Raspy Vinyl Record Help

[NuttyBuddy]

Hello! This is my first post here.

I'm hoping someone here can explain some issues I have as I take on the task of recording my vinyl record collection onto CDs. My first issue is the poor sound quality of a small few of my records. I'm not talking about the usual wear and tear crackle issues, but rather issues that were present when first played when I bought them. I have about 500 45s that I collected back in the mid 70s to 1980, and about 200 LPs

Some of these records produce a raspy crackly sound when the sound breaches a certain level. This is short MP3 cut from a Barry Manilow tune that demonstrates this issue:
http://www.nuttybuddy.net/page1/raspy.mp3
This record has been played a few times, but I'm certain this effect was present from the get-go. My standards were pretty low back in the 70s.

I'm recording both sides of my 45s. I've come across some B-sides which I have never played with the same issue. Here is a really bad one I came across last week. It is a short B-side MP3 excerpt of a Janis Ian single that never, ever had been played previously:
http://www.nuttybuddy.net/page1/raspy2.mp3
Image of the record:
http://www.nuttybuddy.net/page1/310154.JPG
This is a 7 minute song on a 45, so that may have something to do with it. I suspect these problems are manufacturing defects. I'd just like someone to confirm this....or maybe a turntable cartridge replacement might resolve this? Anyone dealt with this issue?

Now to cracks, yesterday I recorded a B-side of a Bad Company 45. This is at the beginning, and again, this side had never been played before:
http://www.nuttybuddy.net/page1/cracky.mp3
This drove me nuts! How can a never before played record sound so worn?

Most of the records are recording very well. I'm using a Pioneer PL-670 direct drive turntable with its original cartridge, routing it through a Pioneer receiver, and out to my PC through an SB Audugy input. I use GoldWave to record and edit the WAV file, and I use Groove Mechanic to clean the pops and clicks (it does a pretty good job too! - but it can't fix that Bad Company dissaster). All my records have been well maintained, all in their original sleeves, and stored at room temperature in the upright position

Thanks,
Buddy

[royphil345]

Hi,

I'm sure someone will recommend a good cleaning method. Records can get very dirty just sitting around a few years. I won't give advice here, as my cleaning methods are crude at best. (a little dish soap and tap water only when absolutely necessary) Most of my records are used, so I figured any distortion problems were from past abuse (played with a damaged stylus or heavy stylus pressure). Just one play with a damaged stylus can ruin a record forever. Though, I do have a few records (mostly but not only 45s) that look absolutely mint and still have distortion. So maybe a bad pressing? I haven't had the problem to quite that extent though. Could be the MP3 compression or digital noise cancelation is making things worse? I also noticed that my troublesome records did sound better as I bought better tracking cartridges, but it didn't completely "cure" them. I didn't think the Bad Company sounded so bad... Sounded "extra authentic"... lol Sounds like a good cleaning might help this one. Are you sure your stylus is good? Better safe than sorry here.

[BRANDONH]

Try this product it may help:
http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo....item=1&mitem=3

[E-Stat]

Hello! This is my first post here.

I'm hoping someone here can explain some issues I have as I take on the task of recording my vinyl record collection onto CDs. My first issue is the poor sound quality of a small few of my records. I'm not talking about the usual wear and tear crackle issues, but rather issues that were present when first played when I bought them.

Welcome to the forum, NB. There are two possible answers to your question, either individually or collectively. Plastic is a natural conductor and dust magnet. Even new records can exhibit a collection of dust that can cause this noise. I've used a VPI record cleaning machine for over twenty years to address that. While I'm not suggesting going out and spending $450 on one of these machines, you might find someone or a dealer nearby who has one who will let you use it to clean your records prior to recording.

The other cause was the use of recycled vinyl used to press many a pop recording back in the 80s. As opposed to "virgin vinyl", recycled vinyl contains some of the paper from the labels and sounds noisy from the get go even after extensive cleaning.

rw

[NuttyBuddy]

Thanks for the feedback!

The most cleaning I've ever done is with Discwasher fluid. I've just discovered the machines talked about on this site. I've never seen them locally. As a matter of fact, I did a web search for "record cleaning" which lead me to this forum.

