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  1. #1
    Forum Regular nobody's Avatar
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    Pro-Ject line of turntables perhaps?

    I am looking to try out a new turntable after living with and enjoying an older Technics Direct Drive model, SL-Q3 for a few years. I always enjoyed the Technics for its auto shutoff when I feel like falling asleep with music playing, but I am awaiting a refurbished Dual right now that I want to use for 78s and which I can also use when I feel like I need something automatic. I'd like to try out something simpler in a manual table for my main listening and have been looking at the lower models of the Pro-ject line as I don't have a ton to spend.

    I see a lot of the Debuts around for good prices, and there is the new-ish Genie model which I am uncertain about as it sells for more than the debut in the US, but less than the Debut in the UK. I do like the look of the Genie, but it it is going to sound the same or worse than a lower model, I'm not sure it is a good idea. Also, seems there are plenty of deals on the Debut models, but I'm only seeing full-price genies domestically.

    The other idea is to wait and see if I can come across a model a bit higher up used. I guess I am wondering if it is worth maybe tossing in another 1 or 2 hundred dollars and looking at a model just about the debut or perhaps a used Music Hall 5.0 or 5.1 if a bargain comes across. Am I really getting that much more to wait and/or spend a bit more?

    I plan on sticking with the Denon 103 and Denon transformer I am already using so the cartridge doesn't matter if I buy used.

    Any suggestions? Just grab a Debut? Wait for something higher up the line to show up used? (And no, not another Technics. I like the one I have fine and all, just wanting a bit of a change. Other non-vintage suggestions welcome, but I'm not really handy and figure one vintage table will be enough for me.)

  2. #2
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Here's an interesting thread about the Debuts.

    http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=38554
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  3. #3
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Hey nobody.

    The Genie was released in N America relatively recent. Until that point, it was in their Euro line. That said, this is why you're not finding them used. If you hit the net, like Ebay, you can find them selling used out of Europe. I have heard all of these tables.

    Truthfully, I was dissapointed in the Genie. I mean, I loved the look of it, and the design seemed superb. Lots of trickle down concepts from the higher end tables. The only question was the S-arm. Sure enough, when it came time to listen, that arm was a huge let down.

    Firstly I listened to the Genie against the Debut and frankly, I found they were a bit different, but not particualrily better than one another. Now...we pulled out the Expression Mahogany and boom!! The Expression easily bested both tables and was delivering some real music.

    In the Pro-Ject line, once you hit the tables with the carbon arm, the 9cc, you're in for some music. I think you should most definitely save a bit more and aim for something along the lines of the Expression/Music hall 5.1. Definitely check the used market and save some cash.

    Y'know, I had a deck just like yours and when I finally moved up...I was in shock. I know you love the music and the gear is just a means to an end, but Davey...you owe it to yourself to move up the ladder just one more rung. I promise you once you do, you will thank me and your love of analog will be reaffirmed. I think you should do this thing right, and then sit pretty for years to come. Dude I haven't had a want for gear in quite a while.

    I think a nice option as opposed to the newer decks would be any of the older suspension decks with a nice arm on it. They can be found for a steal and sound superb.

    Anyhow I hope I wasn't too overbearing...keep in touch.

  4. #4
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    I hate to be a one note member but how about a used Rega Planar 2? The table is good as is and their are many after market parts to improve the performance if you become interested. Many use and enjoy the table as Rega designed it.

    I had a Thorens that was made by Project. I had troubles with the electronics for the motor and after the second time out for repair the table was returned and the tonearm was loose in it's four point bearing housing. That is why I am biased against Project manufactured tables.

    The Rega Planar2 has operated flawlessly for over a dozen years. I should add in spite of all I have done to it.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  5. #5
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    No you're right John, I think all decks which fall under his budget should gain consideration. Perhaps on the used market, he can find a modded Rega 2 for the same cash. It's certainly not a purchase to be hasty about.

    Hey are you the same John I used to chat with on here? How the hell are ya?! Lol. John I need to PM you about our "arrangement", no not the one where I where the mask.

  6. #6
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppachubby View Post
    No you're right John, I think all decks which fall under his budget should gain consideration. Perhaps on the used market, he can find a modded Rega 2 for the same cash. It's certainly not a purchase to be hasty about.

    Hey are you the same John I used to chat with on here? How the hell are ya?! Lol. John I need to PM you about our "arrangement", no not the one where I where the mask.


