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Say frenchmon...if you add a little tracking force you might improve the bass situation.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02audionoob
Say frenchmon...if you add a little tracking force you might improve the bass situation.
Yeah I did...but its just a bad pressing I believe.
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It's hard to say whether the cartridge was setup properly by the seller, but I wouldn't make any arbitrary changes to the cart and tonearms.
With that said, I believe tonearm counterweight must've been disassembled from the arm prior to packaging. Did you have to place the counterweight to the end of the arm yourself?
If so, how did you setup your VTF(Verticle Tracking Force)?
If you want to start buying LP and preserve ones you already have, then you will need to get a stylus force gauge. Just make sure to keep your Tonearm and Plinth leveled before taking a measurement. You can still get a Shure gauge for $24 (not $36) if you look around.
I'm not sure how your tonearm VTA is setup. Do you think you can post a picture of your tonearm cued down on a LP?
JRA
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There's nothing "arbitrary" about increasing the tracking force as a method of improving the sound. It can help in many cases and does not require a separate gauge.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02audionoob
There's nothing "arbitrary" about increasing the tracking force as a method of improving the sound. It can help in many cases and does not require a separate gauge.
If you are playing by the ear then I guess you are not wrong, but I do think it's a bad advice.
If a listener likes how music sounds with say 5grams of VTF, then I couldn't be happier for him, but I will never buy used LP from this guy.
You are not still setting up cartridges based on what it says on a counterweight grid, are you? If not, would you?
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I disagree with you on the significance of the issue. 100%. If you set up the turntable to the exact force recommended by the manufacturer, and you know you have exactly the right number, you still need to adjust by ear to get the best sound. It therefore did you little good to know the exact number.
By the way...the MMF-2.1 isn't capable of applying 5 grams and records are more easily damaged by too little tracking force than too much. You can exaggerate with absurd numbers like that if you want to, but I can tell you it's common advice in the audio world to use more force than the exact optimum recommended by the cartridge manufacturer. And it works.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02audionoob
I disagree with you on the significance of the issue. 100%. If you set up the turntable to the exact force recommended by the manufacturer, and you know you have exactly the right number, you still need to adjust by ear to get the best sound. It therefore did you little good to know the exact number.
The only cartridge company that I know suggest definite tracking force is The Cartridge Man. I think it's at 1.595g, but most of cartridge manufacturers suggest 0.3g+/- window of adjustment. Exact VFT is meaningless when considering external vibration. I'm sure internal vibration and LP warp alone will alter 0.005g of VFT.
But to suggest a newcomer to turn the knob is not a sensible advice. You are only suggesting to add VTF without knowing the starting point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 02audionoob
By the way...the MMF-2.1 isn't capable of applying 5 grams and records are more easily damaged by too little tracking force than too much.
I think you are wrong on this, and this is why people still rely on what counterweight reads. On a fixed counterweight setting, different cartridge weight will result to different VTF. I don't know this for a fact, but mounting a heavy cartridge with adjustment on a counterweight should exceed 5 grams of VTF.
Where you getting information that says MMF2.1 isn't capable of applying 5 grams of VTF?
Hey Noob, I'm really suprised to see your posts above. If anything I'm shocked.
Am I missing a joke from a different thread?
JRA
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The optimum tracking force for the mmf-2.1 is given in the manual as 1.75 grams, which is a common number that Goldring gives. If an mmf-2.1 owner sets up the turntable per the manual or has a professional do it for them, it will be at 1.75 grams. Moving up toward the higher end of the recommended range provides better tracking and less sibilance in many cases.
I have tried many times listening to my cartridges set to the exact force recommended by Goldring or at the exact center of the recommended range. I find I always eventually add at least 0.1 gram or even 0.15 gram. It adds to the sound very nicely. I'm not alone on this one. It's just real life. Read some of the forums with heavier analog activity and you see what I mean. The level of exactness you're suggesting is of little value. You're wasting your time. You can chase exactness all you want to, but many audiophiles are still setting the force to a different number than the manufacturer's recommendation, even if they use a scale.