Would the lower cost manual Nitty Gritty machines fit my cleaning needs? I need one that will do 45s also. Before I found this site, I found this page that shows a do-it-yourself cleaning machine:
http://www.teresaudio.com/haven/cleaner/cleaner.html
Any thoughts on that one? How about that cleaning fluid formula they suggest?
I don't mind the manual method of cleaning. My recording to CD process is not very fast.

Now about magnetic cartridges and my Pioneer PL-670 turntable. This turntable does not appear to have the normal, mount from above, cartridge, but rather a simple plug from behind unit - I don't even know if you'd call it a cartridge. Here is my turntable:
http://www.nuttybuddy.net/page1/PC120003.JPG

With most of my records, the sound quality I get from this is fine for me, but I know the stylus has a lot of mileage on it (the original) and I read here that a worn stylus can damage records. Any suggestions on updating it with a decent replacement that is reputable and gives comparative sound quality to the orginal? I don't even know how and if the arms tracking and anti-skating settings are adjustable. The swivel of the arm reads "Dynamic Resonance Absorber". The silver cylinder on the arm is marked "DRA" and I guess it is what adjusts the tracking force by sliding it forward or back. By the back of the arm is a label that appears to have a "T4P" logo that reads "factory adjusted for optimum value...-tracking force, -anti-skating". There's also a pictured meter on that label pointed to 1.25 on a scale of 0 to 2. Is this thing adjustable with a new cartridge, or do I need a new "real" turntable that I can adjust? Anyone know about this turntable?

Thanks again!

Buddy

[royphil345]

That's what's called a P-Mount cartridge. That's what the T4P means. The sticker is saying that the tracking force and anti-skate are factory set at 1.25 grams. There's probably a way to adjust these, but from the picture I couldn't tell you how. Might be that the adjustment isn't even calibrated (screws + springs) and you would need a stylus pressure guage to do it properly. This "Dynamic Resistance Absorber" seems to be something else, but if there is a weight that slides up and down the tonearm that would adjust the tracking force. Sorry I can't be more help, maybe someone else has had experience with a table like this.

Anyhow... The Cartridge looks like some sort of Audio Technica. I tried one that looked just like that years ago and I did notice it had a tendancy towards mistracking and distortion. While writing this, I just remembered that I HAVE an Audio Technica cartridge that looks exactly like the one on your table. Came installed on a turntable I bought not too long ago. The guy who sold me the table on e-Bay said it was new, but I have no proof of this. I already had a cartridge that I wanted to use on the new table, so the first thing I did was remove the Audio Technica without even trying it. It's a P-Mount with an adapter so it could also be used on a standard-mount turntable like mine. There are more than a few Audio Technica models that look the same. I looked this one up and it has a .4 X .7 elliptical stylus. Might be a little better (and newer) than what's on there now. Many stock turntable cartridges used a conical stylus that won't track quite as well. If you want it, I'll send it to you for free. Just e-Mail me your address. royphil345@yahoo.com If you want to try and find a P-Mount cartridge that tracks a little better, there's a Shure M92E that sells for $30.00-$40.00 There's a Stanton in the same price-range. And some Ortofons that cost a little more. Think you can order any Grado Prestige Series cartridge as a P-Mount, but many people have problems with Grados having a hum on direct drive Tables. Don't know if cartridge weight is part of the T4P standard. If it is, you could plug in anything that will track at 1.25 grams without having to worry about adjustments. If not, the different cartridge weight would effect your tracking force.

[NuttyBuddy]

Thanks for the explanation RP!

The bottom of my cartridge reads Pioneer 295T, but your right, it sure looks like an Audio-Technica now that I've looked at them. How about the Audio-Technica AT301EP cartridge? It's a T4P. Here is a review showing some specs:
http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/sc....it.A/id.214/.f
How do those specs look? I've seen it in the $30 to $40 range.

or the even higher spec AT-316EP?:
http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/sc....it.A/id.215/.f

Buddy

[E-Stat]

Would the lower cost manual Nitty Gritty machines fit my cleaning needs? I need one that will do 45s also.

While I don't have any direct experience with the NG machines, I am told they do a decent job.

Before I found this site, I found this page that shows a do-it-yourself cleaning machine:
http://www.teresaudio.com/haven/cleaner/cleaner.html
Any thoughts on that one? How about that cleaning fluid formula they suggest?