    I am learning about the world through my dog's perspective. I must say it is nice coming home and having him there and so glad to see me. I finally have something young and cute willing to sit in my lap and give me kisses.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  7. #7
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    I agree with the idea of buying used and also with the idea of moving up just a little beyond the bottom rung. I have a Debut III (for the wife) and for a year or two I had a Music Hall MMF-5. The MMF-5 was absolutely superior. Pro-Ject's Xpression turntables are also worth the step up. As mentioned already, the P2 is nice option, as are Rega's clones re-badged for NAD and Goldring.

    If I had the budget for a Debut III and definitely wanted new, I'd probably save a bit more and go for the Rega RP1. If that wasn't an option for whatever reason, I'd go with the Debut III and be happy. A word of warning, though...some people find they actually prefer the turntable they "upgraded" from.

  8. #8
    RGA
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    I liked the Project Debut a lot better than my NAD 533 - which is a Rega P2 clone made by Rega - same exact table same exact tone arm Project to me sounded much better.

    But frankly if I could do it all over again - I would skip all of these middle of the road tables. I would go right to an Audio Note TT1 as basically the very entry level turntable I would be willing to go to. Sure it costs more but it can also be the last table you'll own. $900 for an older series version (they sell both currently) isn't crazy money. Comes with a turbo charged Rega 250. May get it cheaper since Audio Note is no longer going to use the Rega 250 tone arms so they may be a bit of a deal. They like the SME arms as an upgrade over their own and offer a rewire kit for them, and they have their new tone arms which are apparently very inexpensive for the quality they're offering. Well according to forums in the UK where people have had a chance at them.

    The TT1 is such a massive upgrade over the likes of Rega and Project that I'd skip that step. There are other fine tables - but to me I always felt something lacking with those inexpensive tables and I wanted more and more. The TT2 system I have is to a point where I don't feel like I want more - there is more mind you. But I am not at a point where I say - gee I need more of this or more of that. With the Nad and duals and others I always grumbled that something was wrong. I felt that with the Clearaudio Emotion, Roksan Radius 5 and several other pricey decks. I'd definitely try a suspended turntable of high quality. The TT1 would be as entry level as I would go. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...udiophile4.htm

  9. #9
    Forum Regular nobody's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think I'm looking to start saving a bit more and keeping my eyes peeled for a good used deal. I'm interested in getting into something new, but I don't want to just spend a few hundred bucks on something that doesn't show much improvement when being patient can yield better results.

    I can't say I don't like the notion of grabbing something like an older Thorens and putting a higher end arm on it, but I really do have a bit of a craving for something a but more modern since pretty much every table I have owned has fallen in the vintage category.

  10. #10
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    You could put a Moth Arm1 (Rega RB251) tonearm on a turntable like this VPI HW19 II and have a nice setup.

  11. #11
    Do What? jrhymeammo's Avatar
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    Hey there, nobody.
    It's been a while, huh?

    Here is something you might want to check.
    If I remember correctly, the Debut's platter is made of steel and LOMCs' strong magnet will stick..
    If strong enough, I would be worried that it will damage the Denon's suspension. Also, the tonearm may not have enough mass for the Denon's low compliance.

    I'm sure some would say it would work just fine, but I would look for something different.
    Just my 2 cents...

    PS - I thought you had a fully automatic Thorens?

  12. #12
    Do What? jrhymeammo's Avatar
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    I like 02audionoob's suggestion.
    If you are going to stick with Denon 103, then I would be interested in a SA-250S or SA-750D as well.

  13. #13
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02audionoob View Post
    You could put a Moth Arm1 (Rega RB251) tonearm on a turntable like this VPI HW19 II and have a nice setup.


    Depending on the age of the table you might need the RB250 if it is designed for the original mount. My RB250 tonearm has improved greatly with the Incognito rewire but as important was the Michell Tecnoweight counterweight. The improvement in tracking is incredible. Oh and never use the Rega cartridge alignment.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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  14. #14
    Forum Regular nobody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrhymeammo View Post
    Just my 2 cents...

    PS - I thought you had a fully automatic Thorens?
    Yeah, then that got damaged in a move and I went with the Technics I am using now.

    And I appreciate all the suggestions, looks like a bit of saving and waiting is best here.

  15. #15
    Vinyl Fundamentalist Forums Moderator poppachubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobody View Post
    Yeah, then that got damaged in a move and I went with the Technics I am using now.

