Raspy Vinyl Record Help

[DnnRe8]

I just found this forum, I didn't know there was anything out there about old technology equipment. I read the leading post in this thread about a member having questions regarding recording his vinyl recordings onto CD's. I have questions about this procedure. First I didn't know it could be done. I have a large collection of LP's and reel/reel tapes that I made from these records. I will soon be moving into a travel trailer for full time living and won't have room for the old equipment that I have. Also, some of it has been damaged by a power surge, so it probably is not worth fixing, I don't know. However, I do have this large collection of music that I would like to transfer to CD's, but, as I said I didn't think that this was possible. If I can record this music to CD's my problem would be solved, as a decent CD system is not too pricey. Can anyone tell me the method of transfering the music from vinyl or tape onto CD's? What equipment would I have to buy? Is it a technical nightmare to do the transfer, and are the results worthwhile? In the original post on this thread the writer speaks of an "SB Audugy Input", "Gold wave" and WAV file. I have no idea what these things are, and my computer savy is little better than just getting on the internet and searching for things, mainly using the compter as a reference source. I don't know if it can be done with my computer also. It is a Gateway 600 Notebook computer. It has a single disc drive, but with the Roxio program I can make copies of CDs. If anyone out there can help me I would really appreciate it, since I hate to loose all of the music that I have on records and tapes. Most of the albums wee bought in the 70's and 80's, and I doubt that this music would be available on CD's today, plus the cost to replace all of it in CD's would be very high. I talked with a kid at a Radio Shack and asked him if I could do what I am proposing, but he was only about 20 years old and had not even heard of the artists and the records that I have in my collection. I doubt that he ever has seen a 33 1/3 or 45 record. Well that's about it. I am hoping that someone out there can provide me some basic help. From the posts that I have read on this forum it appears that there are a lot of knowledgeable people participating. And I can say with certainty that they know a lot more about the subject than I do, as I didn't even think such a thing was possible. Thanks for any help given. DGR

[JoeE SP9]

Does your laptop have a line level input? If it does simply connect a tape out connection from your receiver to the line level input on your PC. The cable would have RCA jacks on one end and a 1/8" mini jack on the other. If you only have a mic input you will need a cable with a matching transformer built in. Rat Shack used to carry this sort of thing. They may not anymore since they are moving upscale.

[royphil345]

I get very good results using my computer. Do it mostly for playing the CDs in the car. The CDs sound better than cassette tapes made on my stereo's tape deck. A better sound card in the computer (SoundBlaster Audigy is one) can yield better results, though in a laptop you can't really change the sound card unless you add an external one. If you have problems with background noise or bad sound, you may want to consider that. Will probably turn out that the laptop's built-in sound works well enough.

I think that most laptops only have a mic input and no line-in. Though, I think that the mic input is the same sensitivity as the line-in on most computers as long as the microphone boost is turned off in the Windows mixer (hence the need for the mic boost). Shouldn't need a transformer. Could hook a tape deck straight in. Or a turntable with a phono stage. If you're using the built-in phono stage of a preamp or receiver, you could use the tape out jacks from there. Just need the stereo 1/8" plug (for the mic / line-in input) to dual rca jacks adapter from Radio Shack.

There are many programs that can be used for CD recording / editing. I think the easiest one to start with is CD Wave Editor. It is very simple and no-frills. Has a recorder to record from the mic or line-in input to the hard drive in CD quality wav files. And a very simple and fast editor to split your recordings into tracks (so your CD isn't a long track 1). Have an older shareware version. Would be willing to share it. There are more advanced recording / editing programs with filters for reducing tape hiss and record pops etc... (GoldWave), but they can take a little longer to get the hang of. From there you just use your Roxio program. Add your wav tracks to create a music CD.

I think that should be enough to give you a general idea of how it's done. Let me know if there's any part of the process you still need help with.

[JoeE SP9]

I have been using Exact Audio Copy. A freeware app that I tried after John Atkinson mentioned it in Stereophile. It has some very nice features.