Their DIY machine looks great and seems to capture the essence of the VPI units. I've been using a similar fluid formula for decades. I use 91% isopropyl in a somewhat lower concentration (10%) than the 25% recommendation.

Now about magnetic cartridges and my Pioneer PL-670 turntable.

I see you got a very thorough answer about the P-mounts. I never used one.

rw

[royphil345]

I did a search on your Pioneer 296T and found that the replacement stylus is an Audio Technica (Pioneer must have rebranded some) and it has a conical tip. The price is about $25.00 so it would probably be worth the extra $10.00 or so to upgrade to an elliptical or biradial tip.

The one you had a link to with the .4 X .7 tip looks like the exact same cartridge I'm offering you for free. Although, this one is called an AT91E. Was harder to find info on this one. Must be discontinued. But I was able to confirm it has a .4 X .7 elliptical tip. It really does look new and has the seperate stylus guard on it that most people would lose if it were actually in use. Also included with the turntable was a nicer but older cartridge with a bad stylus that must have been on it originally. Guy seemed honest enough, LOVE the turntable I bought.

If you don't want to take a chance on that one (wouldn't blame you, I'd probably end up replacing the stylus if I wasn't sure ) I would probably give the Shure a shot or one of the Ortofons. Like I said, I tried a similar Audio Technica in the past (Think it was even the nicer one with the smaller .3 X .7 stylus) and I really did notice a tendency toward mistracking and distortion like you're having problems with. Just wasn't impressed + would try another brand for about the same price.


Let me know if you wanna' try the free AT

[NuttyBuddy]

Thanks E-Stat and RP!

I think I'll try to build a cleaner. I have a old spare Sony turntable and a cannister vac somewhere around here. Now to figure out where I get the correct cleaner fluids to mix!

Rp, I think I'll try another brand of p-mount cartridge. This distortion problem with ATs you described convinces me to take another route. Now I wonder which way I should go??? I'm willing to dish out up to $75 for a p-mount cartridge, maybe even reach a "little" higher if significant benefits are a result. This Ortofon?:
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merc..._Code=ORSER320
or is that more than I really need?

Any suggestions are appreciated!

Buddy

[royphil345]

How much cartridge you need for that table is a tough call. I was going to recommend something more like the OMP 5 E http://www.ortofon.com/html/profile....nical_data.asp This should perform much better than the Audio Technica with the conical stylus. Now the problem is that the Ortofon 320 you have a link to weighs 5 grams and the OMP 5 E weighs 6 grams. So much for my theory of cartridge weight being part of the T4P standard. So if you change cartridges, you're going to have to figure out how to set the stylus pressure or figure out how much the current Audio Technica weighs and buy something that weighs the same. Of course, Audio Technica seems to be the only brand that doesn't include cartridge weight as part of the specs. Sorry to add to your troubles... I know I'm supposed to be helping!!!! Maybe the easiest thing in this case would be to pick up one of the newer Audio Technicas that look (and probably weigh) the same as the old one with a better tip. Sorry again for steering you in circles!!! In most cases setting the stylus pressure isn't even an issue though.

[NuttyBuddy]

Sounds to me that any T4P cartridge should work on a T4P turntable since T4P turntables offer no adjustment for pressure:
http://www.kabusa.com/ttspec.htm
("P-Mount T4P" near the bottom)

"P-mount is a coordinated system devised in the '80's by which a standardized tonearm designated T4P was designed, and a standardized cartridge was designed. When a Pmount cartridge is plugged into a T4P tonearm, the alignment is perfect and the tracking force is perfect. The arm requires no adjustments. This was perhaps the best system ever devised to take the problems of tonearm set up out of the hands of the basic consumer. Tonearm set up continues to be one of the most common problems the consumer faces in getting the best sound from his turntable."

Am I wrong?

[royphil345]

"P-mount is a coordinated system devised in the '80's by which a standardized tonearm designated T4P was designed, and a standardized cartridge was designed. When a Pmount cartridge is plugged into a T4P tonearm, the alignment is perfect and the tracking force is perfect. The arm requires no adjustments. This was perhaps the best system ever devised to take the problems of tonearm set up out of the hands of the basic consumer. Tonearm set up continues to be one of the most common problems the consumer faces in getting the best sound from his turntable."

