May be a table finally.

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  • 05-15-2010, 10:44 AM
    poppachubby
    Well Frenchie, looks like the arm is somewhat limited on this table. You will have to stick with lighter MM carts I think. The OM-10 would be great if you grow tired of the stock cart.
  • 05-15-2010, 12:11 PM
    frenchmon
    Well I went to moms and got the albums. I threw most of them out...to many scratches...dad did not take very good care of his music. I did manage to save a few. I found a few blues album that sounded good..one guy, Hound Dog Taylor sounded good even though it was a cheap record lable. I found an old album by Pebbie Snow and it too sounded very good. But the gem of the lot was an old Lonnie Smith album with Lee Morgan and Fathead Newman recorded on Blue Note...that thing sounded good. I also found a pretty good Dione Warwick album that sounded good. When you guys play vinyl, do you have to turn up the volume a little more to get a good out put? I did notice while the highs where not as detailed, Lee Morgan's trumpet as well as Fat Dave Newman sax sounded richer. THere is also a more pronounced bass.

    PoppaC, I called Music Hall about the arm. It can be changed if I drill the hole out a bit, But according to the instruction book, I can change carts all the way up to 2grams. The way it is it sounds good, but you know me...I like to tweak things. I've heard that an acrylic platter over at acoustic sounds improves the sound as well as a speed box. The 2.2 has the up graded arm...the same as the 5.1

    This table is not as bad as some of the reviews said, but what do I know...the last table I owned was around 1985 or so.
  • 05-15-2010, 12:52 PM
    jrhymeammo
    http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge...&submit=Submit

    Frenchie,
    I think your TT has a same tonearm as the one come with Pro-Ject Debut. If so, the tonearm mass is at 9.5grams. Above link shows tonearm vs. cartridge compatibility.
    As long as you start within Green area, you will be fine.

    e.g. -
    5 grams* with dynamic compliance of 14 - 30.
    7 grams* with dynamic compliance of 12 - 27.

    * Cartridge weight+nuts+bolts+washers+others.

    A Resonance Frequency of 10Hz is said to be best, but I'm not going to discuss it here because some people would start an argument...

    Have you cleaned your dad's old LP?
  • 05-15-2010, 01:22 PM
    02audionoob
    Dynamic compliance can be a difficult spec to nail down. Many US and UK manufacturers seem to publish only a static compliance number, which can differ from dynamic compliance by as much as 2x. The Japanese manufacturers seem to publish a compliance number at 100 Hz, which can differ from 10 Hz by as much as 0.5x.

    Based on the chart at Vinyl Engine, a Goldring Elektra (which looks like the Music Hall tracker) would fall at around 10 Hz on the chart only if you assume its static compliance of 16 could be used in place of a dynamic number. If you assume dynamic to be half of static you'd be off into the orange area. That's why I think the OM-10 is perhaps a better match than the cartridge that shipped with the turntable...unless you're one of those who believes the resonant frequency should be up around 15 Hz.
  • 05-15-2010, 01:30 PM
    poppachubby
    Frenchie, I answered your question regarding the volume a few posts ago. I figured this would be a concern for you. This is my post...

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by poppachubby
    Keep in mind Frenchie, going to vinyl from a CDP can be a bit of a slap in the head. The output of a CDP leans on the powerful side, whereas your TT will be subtle. Don't be afraid to turn up your volume knob a bit, and remember that in that subtlety lies the dynamics that can turn a CDP out.

  • 05-15-2010, 02:04 PM
    frenchmon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jrhymeammo
    http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge...&submit=Submit

    Frenchie,
    I think your TT has a same tonearm as the one come with Pro-Ject Debut. If so, the tonearm mass is at 9.5grams. Above link shows tonearm vs. cartridge compatibility.
    As long as you start within Green area, you will be fine.

    e.g. -
    5 grams* with dynamic compliance of 14 - 30.
    7 grams* with dynamic compliance of 12 - 27.

    * Cartridge weight+nuts+bolts+washers+others.

    A Resonance Frequency of 10Hz is said to be best, but I'm not going to discuss it here because some people would start an argument...