[NuttyBuddy]

Hi all.

Update. I went with the Ortofon OMP 5E cartridge. I haven't done much vinyl playing since, but some tests resulted in a fuller richer sound. The problem records still had their problems, as I expected. I'm not recording to CD again until I resolve the cleaning issue (with myself). I'm workin on it. Thanks for all your input!

As far as converting vinyl to CD. I find it easy and convenient. I can tell no difference in my played vinyl and the resulting WAV file I record on my desktop PC - granted I'm not a clear eared audiophile. I hear no added noise or hum. Very clean to me.

I use a SoundBalster Audigy (1) in my desktop. My computer hooks to the receiver to the tape in and outs. This allows me to play any sound input to my desktop (like a midi keyboard) out through my receiver while allowing me to input anything hooked to my receiver into my desktop. I have a tape deck that inputs only into my receiver so i can record my old tapes to CD also. Oh, and did I say I have a turntable?

I use GoldWave software to record the vinyl into my PC and save it as A WAV file. I tested many free and shareware and decided to pay the, I believe, $40 one time fee for GoldWave. It offers free upgrades which I have done several times. It's easy to record a complete album and then break up the selections as individual pieces. You can easily trim the noisy lead ins and fade out the endings to eliminate that noise (which I do after recording the "raw" WAV file mentioned below but before the click cleaning).

I then archive that "raw" WAV file to a CD as is and store it away.

I then go another step with the WAV file in the desktop and clean it up with Coyote Groove Mechanic software. That program is simply amazing in clearing out noise, pops and clicks in decent condition vinyl. It can't fix those bad ones I sampled in my opening post with constant noise and crackles, but for the occasional clicks and pops it is fantastic. I also tested other free and shareware offerings and found Groove Mechanic to work the best. GoldWave also has integrated a click and pop fixer, but it didn't work as well (back when I bought it). It may be better now, but I've had no reason to try it. The cleaned up finished product is what I record to another CD which is the one I put in my home CD changers.

I have two Sony 400 CD changers that work in tandem. I often play my selections on CD, recorded and regular, randomly between the two changers. The changers offer the ability to alternate allowing no time lag between songs. You can even have the changers fade out one song while the other changer fades in the next selection - totally randomly. I think that's cool!

[DnnRe8]

Does your laptop have a line level input? If it does simply connect a tape out connection from your receiver to the line level input on your PC. The cable would have RCA jacks on one end and a 1/8" mini jack on the other. If you only have a mic input you will need a cable with a matching transformer built in. Rat Shack used to carry this sort of thing. They may not anymore since they are moving upscale.

Thanks for your reply to my inquiry. As I said in my original post I am not very computer savy, and therefore find the need to ask for more information about this subject. My laptop does have a microphone jack and also a line in jack. Excuse my ignorance, but I am trying to understand what you wrote about. Both my turntable and my tape deck have 2 line RCA output jacks. Therefore each of the lines has 2 wires in it, for a total of four wires in the 2 RCA jacks. My computer line in jack and microphone jack both accept a 1/8 mini jack. All of the cables that I have with the 1/8" mini jacks are in effect 2 wires. Does the 1/8' mini jack that you suggested actually have four wires connected to it(bundled into one cable) then transition to 2 separate RCA jacks in order to provide a right and a left channel. I don't know if I am explaining this correctly. I guess what I am asking is does the 1/8" mini jack that you refer to have 4 contacts positions along the jack to enable the 2 connections for the right channel and the 2 connections for the left channel? If so I did't know that they made such a setup. I picture, in my mind, what you are describing as a 1/8" mini jack connected to a cable, which spilits at some point to 2 separate cables each with a RCA jack at each end. Is this correct. Lastly, my compter is running Windows XP home edition, and I found in the manual a section on "Recording and playing audio". There are buttons on the front of the laptop that are labled "Audio DJ Controls", and I suppose these are used in making recordings. However I am getting beyond what can understnd already. If the description that I have given above concerning the 1/8" - RCA cables is correct, I would appreciate hearing from you. I can then know what to look for at Radio Shack or from some other source. Thanks DGR