As for whether the MMF-2.1 can or cannot apply 5 grams of force, try it for yourself. I don't think weight will turn in that far with a Tracker on it. I'll bet it stops at 4 grams or less. Maybe, maybe not. But your example is still absurd. I have also compared my tracking force to the results achieved with a Shure SFG-2 and a digital scale, and it really is accurate enough.
If you're going to accuse me of joking and giving bad advice, why not check and see if you know what you're talking about and let me know, ok?
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Hi JRA and noob...
I did place the weight on my self...it was simple. No VTA was needed according to the instruction book...it was set at the factory. Only if I change the cart will I need to set it. Where is the best place to buy a gauge, brush, cleaning fluids and so on?
noob I just now increased the tracking force from 1.75 Gms to 2Gms and the bass and overall presentation seems to have more texture to it while listening to Paul Desmond. JRA, I've lost my password to the online resource I was using to post pictures and I did password recovery but they have not sent a new password as of yet...as soon as I get my password I will post pictures.
Cheers...and continue to instruct me in vinyl and tables...you two alone with PoppaC are my learning resouce.
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Noob,
Before this thread turns into another "He said, She said", I'll say this.
If I had offended you, then I'm sorry. That wasn't my intent. As I told you, I think it's important for us to give proper advice to Frenchie, since he's been out of the water for decades. That's why I said it was a bad advice. If you had suggest me to increase VTF, I probably would've only turned a smidgit. Now, I don't want to to mislead others to think I'm now offending Frenchie here to say he would make full 360 degree turn on a counterweight. I'm positive Frenchy nows better but again, he's been away from the scene for 2+ decades. I think it was suggested by the community to align cartridge inward and apply as much pressure as possible back in the day. I'm probably being absurd here as well.
5g is indeed excessive, and I thought I made that clear. I'm not going to ask you to read between the lines, so I'll be sure to make it clear for all from now on.
P.S. I'm not going to get a MMF2.1 and a heavy cartridge just to see how quickly I can snap the cantilever.
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JRA, I don't know what that means, but I'll say this...You could learn some manners. Seriously.
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I'm not going to just agree with you to say I'm a jackass, because I don't think I was being a jack ass. But seems you were offended by my posts, so I'm sorry you felt that way.
Administrator,
This good thread was going well until this afternoon. Feel free to erase my posts before this thread gets locked.
JRA
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Hey fellas...speaking of the Ortofon 2M Red and 2M Blue... what does this mean?
"The 2M series is available in four different iterations, which are divided into two tiers. The 2M Red ($99) and Blue ($199) share the same plastic cartridge body and engine, but where the Red uses a standard elipitical stylus, the Blue employs a polished, nude elipitcal diamond."
Does this mean that one has some sort of covering while the other does not?
frenchmon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Hi JRA and noob...
I did place the weight on my self...it was simple. No VTA was needed according to the instruction book...it was set at the factory. Only if I change the cart will I need to set it. Where is the best place to buy a gauge, brush, cleaning fluids and so on?
noob I just now increased the tracking force from 1.75 Gms to 2Gms and the bass and overall presentation seems to have more texture to it while listening to Paul Desmond. JRA, I've lost my password to the online resource I was using to post pictures and I did password recovery but they have not sent a new password as of yet...as soon as I get my password I will post pictures.
Cheers...and continue to instruct me in vinyl and tables...you two alone with PoppaC are my learning resouce.
Hey Frenchie,
I usually get my supplies at Elusive Disc. I picked up a level a while back and recently I got a Clearaudio Diamond Stylus Brush and some stylus cleaning fluid. I'm really enjoying this thread. Picking up a lot of valuable info, as I know you are too.
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Here is a good link on all types of stylus.
As for the difference, I have no idea whether nude elliptical offers more contact surface when compared to its "clothed" cousin.
http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22894
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Hey, even if the 2.1 can't track to 5 grams it's nothing a few quarters and some tape can't fix :)
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I wonder how one of the old Eisenhower dollar coins would work. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Hey fellas...speaking of the Ortofon 2M Red and 2M Blue... what does this mean?
"The 2M series is available in four different iterations, which are divided into two tiers. The 2M Red ($99) and Blue ($199) share the same plastic cartridge body and engine, but where the Red uses a standard elipitical stylus, the Blue employs a polished, nude elipitcal diamond."