That's what I thought I read the whole idea of T4P was in the first place. Then I saw the different cartridge weights and I wasn't sure. The info you found on T4P is just what I was looking for but didn't find. Didn't want to steer you wrong.

When you think about it, the cartridge weight doesn't mean that much anyway. It would make a difference if the weight was toward the front or back of the cartridge. (the tonearm is like a lever) The cartridge bodies could even vary in length and the needle still hit the same place.

Think if you go with either one of those Ortofons, you'll notice a nice improvement. Like I said, as I moved up to better cartridges I did notice that my "problem" records sounded better. Although, not completely "cured". As far as which one to choose, that's up to you. I feel that the OMP 5 E would be a good match for the table and wouldn't be as likely to sound harsh with a budget table + preamp. Think it would be a real improvement over what you have now. The pricier one would probably sound a little clearer, have a little wider frequency range, but could end up sounding a bit "edgy" depending on other equipment.

Good luck on your mission of transferring all of your vinyl to digital!!!

[risabet]

Why would you do this to some fine analog music?

[NuttyBuddy]

Why would you do this to some fine analog music?

What, transfer my analog to digital? Simple. I have two connected 400 CD changers that play my music randomly throughout the house. The only way to play my hundreds of analog records randomly, continuously, and without my intervention is to digitalize them.

My quest to create my own cleaning solution hit a snag as my local chemical supply company requires me to have a business license to purchase lab grade isopropyl alcohol and distilled triple deononized water. I didn't even get to asking about the surfacant. Guess I'll have to buy the retail record cleaner.

Buddy

[BRANDONH]

Nutty Buddy,
see my earlier post on the Gruv-Glide record cleaner below is a link.
http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo....item=1&mitem=3

[NuttyBuddy]

Nutty Buddy,
see my earlier post on the Gruv-Glide record cleaner below is a link.
http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo....item=1&mitem=3

Hi Brandonh,

Thanks,

How would the Gruv-Glide results compare to the Nitty Gritty and Disk Doctor cleaning solutions? Pretty close? Geez, Royphil just uses dish soap and tap water!

[BRANDONH]

Hi Brandonh,

Thanks,

How would the Gruv-Glide results compare to the Nitty Gritty and Disk Doctor cleaning solutions? Pretty close? Geez, Royphil just uses dish soap and tap water!

I not sure how it would compare with the other two products above but my friend is a D.J. and he recommended Gruv-Glide to me.

[royphil345]

I would say that the Gruv-Glide looks more like a treatment that will also clean slightly dirty records. Think a deep cleaning with something like the Nitty-Gritty would be much better for records that haven't been cleaned in years. Not knocking the Gruv-Glide at all. I'm sure records deteriorate somehow over the years and a treatment may help.

Think in the future, I'll just add a little 91% alcohol to my mild dish soap solution and start using distilled water. I really should stop putting tap water on my records. (Could leave some mineral deposits)

[musicoverall]

I would say that the Gruv-Glide looks more like a treatment that will also clean slightly dirty records. Think a deep cleaning with something like the Nitty-Gritty would be much better for records that haven't been cleaned in years. Not knocking the Gruv-Glide at all. I'm sure records deteriorate somehow over the years and a treatment may help.

You are absolutely correct. Gruv-Glide is NOT a cleaning solution, it's a record preservative. No one should ever use this stuff to clean an LP, especially not with the two supplied pads. They'll get dirty after one use and then be useless. Gruv-Glide should only be used on clean records, as a preservative and an anti-static.

I use it religiously. As the name suggests, it helps the cartridge to ride the groove of an LP rather than dig a trench! But whatever cleaning method you use, this stuff goes on LAST! If your LP sleeve clings to the LP like a magnet, it's time for some Gruv-Glide. Great stuff!

[Woochifer]

Actually, the problem in those sound clips that you posted sounds to me more like defects in the record. No amount of cleaning, preserving, or cartridge aligning will recover it. Typically, this kind of distortion and sibilance gets worse as the needle towards the end of a record side, and it results from a record getting pressed from a worn out stamper. A stamper is only supposed to press a certain number of records before it gets discarded and a new one forged from the master disc, and often the major record companies would overproduce using worn stampers.