[royphil345]

Yes, You use a STEREO 1/8" plug to 2 RCA jack adapter. Mine is actually a stereo 1/8" plug on about 3 feet of wire that Ys off into 2 RCA plugs that I have to use female to female RCA adapters on most of the time. All computers with stereo sound have stereo line-in and even mic jacks. The stereo 1/8" plug has 3 sections. 1 hot for each channel and a common ground. Don't worry about the common ground. If you look at the back of your stereo equipment, you'll probably see that the outer part of the RCA jacks are all touching the same metal mounting plate. (common ground there as well). These stereo 1/8" plugs and the small stereo cables they're attached to are used on the headphones for portable CD players, radios, mp3 players, etc...

As far as the Windows recorder goes, I don't use it, don't know much about it. I know in the older versions of Windows it could only record up to the capacity of your memory (wouldn't write to the hard drive). Don't know if that's been changed or not in XP.

You are going to need a program to divide your recording into CD tracks anyway (avoiding CDs that have only a very long track 1). All of the programs I know of that do this have a built-in recorder as well. Still recommend "CD Wave Editor" as one that is VERY fast and easy to use. Still willing to share my shareware copy if interested.

The "Windows DJ" thing sounds like a group of shortcut buttons added by the laptop manufacturer. Probably has controls for volume and controlling the functions of Windows Media Player etc... You probably won't need that.

What you will need is the controls in your Windows Audio Mixer. There may be a small icon that looks like a speaker in your System Tray (lower right-hand corner of screen in Taskbar). If there isn't, you need to go to My Computer / Change a Setting / Sounds, Speech, and Audio Devices / Sounds and Audio Devices .... Then check the box that says "Place volume icon in the taskbar". Double clicking on this little speaker icon will open the Windows Audio Mixer.

When the mixer opens you'll see your settings for playback. If you go to Options / Properties in the upper-left hand corner of the mixer, you can select Recording and see how your mixer is set for recording. Select the check box for the source you want to record from and set the recording level for that source. That's all there really is to it. Some recorder programs will even select the correct source in the mixer for you and provide a control for your recording level. Making it unnecessary to even open the mixer.

Let me know if you want to try "CD Wave Editor". Could probably find a place on the web to put it up for you to download. It's not a large file.

Let me know the next time you get stuck. Though, I expect you to at least get it hooked up this time!!! ... just kidding

[DnnRe8]

My thanks to you Royphil345. It has been a couple of days since I visited this site, so I just read your response to my question today. You cleared up a lot of questions for me. I printed out a copy of your post so that I could follow the instructions that you gave. Being computer challanged, I was none the less even able to find the mixer window that you wrote about. To do what I want to do I will probably need a copy of the "CD Wave Editor" that you suggested. If you are willing to share it and put it on the web, would you please give me instructions on how to download it also. I have never downloaded anything onto my computer, and don't know how to do it. I guess I will try to find the stereo to RCA adaptor wires and jacks. I'll try radio shack, but they may not have it. Thanks once again for your help. DGR

[royphil345]

OK... Here it is http://uploads.savefile.com/redir/106195.zip
Just click on this link. Then, click on the small link in the bottom yellow box where it says "download/show the hosted file", select save, select somewhere to save the file where you'll be able to find it. Just double click on CD Wav162.exe to install the program. To use the program, find it in your start button menu under programs.

Should be able to find that cable at Radio Shack or Best Buy.

Actually, can't find a stereo 1/8" to RCA JACKS adapter. Might have to go with the stereo 1/8" to RCA PLUGS adapter http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=42%2D2551 and use the female to female RCA adapters when necessary, like I do. http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=274%2D874 (that's a pack of 2)

Also found these at Best Buy.com.

Since you have a laptop, you'll probably be able to get close enough to your stereo equipment to plug the RCA plugs straight into the tape-outs on the receiver or tape deck and not need the adapters. I need an extra patch cord between my stereo and computer, which is why I always end up needing the female to female adapters.