    Have you cleaned your dad's old LP?

    Many of them where scratch so bad, I put them in the garage to go out with the trash But I did manage to save about 30 of them. Is there any tricks to cleaning them? or just plain old water and a cloth?
  • 05-15-2010, 02:06 PM
    frenchmon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by poppachubby
    Frenchie, I answered your question regarding the volume a few posts ago. I figured this would be a concern for you. This is my post...

    Oh yeah thats right...and I think I do here what you are talking about...the horns sounded great and the bass was alot thicker with some weight.

    frenchmon
  • 05-15-2010, 02:07 PM
    poppachubby
    Use 3 to 1, distilled water to isopropyl alcohol with a drop of dish soap.
  • 05-15-2010, 02:41 PM
    frenchmon
    Ok..thanks. going to get some grub and then headed to the two channel.

    =====
  • 05-15-2010, 03:33 PM
    jrhymeammo
    Poppa,

    If you are not using a record cleaning machine, with a rinse cycle I'm not sure about using a drop of dish soup. If anything I would stay the hell away from it. How can it not leave residue over time?
    I haven't tried it myself, but it just doesn't make any sense to me...

    If you feel like adding something other than H2O and Isopro, you may want to look into Photoflow.

    JRA
  • 05-15-2010, 04:18 PM
    poppachubby
    JRA, I should have included quantities. I mix a 4L jug of distilled water when I make a batch, I put a drop into that. Some people like Woolite...

    I am not alone... http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/fluids.html
  • 05-15-2010, 04:29 PM
    poppachubby
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by frenchmon
    Oh yeah thats right...and I think I do here what you are talking about...the horns sounded great and the bass was alot thicker with some weight.

    frenchmon

    I'll be interested to see how long until your ears REALLY start picking up on the differences. You will find that you don't need to try too hard, it will just come from time spent.

    One area I enjoy analog over digital is with drums. Considering a CDP on par with your 2.1, cymbals tend to be a nightmare. Some recordings I can't even listen to, the ride cymbal sounds like one extended hiss. You may find with vinyl more definition and percussive groove with cymbals, also top end will have a more realistic shimmer.

    Snare drum is another aspect where a CDP can be too forward or bright, giving the snare a really attacking and harsh tone.

    The last thing I find is that my analog rig images a drummer "better", at least to my taste. The CDP will be doing fine, until the drummer takes a solo. Then all of a sudden his kit is on top of the saxophonist and he is practically bashing you in the head with his sticks.

    Of course, your digital set up exceeds your analog. You may find the opposite is true. BTW, I have "The Meeting", good stuff. If you want a good example of what I'm talking about, listen to some Police on CD and then vinyl, see what you think. Stewart Copeland is capable of a symphony with his right hand.
  • 05-15-2010, 05:17 PM
    02audionoob
    I was using a drop or two of dishwashing detergent for a while, with no noticeable residue. I have since changed my surfactant to Jet-Dry. Here's how I dry mine...

    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3520/...af02bb6198.jpg
  • 05-16-2010, 05:37 AM
    jrhymeammo
    Hey Noob,

    What model of Dry Vac did you go with?
    I was thinking about getting one to put inside of a simple enclosure, but I was worried about its high intesity suction. I figured a simple 1 Gallon unit would be sufficient, but I'm affraid it would terrorize the surface.

    Thanks,
    JRA
  • 05-16-2010, 07:35 AM
    02audionoob
    That's the 2-gallon Craftsman Clean-n-Carry. I think it's about the same power as an upright vacuum.
  • 05-16-2010, 09:52 AM
    frenchmon
    What do you do with that...wash the album by hand and then suck the water of with the vac?
  • 05-16-2010, 10:30 AM
    frenchmon
    I can kinda get a feel for vinyl and what it possibly can do. But im not really feeling it with the albums I have. Many of them you can hear the very subtle scratches and pops in the music...not loud and hardly noticeable but they are there and I can hear it. Do you guys have scratches and pops??? Is that just one of the things that come with todays vinylhobbyist? Also the best recording I have is Phebie Snow so I think i can kinda see what it can do for me.. I also noticed many of yester years albums are bad recordings, just like a bad recorded CD.

