Will SACD make vinyl obsolete?

[rb122]

[QUOTE=Sir Terrence the Terrible]

being familiar with master tapes doesnt qualify one to be a jerk. or maybe in this case it does. i am familiar with live music, and vinyl reproduction gives me more of the cues that suggest the real thing than does rbcd.[\QUOTE]


RB,

It matters none the least to me whether you believe what I do for living is true. I just don't care. It is a fact that some humans(and I repeat again, lovers of vinyl records and stereo sound are amoung these humans)love distortion. If you like any of these two, you LOVE distortion, whether it be the distortion of the spatial cues, or distortion of the signal. Some humans really love the roll off characterstics of the vinyl medium, and whenever a full frequency recording is presented to them, they find it bright sounding. We get used to what we like, flaws and all.
I have never been a big fan of redbook CD, however I am a HUGE fan of multichannel DVD-A AND SACD because they come the closest to recreating a live event. Two channel vinyl(or CD) fail meserably in this area because by shear fomat design they misplace spatial cues, and have problems with handling the harmonics of cymbal crashes(which have huge amounts of energy to 40khz) and percussive transients of drums, piano's chimes and glocks. Anytime a format rolls off the highest frequencies, it will have a horrible time with the leading edge of transients.

On two occasions in the last year I have had the opportunity to compare the outputs of DVD-A, SACD, the mixing desk versus the live performer simultaneously using a ABX comparorator(switching device). 90% of the time I couldn't tell which was which. Try that with the vinyl format and it won't even be close.

In my twenty years of recording audio I have gotten the chance to compare my master tapes to first vinyl pressing, and the first lot of the duplication process of the CD's. The vinyl record sounded fine between 50hz and 4khz. But below and above that it betrayed itself. The CD sound fine until about 7khz, and then I noticed a closing in, and loss of air. Neither IMO were good for high frequency harmonics of some instruments which makes them both not in the same class as DVD-A and SACD whose response can extend to 50khz and above. So I say in the words of Chas"off with THEIR heads!"

RB, if you are REALLY interested in hearing what is closer to the live performance then vinyl should not be your medium of choice. If you are interested in keeping a vast library of vinyl discs in rotation, that's a different story. But if you HONESTLY BELIEVE the vinyl two channel format is the most accurate representation of a live event, you are just fooling yourself. Its really easy to dismiss and relegate the truth as "GARBAGE on an analog forum",

I would also in the future take a good look at the reproduction chain of your system(especially speakers and room acoustics), because sometimes the software is not the problem, the hardware is. Alot of vinyl lovers tend to spend copious amounts of money on there system(which is a small part of the reproduction equation) and spend no money on the acoustics of the room(which is a HUGE part of the reproduction chain). I am not trying to offend anyone, but trying to inject a little reality into this vinyl lovefest.

Actually, it doesn't matter to me if you are who you say you are or if you aren't. It also doesn't matter to me if I believe you or not. I'm not saying I didn't, in all honesty. But there seems to be a bit of truth bending on A/R about people's resumes and such. That was never really the point, however. The point is you can challenge us if you must but we were simply responding in kind.

I've posted here recently on this very thread that I have no real experience with SACD or DVD-A so I can't comment. My comparisons are solely between vinyl, redbook CD and the music I hear and/or perform almost nightly - at least it SEEMS nightly. I'm considering taking some time off from performing. I need the rest! Anyway, the only direct comparisons I've been able to do is vinyl against redbook CD. I've also stated that the problems I associate with rbcd may very well be NOT inherent in the medium. When I compare the two, I'm comparing the final product against the final product which is the LP vs the CD and not the mechanics. At least 95% of the time, the vinyl is musically satisfying and the CD is not. I don't find CD's "bright" all the time - in fact, I find their biggest problems to be in the lower treble/upper midrange and the problems are largely of tonal imbalance. If that's the recording/mastering, fine. It still makes for a poor sounding product whereas the corresponding LP is excellent. I don't argue mediums because my issue is sound, not analog over digital.

I did not "get used to" what I prefer. On the contrary, I grew up with CD's. My music career postdated the vinyl era. My parents had old beat up records and a cheesy system and I assumed that's what vinyl sounded like. I also knew as I grew older that CD's just sounded flat and "unreal". But I learned to deal with them as a fact of life -that live music and reproduced music were totally different worlds.