[DnnRe8]

Thank you Royphil345 for your detailed and very helpful instuctions. I downloaded a copy of the program onto a CD, and I am going to download it directly to my computer. I have to wait for a friend of mine to come over to help me do this. The reason is that I want to be able to find it on my computer when I want to use it, an I am not sure where to download it to. I have one more dumb question for you. My turntable is an old AR (I think XB) model. Do I have to buy a phono pre-amp and connect this between the turntable and the computer, or can I just go with the connections that you described? I was searching on e-bay, and came across someone who was selling a whole set-up, pre-amp and adapter cables, instructions, etc. on converting vinyl to CD. I think the price was around $25 or so, I'm not sure. It had a Bozok Madisson phono pre-amlifier in the package. If I need a pre-amp would this be an appropriate type, or is it just an e-bay listing rip-off, as sometimes happens. Thanks. DGR

[royphil345]

Probably a moving magnet magnetic cartridge in your turntable. In this case, it's plugged into an input in your preamp/receiver marked phono. If you plug it into a tape-in or aux.-in, you'll barely be able to hear it.

If this is correct, it means that the turntable is using a built-in phono preamp in your preamp/receiver. You can record using this preamp simply by connecting the tape-out jacks from your preamp/receiver to your computer, making sure phono is selected on the preamp/receiver when you want to record. The built in preamp is likely of higher quality than the Bozak one.

If for some reason you wanted to hook the turntable up away from your stereo system, you would need a preamp between the turntable and computer. The least expensive one I recommend is this one. http://www.audioreplay.net/tc750pp.html It's a steal at that price. Sounds 99% as good as some $200.00 preamps I've heard. This same unit is sold under a couple other brand names for about $80.00 (Rek-O-Kut is one I remember). Also comes with the cables you'd need.

I'd shy away from most of the phono preamps cheaper than this. You'll notice that the signal to noise specs are terrible (around 50dB) and they won't even give you the specs on how accurate the RIAA EQ is. (The one I recommended above comes to within + - .5 dB, matching the specs of many more expensive preamps) The one above also uses an outboard power supply which makes it quieter. Wouldn't say the eBay "cheapies" are a rip-off. Just a good example of "you get what you pay for".

[DnnRe8]

Thank you Ronphil345. You are quite correct about the magnetic cartridge, and the hook up that are on my reciever. It is an old Pioneer sx-838. If I remember correctly the pre-amp can be disconnected from the amp, by removing a set of what look like wide "U" shaped wires, about the thickness of a coathanger. You have been very good at answering my questions, and even anticipating the things that I forgot to mention in my post. Once again thank you very much. DGR

[BRANDONH]

Hi Brandonh,

Thanks,

How would the Gruv-Glide results compare to the Nitty Gritty and Disk Doctor cleaning solutions? Pretty close? Geez, Royphil just uses dish soap and tap water!

When I first recommended it Id read good reviews about this product but was skeptical; so many companies claim that their product is best. I play my vinyl records sometimes at very high volumes 800-1000 watts and on occasion I would get feed back through the turntable. So I asked a friend who is a DJ what he did to prevent feedback. He highly recommended Gruv-Glide. So I bought it. I first applied to an clean but older album. I noticed less pops & clicks almost a 50% reduction and greater dynamics. So then applied it to one of my pristine halfspeed mastered LPs. Although my audiophile records have very little surface noise before the treatment, once the record was treated the surface noise all but disappeared. The music sounded as close to live as I have ever heard my turntable produce. The vocalization and instrumentation was MUCH clearer and the overall sound was cleaner and very pleasing plus I could not get the system to feedback at all.
I can unequivocally recommend this product with out any reservation what so ever! Once Gruv-Glide is applied to your favorite albums you will hear stuff that was literally hidden in the grooves that you may have never knew was there at all. Gruv-Glide it is a must have if you enjoy playing vinyl you will not regret it.