When I was buying LPs on a regular basis, I would get something like this on roughly 1 out of every 20 records that I bought. In every case, I exchanged it for another copy and the majority of the time the replacement copy did not have this issue. Unfortunately, it's a crap shoot whether or not you wind up with a record that was pressed with a fresh stamper or one that should have been tossed several hundred pressings ago. Since LP manufacturing's no longer a high volume endeavor, I doubt that you'll see this happen with newer LPs.

[NuttyBuddy]

Thanks Woochifer for the explanation! I suspected it was bad pressings, but never knew why they sounded crappy.

I attained most of my collection from 1975 to 1980 on a paper route allowance. I have a lot of singles because they were under $1.00 in those days and that's what I could afford. As a matter of fact I managed to collect all of the Billboard top 100 pop singles for the years 1976, 1979 and 1980. Got most of my albums in 1979 and 1980 when I got a real job.

I have a bunch of Capitol promotionals from that period and a bit earlier that I have never played. My Uncle used to work for Capitol Records and he got promos by the box load. Those promos were/are solid. I can't remember hearing a bad promo (except picture discs). Funny, at the time, I thought they were worthless since they were "not for sale" and sometimes I treated them as such. When I was about 12, I remember him giving me a box of promos which contained about 5 Instant Karma (John Lennon) 45s that were blank on the back side. I sold a couple for a dime each and treated the rest like crap. I have none of those now and won't even mention how much they would be worth today. I remember having an early Beatle promo 45 that had two songs on each side. Just a memory today.

[Ray H]

Bad pressings and perhaps coupled with wear from a damaged stylus*. Try the usual suggestions as above, but be prepared that maybe the most egregious offenders in your collection are toast*.

*And, maybe not - but at a price. Conical styli (such as originally supplied with your AudioTechnica/Pioneer cartridge) "ride" relatively high in the groove walls. If the damage is in that area, a hyper-elliptical or line contact stylus may be a problem solver since they ride much lower - often sufficiently so to contact only virgin wall. That's the good news. The bad news is that these styli are typically only available on better cartridges. I'd be giving serious consideration to one of the Grado "Prestige" series of cartridges that are available in TP4 configuration. All Grados have elliptical styli, a somewhat "forward" lush midrange, smooth highs, and deep, tight, commanding bass response (They need about 100 hours of breaking-in before the music "flows", though!). The Prestige "Blue" at about $80.00 would be a good step up, though even the entry level Grado "Black" at $40.00 is well respected in its price class. The only problem area I'm familiar with in Grado's design is a tendency for hum if there's an unshielded AC source nearby. As an example, Grado Prestige cartridges used with Rega turntables and their unshielded Airpax synchronous AC motors, are especially susceptible to induced hum. If your Pioneer TT's power supply transformer is shielded (probable) and located at the far corner from the cartridge when the cartridge approaches its nearest distance from the spindle, you're probably good to go with a Grado. Shures are also excellent sonically, and are well shielded against induced hum. Shure also has a re-tipping service. Just send in the old stylus assembly (any conical or elliptical), and for $20.00, you get a new stylus or retipping with a two year warranty. Their line contact ("MR" - micro-ridge) styli cost $50.00 to re-tip. In either case, MUCH cheaper than buying a brand new stylus from a dealer. (I'm just saddened that Shure has shut down production of their V-15 cartridges...)

[Woochifer]

Thanks Woochifer for the explanation! I suspected it was bad pressings, but never knew why they sounded crappy.

I attained most of my collection from 1975 to 1980 on a paper route allowance. I have a lot of singles because they were under $1.00 in those days and that's what I could afford. As a matter of fact I managed to collect all of the Billboard top 100 pop singles for the years 1976, 1979 and 1980. Got most of my albums in 1979 and 1980 when I got a real job.

I have a bunch of Capitol promotionals from that period and a bit earlier that I have never played. My Uncle used to work for Capitol Records and he got promos by the box load. Those promos were/are solid. I can't remember hearing a bad promo (except picture discs). Funny, at the time, I thought they were worthless since they were "not for sale" and sometimes I treated them as such. When I was about 12, I remember him giving me a box of promos which contained about 5 Instant Karma (John Lennon) 45s that were blank on the back side. I sold a couple for a dime each and treated the rest like crap. I have none of those now and won't even mention how much they would be worth today. I remember having an early Beatle promo 45 that had two songs on each side. Just a memory today.

