistor is going to suck up about half the power that would normally go to the speaker. This will solve the dilemma with the Yamaha because it would now perceive that it's driving an 8-ohm speaker, so the protection circuitry should no longer trip.

    But the problem is in the volume, isn't it? You wanted to play your speakers louder, and when you cranked up the volume, the Yamaha shut down. With the resistor in place, the volume (at the same knob position, say 10 o'clock) should be less than it was before because the resistor's consuming half the power. So now, you may have to crank the volume knob up ALL the way (or close to it) to get to the same volume you were playing prior to the protection circuitry kicking in. So, you haven't gained ANYTHING, except that you're consuming more electricity at WHATEVER volume you're listening to and the receiver shouldn't go into standby mode anymore.

    What you need is...
    • either get used to listening at lower volumes or
    • buy a more powerful amp/receiver or
    • get new, more efficient speakers

    On that list of options, I would shoot for the more powerful amp!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeskibuff
    I don't think you're going to be happy with the results. As was said previously, the resistor is going to suck up about half the power that would normally go to the speaker. This will solve the dilemma with the Yamaha because it would now perceive that it's driving an 8-ohm speaker, so the protection circuitry should no longer trip.

    But the problem is in the volume, isn't it? You wanted to play your speakers louder, and when you cranked up the volume, the Yamaha shut down. With the resistor in place, the volume (at the same knob position, say 10 o'clock) should be less than it was before because the resistor's consuming half the power. So now, you may have to crank the volume knob up ALL the way (or close to it) to get to the same volume you were playing prior to the protection circuitry kicking in. So, you haven't gained ANYTHING, except that you're consuming more electricity at WHATEVER volume you're listening to and the receiver shouldn't go into standby mode anymore.

    What you need is...
    • either get used to listening at lower volumes or
    • buy a more powerful amp/receiver or
    • get new, more efficient speakers

    On that list of options, I would shoot for the more powerful amp!
    Here's my logic.
    If the amplifier sees 8 ohm impedance it will output 100W/channel, which is as per specification. Now he is running something that is outside the specification, so boosting the impedance should help. Besides, let say by adding the resistor the amplifier is loosing half of the power (= become 100W/c) the volume will only reduce by 3 dB which is easily tackled by volume control.

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    Getting an amplifier to run "per specification" doesn't make much of a difference. You need the ability to drive a power-hungry speaker and for that, you need current. The Yamaha just can't deliver in that regard.

    Let's use a water analogy. Consider a water wheel on a river. The water at the top of the wheel is the "voltage". It has the potential (through gravity) to move the wheel. Let's say the wheel is 20 feet high and let's equate that to 20 volts. A gallon of water at 20 feet has the same potential as each of 20,000 gallons of water waiting to push that wheel around. But one or two gallons just doesn't have the oomph to move the wheel. You need the ability to deliver enough current to make that wheel perform. A weak amplifier is like having ten little old ladies carrying water in buckets from a pond to the top of the wheel. Having a strong amplifier is like having Lake Mead supplying the water. When one gallon goes into the wheel, there's another gallon right behind it. Consequently, the wheel will "perform".

    Now, putting a resistor in series with the speaker is like partially blocking the chute leading to the water wheel. The ten little old ladies (the Yamaha) can feel better that the water they dump into the chute doesn't disappear as quickly, but the wheel turns even slower than it did before! The resistor is ROBBING the power that the speaker needs. So you either need to get a smaller wheel (more efficient speakers), or get a more powerful amplifier (give the old ladies a break, willya?)

    Quote Originally Posted by F1
    by adding the resistor the amplifier is loosing half of the power (= become 100W/c) the volume will only reduce by 3 dB which is easily tackled by volume control.
    That's really just saying you'll get those old ladies to work harder by flogging them with a whip! You've got that chute partially blocked, letting less water get to the wheel, but the overworked ladies CAN keep the chute at a higher level than before. BUT...the wheel barely turns. The speakers need CURRENT to move those drivers the way they are supposed to be driven. Give them current! DON'T DEPRIVE THEM!
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    I don't think there's any simple analogy can really explain the real electronics thing. But hey, resistor is cheap! If it works then he saves few hundred/thousand bucks from buying another amp or speaker.

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    I think you guys are off track here.