    And I appreciate all the suggestions, looks like a bit of saving and waiting is best here.
    This is the stage where auditioning and research would be a good idea too. Familiarize yourself with the market so when the time comes, you will be an authority on what you need.

  16. #16
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Hey nobody....what part of the country do you live in? Are you any where close to St. Louis?

    My dealer sells out of his house after closing his store. So that means no over head and he can beat every one around here on prices. I have one audio buddy over at Audiokarma come down from Ohio and purchase a mmf-7.1 with Cart because he could find no dealer up there, and my dealer was able to be online prices. I know as a fact my dealer has a demo mmf-5.1 besides new ones.

    And right now as I type this, there is a mmf-5 with a gold ring cart for sell on audiogon for $349.
    Last edited by frenchmon; 08-01-2011 at 11:34 AM.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  17. #17
    Forum Regular nobody's Avatar
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    I am actually in St. Louis, and I saw and was thinking about that MMF 5.0. Curious what the difference is between that and the 5.1. I'm seeing dramatic differences in the price used between those but no idea if the difference in performance is huge as well.

    This thread has me kinda convinced to save and look around a bit. I'd hate to bother a dealer, especially one who would have to make a special appointment, if I'm not ready to buy yet. But eventually that could be a good option because otherwise I am just flying blind with online suggestions and not actually laying hands on anything. I could possibly save myself a whole lot of hassle and uncertainty, and maybe disappointment if I took a chance on the wrong something, by being able to actually get a look and listen to something.

  18. #18
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobody View Post
    I am actually in St. Louis, and I saw and was thinking about that MMF 5.0. Curious what the difference is between that and the 5.1. I'm seeing dramatic differences in the price used between those but no idea if the difference in performance is huge as well.

    This thread has me kinda convinced to save and look around a bit. I'd hate to bother a dealer, especially one who would have to make a special appointment, if I'm not ready to buy yet. But eventually that could be a good option because otherwise I am just flying blind with online suggestions and not actually laying hands on anything. I could possibly save myself a whole lot of hassle and uncertainty, and maybe disappointment if I took a chance on the wrong something, by being able to actually get a look and listen to something.
    What??? You live in St.Louis? Did Peabody know that? Where bouts?

    Hey I got the hook up for you with a spanking brand new mmf-5.1 or the Se or any of the Music Hall tables if you are interested. Shoot me a PM if you are.

    And I can actually meet you over at my dealers house to take a listen to the 5.1 and if you like, he can sell you the demo or a brand new one with or without cart...all at below cost.

    The difference would be the arms...the 5.1 has fiber glass where as the 5 has metal. I also think the 5 has a different platter...the 5.1 has a glass platter. audionoob actually had the mmf-5 and really liked it alot. But keep in mind the 5 has had motor issues. noob relaced the motor in his. The only problem is buying used, you may be getting some other persons problem seeing the 5 has had issues. With a new one you get warranty. Pro-ject has come out with a fix for those who have problems and they are installing them already on the new Debut tables from what I understand. I assume it trickles over to the Music Hall tables, but am not sure.

    So let me know if you are interested.


    So thats you , me, Peabody and misstl who all live in St. Louis....thats good.
    Last edited by frenchmon; 08-01-2011 at 12:46 PM.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  19. #19
    Forum Regular nobody's Avatar
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    I'm on the south side, not too far from Bevo Mill. I'll shoot ya a message.

  20. #20
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobody View Post
    I'm on the south side, not too far from Bevo Mill. I'll shoot ya a message.
    Wow...im actually in St. Charles....you are very close to Peabody. He is off of Gavois.. Shoot...you and I can meet at peabodys one Saturday night.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  21. #21
    Forum Regular nobody's Avatar
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    I drive down Gravois to work and back every day.

  22. #22
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobody View Post
    I drive down Gravois to work and back every day.
    I'll give Peabody a call and see if we can all meet at his place maybe Saturday night if you are good with that?
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  23. #23
    Forum Regular nobody's Avatar
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    All booked up this weekend. But, I'd be fine with a gathering sometime.

  24. #24
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobody View Post
    All booked up this weekend. But, I'd be fine with a gathering sometime.
    Thats cool and it was a short noticed as well so, my bad....im headed over there any ways with my Vincent to see how it performs compared to his high dollar Conrad Johnson preamp.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  25. #25
    Forum Regular nobody's Avatar
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    Sounds like you two have some gear I'd be curious to hear as I've never done much listening to stuff in that range before. Drop me a PM sometime when you two are going to be listening again.

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