Does this mean that one has some sort of covering while the other does not?
frenchmon
The standard elliptical they're referring to is a diamond bonded to a metal shank. The nude elliptical is all diamond. The nude stylus has less mass and is supposed to track more accurately than the bonded version, but it's usually more expensive.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack in Wilmington
Hey Frenchie,
I usually get my supplies at Elusive Disc. I picked up a level a while back and recently I got a Clearaudio Diamond Stylus Brush and some stylus cleaning fluid. I'm really enjoying this thread. Picking up a lot of valuable info, as I know you are too.
Yeah Jack...these guy's are taking me back to school. Vinyl sure sounds a lot better sense the 80's...I suppose its because I have better gear.
Thanks for the heads up on the Brushes and fluids...I need to get some...back in the day I would just go to radio shack.
Have you changed your cart? I find the Elan not being able to track on some passages....but again, I may just need a good cleaning of the vinyl.
- Cheers...
frenchmon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhymeammo
Thanks jrhymeammo..i'll check it out.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02audionoob
I wonder how one of the old Eisenhower dollar coins would work. :)
The standard elliptical they're referring to is a diamond bonded to a metal shank. The nude elliptical is all diamond. The nude stylus has less mass and is supposed to track more accurately than the bonded version, but it's usually more expensive.
Yeah...the reviews of the Ortofon 2M Red and 2M Blue says they sound about the same cept the Blue being nude and costing $199 while the Red being clothed and costing $99. PoppaC is sending me a OM 10....I might just get a 2M Red and shoot-out the Red and OM 10 and the Elan. I have a dealer friend who may give a good price better than retail.
frenchmon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02audionoob
Say frenchmon...if you add a little tracking force you might improve the bass situation.
noob...I just bumped up the sub a little...I can hear Percy Heaths acoustic bass on Dextor Gordon "Gotham City" loud and clear now..:3:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Yeah...the reviews of the Ortofon 2M Red and 2M Blue says they sound about the same cept the Blue being nude and costing $199 while the Red being clothed and costing $99. PoppaC is sending me a OM 10....I might just get a 2M Red and shoot-out the Red and OM 10 and the Elan. I have a dealer friend who may give a good price better than retail.
frenchmon
I have a 2M Red and I have heard the Blue extensively. I wouldn't say they sound or perform the same. Don't discount the Blue.
The Red performs wonderfully with really clear highs. Tracks like a dream, you'd enjoy it. I would say it tracks nicer than the OM-10 but in terms of sound, they will be a close race.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
I have a 2M Red and I have heard the Blue extensively. I wouldn't say they sound or perform the same. Don't discount the Blue.
The Red performs wonderfully with really clear highs. Tracks like a dream, you'd enjoy it. I would say it tracks nicer than the OM-10 but in terms of sound, they will be a close race.
PoppaC you a Red??? What was the difference between the Red and Blue....you must have a cart collection over there? I did hear a Grado on a VPI and it sounded pretty good.
frenchmon
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I think just about any cart on a VPI will sound great, or at the very least, as it's meant to.
Yes I have a Red. As you will eventually have happen, I broke the stylus while dusting an LP. My long sleeve was loose and I was carelesssly too close. It snagged and that was that. I literally picked it up off the ground and snuggled it like a dead pet. Pathetic really.
So anyhow, I had it for roughly 3 months before that. The Blue I have heard on a friends Pro-Ject RPM5 many times and at my local shop also. There are subtle differences, but as I said tracking is exceptional. It's subjective depending on system, but I my experience is that the Blue delivers better highs than the Red. They are more detailed and "real" sounding. Moving from that the upper mids were much smoother. I never really heard a big improvement in bass, but again, subjective.
I thought about sending you the Red cart, but you may as well just buy yourself a brand new one rather than just a stylus. Keep in mind about the OM-20, begin researching it. For that matter the whole OM family.
Here's the Red on my SL-Q2...(sniffle)...I'll buy another stylus but I have a Shure and a Sumiko on the go. I may get it while I have the Sumiko re-tipped.
http://forums.audioreview.com/attach...9&d=1253919240
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