    1) If the sub is being driven by the integrated, that is BAD. An integrated amplifier or receiver is NOT meant to drive a sub. Get a powered sub, or add a dedicated amp desiged for woofer applications. Sorry Karl, the h/k would puke on its shoes as fast or faster than the Yamaha. Since the amplifier in the AX596 is pretty good, the h/k would probably shut down faster. Stop running the sub if it is being powered by the integrated for the time being.

    2) If you still have a problem, you may have a shorting voice coil. That was the situation with a pair of Cantons a friend had recently.

    3) If you are driving two sets of speakers, especially 4 ohm (having no idea of how reactive each is), 10 o'clock on the dial is where you are going to run out of gas. Sounds about right to me...that should be pretty dang loud. I hope your tone controls are set flat.

    4) Consider having a crossover built, or finding one that will cross you over about 80 Hz between the speaker and woofer. Then the amplifier is only driving one at a time, and your problems will be somewhat solved. Capacitors and coils, 4 per side will get you a 12 dB slope which will work wonders.

    5) you will really need to get a powered sub, or power what you've got. Sub amps are cheap, relatively speaking.
    Space

    The preceding comments have not been subjected to double blind testing, and so must just be taken as casual observations and not given the weight of actual scientific data to be used to prove a case in a court of law or scientific journal. The comments represent my humble opinion which will range in the readers perspective to vary from Gospel to heresy. So let it be.

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    Forum Regular jeskibuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F1
    I don't think there's any simple analogy can really explain the real electronics thing.
    Actually, electricity behaves A LOT like water. The analogy serves well to try to explain the way it works without getting into a technical explanation that would probably not be understood.
    Quote Originally Posted by spacedeckman
    Get a powered sub
    Funny, but a websearch on "Sonodyne Roarr 2" led me to the Sonodyne page where they show only 2 models, the 1810 and 2815, both powered. The next good hit was msrance's own profile in which he says the sub is powered. The shorting voice coil is a possibility worth checking out. Also msrance...could you describe how the sub is hooked up? Does it feed off the high-level speaker connections or is it hooked up to low-level (RCA) connections? I would assume that because it's a 2-channel system, the Yamaha doesn't have a low-level subwoofer output. If connected to the speakers, just for funsies disconnect the sub altogether and see if you have the shutdown problem. It's possible that there's a wiring problem or that the sub is drawing too much signal off the lines, but the distortion that msrance is hearing above "the 40% volume" level is telling me that the Yamaha is just plain being overworked.
    Last edited by jeskibuff; 02-02-2004 at 04:04 AM.
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    Cool Things have all worked out for the better !!

    Hi Guys. I guess I have been off the discussion lately - but all this while i have been trying to sort this out - and have I sorted it out buddy!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jeskibuff
    Funny, but a websearch on "Sonodyne Roarr 2" led me to the Sonodyne page where they show only 2 models, the 1810 and 2815, both powered.
    Well on the very same page you will find link to the Roarr I, II, III and G22 powered subwoofers.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeskibuff
    .could you describe how the sub is hooked up? Does it feed off the high-level speaker connections or is it hooked up to low-level (RCA) connections? I would assume that because it's a 2-channel system, the Yamaha doesn't have a low-level subwoofer output.
    Well, yes, the Yamaha does connect thru high level speaker connections. But i had been misguided into connecting the speakers thru their terminals and connecting the sub thru the record out connection. This was probably what was causing the problem - after connecting the high level speaker connection to the powered sub and connecting the peakers to the sub's speaker out - that distortion problem was sorted out.

    This left me with that problem of the protection circuitry cutting in before the volume could be really cranked up. I got myself a couple of real good 42" floorstanders from a DIY enthusiast rated at 8ohms and with 4 drivers per speaker - 1" fabric dome tweeter from Peerless, 5.25" mid range from rave, two 8" woofers from Rave with a rear vent. Boy does it really play.

    That brings in a new phenomenon of boom / loose bass at high volumes - but that is sorted out somewhat by playing my old speakers and new speakers both as A+B speakers. Now the amp does not even cut in with the protection at any volume - and the present volumes for the system are about al i want - any more would be beyond the scope of my room walls endurance limit.

    Quote Originally Posted by spacedeckman
    the h/k would puke on its shoes as fast or faster than the Yamaha. Since the amplifier in the AX596 is pretty good, the h/k would probably shut down faster.
    I do agree on that one - the Yamaha AX596 does have a lot of power if mated with the correct speakers.