[piece-it pete]

This inconsistency and variability is both the beauty and the curse of vinyl.

Hey Wooch, I didn't know you were a poet!


Nutty, The only thing I have to add here is that I use a manual cleaning device called a "spin clean" available here:

http://www.garage-a-records.com/spin.html

I have had GREAT results with it, particularly since I ditched their drying cloths and bought a few 3M "Microfiber" tack cloths at Walmarts' hardware section. I have cleaned at least 400 lps' with it, along with a couple of 45s'. If it still sounds like crap after cleaning you're prolly out of luck. I've ditched a few lps' that broke my heart, but what can you do?

I do plan on trying Gruv-Glide shortly, both for better sound and to protect my favorite lps' from overplay damage, which I've heard tell it helps.

Have fun. Too bad about the promo Beatles!! But who knew.

Pete

[Dave Lindhorst]

Before you go out and purchase a variety of cleaning and conditioning products I would suggest making sure your turntable is set up properly. Every angle created by the relationship between the LP and the needle is of paramount importance. Lots of places have an audio store where someone is capable of setting up a tone arm properly. They will ensure the height is correct the cartridge is installed properly and the overhang is correct. My turntable arm has a height adjustment you can do on the fly and that raspiness can be induced by having the arm too high or too low. Start with the basics (setup) and work from there. You may find that this alone will cure the problem. Hope this helps somewhat.

[Reticuli]

What you're getting is probably not noise from grime in the record grooves. It's distortion. It's either tracking distortion from an improperly setup cart, poor arm geometry, poor bearings or gymbal, improper cartridge-phono stage matching (clipping), or just a poor quality cartridge. Since you say this was a problem from the beginning with the new records and the new cartridge from the early days, it cannot be grime or a worn stylus. You'll probably notice a change in the amount of distortion depending on whether you're at the beginning of the record or end, and depending on the loudness that the original record was mastered/cut/pressed to/at.

[NuttyBuddy]

What you're getting is probably not noise from grime in the record grooves. It's distortion. It's either tracking distortion from an improperly setup cart, poor arm geometry, poor bearings or gymbal, improper cartridge-phono stage matching (clipping), or just a poor quality cartridge. Since you say this was a problem from the beginning with the new records and the new cartridge from the early days, it cannot be grime or a worn stylus. You'll probably notice a change in the amount of distortion depending on whether you're at the beginning of the record or end, and depending on the loudness that the original record was mastered/cut/pressed to/at.

Update after 4 years:

Yep. It is distortion from the turntable. Replacing the original Pioneer cartridge with an Ortofon cartridge did not remedy the problem. The raspy sound only occurred, to my ear, on a few certain records, usually on 45s when it did happen. I rarely heard it on LPs so I thought it was the records.

Last week I bought an inexpensive Audio-Technica USB turntable (AT-LP2D-USB) for converting my record collection to digital and magically that raspy sound is gone on those problem records. The sound is very good also. I'm using the RCA outs rather than the USB and feeding the audio straight into my PC's Audigy sound card. The turntable has a built-in pre-amp or it can be switched to phono output. There is no ground on the RCA outs of the turntable and I get a minor hum if I route it through my receiver and then to the PC. The USB audio is good but had high peak levels. I could not find a way to adjust the USB levels.

I guess when you go for a P-Mount turntable, you're at the mercy of the manufacturer to have the tone arm set properly. There's nothing that can be adjusted if you ever find the need to do so. Of course, my new Audio-Technica is just as unadjustable, but it was inexpensive and had good reviews for my designated purpose of recording to digital.