    I like the bass and drums that I hear, but the cymbals are rolled off. I hate rolled off highs. So I think a cart as well as new albums are in order. What is this stuff about 180G albums? And what brand of cart will still give me good bass, drums and brass without rolling of the highs? Do most of you guys just by different carts and have like a collection? Is todays muisc recorded on Albums better than some of the stuff recorded back in the day? I've read even tho the 2.1 is an entry level deck to test the waters of vinyl, that its better than many of yester years entry models models like the Maantz I was trying to get...so I think I need to just get new albums??? a new Cart??? a new phonoamp? I know I can get better sound than what I have...MrPs Rega 2 sounded pretty good, as well as my friend who has the vintage VPI table.

    frenchmon
  • 05-16-2010, 10:45 AM
    02audionoob
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by frenchmon
    What do you do with that...wash the album by hand and then suck the water of with the vac?

    Yes...I apply my water/alcohol/Jet-Dry solution with a synthetic paint brush and vacuum it up. If it needs deeper cleaning, I clean it just like dishes in the sink, then paint it with my solution and vacuum it up.

    A good cleaning will dramatically reduce ticks and pops. Some of them are particles of grit or dust, while other ticks are just static. Either way, cleaning helps. Don't rub records dry, though. That will create static rather than dissipating it.

    Also...a little bit of the ticks and pops are part of the nature of vinyl. If you can't get to where you hear past that, you'll never be happy with vinyl. I'd definitely listen for a while before considering upgrades and alternate cartridges. Many people seem to give up on vinyl when they realize they can't be happy with the background noises.

    In my experience, the 180g albums can actually have a darker sound...I don't know that I could recommend them. The darker sound you're hearing could be at least partly the Goldring sound...something that would be smoother and warmer than the more-detailed Ortofon or Audio-Technica MM cartridges. You might like something like the Audio-Technica AT440MLa, although I can't say that I do. It should give you noticeably more treble than the Tracker.
  • 05-16-2010, 11:53 AM
    frenchmon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 02audionoob
    Yes...I apply my water/alcohol/Jet-Dry solution with a synthetic paint brush and vacuum it up. If it needs deeper cleaning, I clean it just like dishes in the sink, then paint it with my solution and vacuum it up.

    A good cleaning will dramatically reduce ticks and pops. Some of them are particles of grit or dust, while other ticks are just static. Either way, cleaning helps. Don't rub records dry, though. That will create static rather than dissipating it.

    Also...a little bit of the ticks and pops are part of the nature of vinyl. If you can't get to where you hear past that, you'll never be happy with vinyl. I'd definitely listen for a while before considering upgrades and alternate cartridges. Many people seem to give up on vinyl when they realize they can't be happy with the background noises.

    In my experience, the 180g albums can actually have a darker sound...I don't know that I could recommend them. The darker sound you're hearing could be at least partly the Goldring sound...something that would be smoother and warmer than the more-detailed Ortofon or Audio-Technica MM cartridges. You might like something like the Audio-Technica AT440MLa, although I can't say that I do. It should give you noticeably more treble than the Tracker.

    Bou noob...you are a walking living trouble shoot guide...I keep coming up with questions and you keep answering them. I really appreciate you doing this time of discovery for me.

    frenchmon
  • 05-16-2010, 11:57 AM
    02audionoob
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by frenchmon
    Bou noob...you are a walking living trouble shoot guide...I keep coming up with questions and you keep answering them. I really appreciate you doing this time of discovery for me.

    frenchmon

    No problem. As you might have noticed, I love this stuff...as do jra and poppa.
  • 05-16-2010, 12:13 PM
    poppachubby
    Treat yourself to a couple of brand new albums, then make some assessments. Sounds like the LPs you have are far gone. I don't buy anything that's too beat up. As a rule, most of my LP's have no clicking or popping. Be selective when buying used, and take excellent care of all new and used LP's you own.
  • 05-16-2010, 02:16 PM
    frenchmon
    Im feeling the Vinyl but need better cymbles with no roll off.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by poppachubby
    Treat yourself to a couple of brand new albums, then make some assessments. Sounds like the LPs you have are far gone. I don't buy anything that's too beat up. As a rule, most of my LP's have no clicking or popping. Be selective when buying used, and take excellent care of all new and used LP's you own.