  22. #22
    Forum Regular jeskibuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msrance
    on the very same page you will find link to the Roarr I, II, III and G22 powered subwoofers.
    Well...duh...if it were a snake...
    Quote Originally Posted by msrance
    That brings in a new phenomenon of boom / loose bass at high volumes - but that is sorted out somewhat by playing my old speakers and new speakers both as A+B speakers.
    It's good that you've got the problem fixed, but exactly how are the speakers wired now? Do you have them in series (positive terminal of amp going to positive terminal of "speaker A". Negative terminal of speaker "A" going to positive of "speaker B". Negative terminal of speaker "B" going to negative terminal of Yamaha) or are they hooked up in parallel? Does the Yamaha have "A" and "B" speaker outputs with a front-panel selector?
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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by jeskibuff
    exactly how are the speakers wired now? Do you have them in series (positive terminal of amp going to positive terminal of "speaker A". Negative terminal of speaker "A" going to positive of "speaker B". Negative terminal of speaker "B" going to negative terminal of Yamaha) or are they hooked up in parallel? Does the Yamaha have "A" and "B" speaker outputs with a front-panel selector?
    Yes, the Yamaha does have A and B speaker outputs with a front panel selector for either or both.

    No, its not been connected the way you suggest. Actually its rather complicated - lets deal with it in 2 pieces.

    The "A" speaker connector "positive" goes to the powered sub's "positive" and the sub's speaker out positive goes to the 4 ohm Sonodyne floorstanders positive. Ditto for the negatives.

    The "B" speaker connector "positive" goes to the new 8 ohm speaker's "positive" and ditto for the negatives.

    Alright this brings us to a new problem - do help me out with this one too buddy - it just freaks me out. I connected my computers sound card out to the Yamaha (Tape In) - and I used to get the sound from just the right channel speaker and that too at very low SPL compared to the tuner or the DVD, while the left channel speaker just gave a constant irritating hum. The same sound card when connected to my Altec Lansing XA 3021 speakers (2.1 system with powered sub running the sattelite speakers) used to give a perfect sound and harmony ( except that the sound levels were too low for my new much bigger room ).
    This led me to connect the sound card out to the powered sub of the altec lansing and use the sattelite speaker out to connect to the Yamaha (since the altecs dont have a pre-out). This gave a routine output from the left channel speaker now (no hum) but now the sound from the right channel speaker was far out-volumed by the left. So that now everytime i listen to my MP3s without burning them on CD, I have to change the balance of the right and left speakers to get an adjusted output.
    Besides if I turn up the volume on the altec's volume control - the sound starts clipping in the Yamaha even at 12 o clock position of the altec's volume control. This same Altec used to run hassle free even at its peak of 4 o clock position when it was connected with its own sattelite speakers.
    I hope I am not going to blow up my Altec powered sub in trying all these permutations and combinations with the sound. Do help me with this one please.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by msrance
    Yes, the Yamaha does have A and B speaker outputs with a front panel selector for either or both.
    So you play both sets of speakers at the same time? If so, you're giving your Yamaha a REALLY tough load...by my calculations, about a 2.67-ohm load. The Yamaha may be able to take it, but it might be running pretty hot.
    Quote Originally Posted by msrance
    I connected my computers sound card out to the Yamaha (Tape In) - and I used to get the sound from just the right channel speaker and that too at very low SPL compared to the tuner or the DVD, while the left channel speaker just gave a constant irritating hum.
    This sounds like a connector problem to me. What kind of connector are you using? Is it just one cable with a mini-phono plug at one end and two male RCA plugs on the other end? Is it a combination of cables and a "Y" adapter?
    Quote Originally Posted by msrance
    This led me to connect the sound card out to the powered sub of the altec lansing and use the sattelite speaker out to connect to the Yamaha (since the altecs dont have a pre-out).
    You don't want to do that. The output level of the Altec should be too high for what your Yamaha is expecting.
    Quote Originally Posted by msrance
    I hope I am not going to blow up my Altec powered sub in trying all these permutations and combinations with the sound.
    The Altec has nothing to worry about. Your Yamaha IS vulnerable to damage, though!
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    unless..........

    Maybe your amp has a faulty thermoswitch that is prematurely activating the protection circuit....?? A good repair shop should be able to check it out.

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