[Reticuli]

Ortofons often have the exact same frequency intermodulation distortion problems as your original cartridge, so yeah, that wouldn't have fixed fim-d if that was the problem. Audio Technicas tend to have very good fim-d tolerance, so that would explain your improvement. Grado and the Stanton 680 line are also very low distortion carts when set up right. Grado uses very odd internal design that gives it a strange, deep, warm, forgiving sound and the best you get is usually with low pF phono stages. The 680 wants a high pF phono stage and will tend to roll off even then in the highs. I adore the lows and mids on the 680 ellipticals when it's matched to the right phono pre, though. And on bright records, wow, it sounds nice. The old HiFi tip was a favorite of mine for balancing everything right, but is now discontinued. Any of the 680 ellipticals with an output between 1 and 4mV, though, on that other table of yours would probably sound nice. Or get another Audio Technica, like the newest 440ml series.

Update after 4 years:

Yep. It is distortion from the turntable. Replacing the original Pioneer cartridge with an Ortofon cartridge did not remedy the problem. The raspy sound only occurred, to my ear, on a few certain records, usually on 45s when it did happen. I rarely heard it on LPs so I thought it was the records.

Last week I bought an inexpensive Audio-Technica USB turntable (AT-LP2D-USB) for converting my record collection to digital and magically that raspy sound is gone on those problem records. The sound is very good also. I'm using the RCA outs rather than the USB and feeding the audio straight into my PC's Audigy sound card. The turntable has a built-in pre-amp or it can be switched to phono output. There is no ground on the RCA outs of the turntable and I get a minor hum if I route it through my receiver and then to the PC. The USB audio is good but had high peak levels. I could not find a way to adjust the USB levels.

I guess when you go for a P-Mount turntable, you're at the mercy of the manufacturer to have the tone arm set properly. There's nothing that can be adjusted if you ever find the need to do so. Of course, my new Audio-Technica is just as unadjustable, but it was inexpensive and had good reviews for my designated purpose of recording to digital.

[emesbee]

I have copied quite a number of LP records and cassettes to CD. I have an M-Audio 2496 sound card, and have also used an Import USB connected device, both with quite good results. The Import device comes with data capture and basic editing software.

I have used a number of tools for removing pops and crackles and audio editing. Currently using Magix audio cleaning tools, which seems quite good. There are a number of freeware programs available too. Audacity is one such, although its not all that intuitive to use.

After editing, track splitting etc, I use Nero to burn to CD.

[squeegy200]

I have copied quite a number of LP records and cassettes to CD. I have an M-Audio 2496 sound card, and have also used an Import USB connected device, both with quite good results. The Import device comes with data capture and basic editing software.

I have used a number of tools for removing pops and crackles and audio editing. Currently using Magix audio cleaning tools, which seems quite good. There are a number of freeware programs available too. Audacity is one such, although its not all that intuitive to use.

After editing, track splitting etc, I use Nero to burn to CD.

After trying several applications, PCs, and soundcards, I've seemed to have taken the same journey as emesbee.

I presently use a Macbook with a USB capture interface. the outputs from my tape out (Or outputs from phono stage) plug directly into the interface and present the signal to my Macbooks sound card. I've been using Audacity to capture the audio, to edit and to convert to WAV files. I then use NERO to burn the selections to CD.

This has resulted in the best audio quality thus far from all the other alternatives I've tried. It is labor intensive cutting the tracks and arranging from the Audacity raw files. But the resulting files seem to retain much of the dynamics and fidelity that was on the original vinyl.

[emesbee]

I use the software that came with the Inport device to do track splitting, even if I used a different method for the data capture. The Inport software is fairly basic, but sometimes that is better. Its very easy to use and does the job quite well. I was also using it for cleaning up pops and crackles, but the Magix software seems to do a better job, so I use that now instead.

eg: I have used Audacity to capture the audio through my sound card, cleaned up the audio using Magix software, used the Inport software to do track splitting, then Nero for the final burn. Sometimes I use Audacity or some other freeware tools I've downloaded to do some more specific editing. (Getting complicated, I know.)

[NuttyBuddy]

I find a great software combination to be GoldWave for capturing/recording with a ton of editing features, and Groove Mechanic to eliminate pops/clicks and surface hiss. I am amazed at how well Groove Mechanic cleans up the trash on my records. They both cost up front, but in my opinion, are well worth the small cost, and both offer free lifetime upgrades.