    I just went out to the used CD store to look at jazz albums. This is the second time I've done this sense I got the table. There is plenty of used Rock, R&B, but hardly any good Jazz and Classical and Acoustic Blues. I suspect audiophiles are buying that stuff up. I did manage to find an original album by the late Benny Carter after he got done with his many TV and Movie scores. This Album is mint. I got it for $6 bucks. I put it on the table and man it sounds so good. It brought tears to my eyes. PoppaC you had better go look for this album. The one I got is an original copy but you may find a reissue some where. Its Benny Carters Album "Benny Carter and his Orchestra Further Definitions" recorded in 1961. He has playing with him on this gem , Phil Woods, Coleman Hawkins, Charles Rouse,Dick Katz, John Collins, Jimmy Garrison, Jo Jones.

    The only two I dont know are Dick Katz, John Collins. We all know the great Phil Wood and great legendary Coleman Hawkins and Charles Rouse was the sax player for Thelonious Monk for years. And Jimmy Garrison was John Coltrains bass player for years. And the great "Poppa" Jo Jones was one of the first drummers to promote the use of brushes on drums and shifting the role of timekeeping from the bass drum to the hi-hat cymbal. "Poppa"Jones had a major influence on drummers such as Buddy Rich, Kenny Clarke, Roy Haynes, Max Roach, and Louie Bellson. PoppaC treat your self to this on vinyl if you can...if not get the CD...im sure there is a reissue.

    I love the sound thats comming from the table with this album. The bass is very deep, the drums are very loud but the highs are not like I would have them to be...they are rolled off. The horns are great. I am feeling it. I may need a cart that will bring out the highs while keeping the deep bass.

    And MrP..a FYI for you....the Cantons are doing bass like your Dynaudio audience book shelves...it took the Vinyl to show they can go low.
  • 05-16-2010, 02:32 PM
    poppachubby
    Great!! I'll keep an eye out for that LP. noob gave me a Shure M97xe and it has rolled off highs. I use it with my Technics, great combo. Clearly the Tracker is in the same category. Looks like I'll be needing to send you the Ortofon after all. PM me your address again.

    As for used jazz, the issue isn't audiophiles buying it up, it's audiophiles not GIVING it up! People just don't trade or sell good jazz on vinyl, and you'll soon know why. Check for record shows or swap meets in your area, these usually bring out the jazz sellers.

    It only gets better, and remember, you're only in the Cheverolet Cavalier. Try to get out to hear some Corvette's every now and again.
  • 05-16-2010, 03:26 PM
    Mr Peabody
    Frenchmon from what you've told me of the albums you acquired, a lot of your noise is due to the condition of the vinyl. A well taken care of LP can be decently quiet. With that being said I still hear noise between tracks unless it's an exceptional LP. this is why I don't like Classical on LP. If you've accepted Poppa's offer for the Ortofon that would be a good place to start. I've never used Grado carts but if they design them to respond like their headphones..... that could account for the sound you describe. Your Cantons are also very revealing in the midrange which is going to accentuate noise in that area.
  • 05-16-2010, 04:11 PM
    frenchmon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by poppachubby
    Great!! I'll keep an eye out for that LP. noob gave me a Shure M97xe and it has rolled off highs. I use it with my Technics, great combo. Clearly the Tracker is in the same category. Looks like I'll be needing to send you the Ortofon after all. PM me your address again.

    As for used jazz, the issue isn't audiophiles buying it up, it's audiophiles not GIVING it up! People just don't trade or sell good jazz on vinyl, and you'll soon know why. Check for record shows or swap meets in your area, these usually bring out the jazz sellers.

    It only gets better, and remember, you're only in the Cheverolet Cavalier. Try to get out to hear some Corvette's every now and again.

    A cheverolet cavalier!!!!! You could have put me at lease in a Malabou!

    Address sent.