Actually, I remember that 45s were more inconsistent sounding in general than LPs. That could be because a hit single would sell in the millions over a short period, while the LP that contained that song would see much lower sales volume.

Promos are usually a safe bet because they are early production, and I remember some record companies pressed their promos on denser vinyl, which made them quieter. Since promos usually go out to record stores, radio stations, and reviewers, and they often get pressed in low volumes with generic covers, I would think that there's some incentive to make sure that they don't wind up with something that sounds distorted. Somewhat similar to how movie studios distribute "wetgate" prints (those struck from the original negative rather than a second or third copy) to premieres, press screenings, and high profile showcase theaters.

Some vinyl junkies swear by the early production LPs as the best sounding ones because they are likeliest to be pressed by a stamper that's not as far removed from the master disc as latter pressings might be. You can actually identify the stamper number used to press a particular record by looking at the blank space at the end of the LP.

This inconsistency and variability is both the beauty and the curse of vinyl.

[JoeE SP9]

Hello! This is my first post here.

I'm hoping someone here can explain some issues I have as I take on the task of recording my vinyl record collection onto CDs. My first issue is the poor sound quality of a small few of my records. I'm not talking about the usual wear and tear crackle issues, but rather issues that were present when first played when I bought them. I have about 500 45s that I collected back in the mid 70s to 1980, and about 200 LPs

Some of these records produce a raspy crackly sound when the sound breaches a certain level. This is short MP3 cut from a Barry Manilow tune that demonstrates this issue:
http://www.nuttybuddy.net/page1/raspy.mp3
This record has been played a few times, but I'm certain this effect was present from the get-go. My standards were pretty low back in the 70s.

I'm recording both sides of my 45s. I've come across some B-sides which I have never played with the same issue. Here is a really bad one I came across last week. It is a short B-side MP3 excerpt of a Janis Ian single that never, ever had been played previously:
http://www.nuttybuddy.net/page1/raspy2.mp3
Image of the record:
http://www.nuttybuddy.net/page1/310154.JPG
This is a 7 minute song on a 45, so that may have something to do with it. I suspect these problems are manufacturing defects. I'd just like someone to confirm this....or maybe a turntable cartridge replacement might resolve this? Anyone dealt with this issue?

Now to cracks, yesterday I recorded a B-side of a Bad Company 45. This is at the beginning, and again, this side had never been played before:
http://www.nuttybuddy.net/page1/cracky.mp3
This drove me nuts! How can a never before played record sound so worn?

Most of the records are recording very well. I'm using a Pioneer PL-670 direct drive turntable with its original cartridge, routing it through a Pioneer receiver, and out to my PC through an SB Audugy input. I use GoldWave to record and edit the WAV file, and I use Groove Mechanic to clean the pops and clicks (it does a pretty good job too! - but it can't fix that Bad Company dissaster). All my records have been well maintained, all in their original sleeves, and stored at room temperature in the upright position

Thanks,
Buddy

I have been buying and using vinyl since 1967. I have found that with vary rare exceptions 45's are not worth the bother. At a time when awful pressing of LP's was normal 45's were relegated to an even worse quality level. I felt this way even before CD's and "perfect sound forever". If you can't or won't spring for a vacuum cleaner the Alsop Orbitrac is the next best thing. Go to www.recorddoctor.com for a full selection of vinyl accessories.Incidently noise mostly in or confined to one channel was/is caused by an incorrect anti skating adjustment. This will generally be in the left channel. I have also found that copying LP's to CD-R using one of my PC's does work but something is lost in the conversion. The good sounding vinyl always sounds better that the converted CD-R. I have a dozen or so recordings purchased on vinyl and CD, in every instance the LP sounds better. This is one of the reasons I still play vinyl. The other reason being, a lot of my 2K plus vinyl collection will never be available on CD unless I record them to CD-R myself. I use a VPI HW-19Jr/Rega RB300/Ortofon or Shure. The Jr. is no longer stock. It is 85% to being a HW-19