When I first heard vinyl done properly about 8 or so years ago, I was floored! I was not prepared for recorded sound to be so real! If I had a bias, it was decidedly against vinyl. I bought a rig and started my LP collection. Some of them are nasty sounding if they have surface noise or are recorded poorly but the vast majority of them sound proper to my ears. I have gotten "used to" them because they sound most like what I hear when I'm on stage or in the audience (I'm a semi-professional jazz guitarist - good enough to make a little money and not piss off the pianist but not good enough or brave enough to go fully pro).

I may be "fooling" myself but that's what reproduced sound is all about - fooling yourself into believing the musicians and the listener aren't separated by wires, wood and knobs but are together in the same room. As I've said, multichannel SACD or DVD-A may be the ultimate answer but I've little experience with high resolution digital and virtually NO experience with multichannel. I'm only comparing vinyl with rbcd. And I just recently coughed up money for a new system and NOW you're telling me I need new stuff?

P.S My system is VPI HW-19 jr/Graham Robin/Benz ACE; Rega Planet (original); Coincident Partial Eclipse; Manley Stingray; My total investment was about $5000. I've begun reading about room acoustics and am a little while away from deciding what I want to do there but will eventually do something.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Actually, it doesn't matter to me if you are who you say you are or if you aren't. It also doesn't matter to me if I believe you or not. I'm not saying I didn't, in all honesty. But there seems to be a bit of truth bending on A/R about people's resumes and such. That was never really the point, however. The point is you can challenge us if you must but we were simply responding in kind.

Good, because this eleminates any distractions from the topic at hand. Since I have no desire to impress anyone, bending my resume is unnecessary.

I've posted here recently on this very thread that I have no real experience with SACD or DVD-A so I can't comment. My comparisons are solely between vinyl, redbook CD and the music I hear and/or perform almost nightly - at least it SEEMS nightly. I'm considering taking some time off from performing. I need the rest! Anyway, the only direct comparisons I've been able to do is vinyl against redbook CD. I've also stated that the problems I associate with rbcd may very well be NOT inherent in the medium. When I compare the two, I'm comparing the final product against the final product which is the LP vs the CD and not the mechanics.

I would have a problem with this comparison because mastering for CD is different than mastering for vinyl. That would make any comparison unfair. I however commend you on your honesty regarding your understanding, and your experience(or lack of)of each format. Most people here would not admit to not having experience just for the chance to argue.

. At least 95% of the time, the vinyl is musically satisfying and the CD is not. I don't find CD's "bright" all the time - in fact, I find their biggest problems to be in the lower treble/upper midrange and the problems are largely of tonal imbalance. If that's the recording/mastering, fine. It still makes for a poor sounding product whereas the corresponding LP is excellent.

Then my argument would be that the mixing and mastering was aimed at turning out a superior vinyl sound, and not digital. There is absolute nothing in the sampling process that alters tonal balance in the range you describe, unless a low sample rate(and bit rate) was used. If MP3 or minidisc was used as the recording device(as most non budgeted recording uses) then the CD will sound like crap compared to the vinyl product. There are so many specifics not included in your post(like recording equipment, bit rate and sampling used, setup, insturmentation, etc) that it is just impossible to track down any deficiency that can occur in the digital product.

I did not "get used to" what I prefer. On the contrary, I grew up with CD's. My music career postdated the vinyl era. My parents had old beat up records and a cheesy system and I assumed that's what vinyl sounded like. I also knew as I grew older that CD's just sounded flat and "unreal". But I learned to deal with them as a fact of life -that live music and reproduced music were totally different worlds.

I think you assesment of CD sound is way to general. Some discs sound flat and unreal. The better sounding ones are the total opposite of that.

may be "fooling" myself but that's what reproduced sound is all about - fooling yourself into believing the musicians and the listener aren't separated by wires, wood and knobs but are together in the same room. As I've said, multichannel SACD or DVD-A may be the ultimate answer but I've little experience with high resolution digital and virtually NO experience with multichannel. I'm only comparing vinyl with rbcd. And I just recently coughed up money for a new system and NOW you're telling me I need new stuff? .

Please accept my most humblest of apologies about this ;>) Sometimes you don't have to fool yourself. Sometimes the recording is is soo good it can fool ya. I would suggest to you to hear a VERY good demo of multichannel SACD or DVD-A on some good equipment in a room with tight controls on the acoustics. I think it would go along way in helping you to understand(not necessarily except) my opinion.


P.S My system is VPI HW-19 jr/Graham Robin/Benz ACE; Rega Planet (original); Coincident Partial Eclipse; Manley Stingray; My total investment was about $5000. I've begun reading about room acoustics and am a little while away from deciding what I want to do there but will eventually do something.[/QUOTE]