Low-Mid Range Turntable Options

[jb3838]

Hi All,

Seeking some of the collective audioreview wisdom. I am putting together a system, Magnepan MMGs, Harman Kardon 3485K receiver, and am now turning my attention to a turntable.

I currently don't have alot of vinyl, but plan on that being the focus of my future music collecting and purchasing. So, this is an important decision. However, I'm also moving into a house, buying furniture,etc. - so a price sensitive one.

It would be great to get a new/used one for $150, but if I can really improve the quality, $250 would work too. I would love to have the capability to transfer my records onto MP3Does that require sacraficing sound quality?

What options are recommended? Thanks for the help!

[O'Shag]

Hi JB3838,

Your budget is very limited at present. You're not going to get anything decent at that price unless someone is giving it away. You could always look at Stanton tables on the used market. You never know. People sometimes just unload stuff. If you could save some more money, then I can recommend an excellent table, but it'll be sort of hard to find. You'll have to check ebay or audiogon from time to time. The turntable was Mission's flagship, the 775SM. I owned one of these turntables, and deeply regret selling it, even though I have a $7,000 table now which is excellent. I had an Alphason Xenon arm and Stanton 881s cartidge on it. I also had an Alphason HR100S arm. The Alphasons are some of the best tonearms ever made, and are one piece Titanium. I can state that confidently because I now own two SME arms, one being a SME V tonearm, and the Alphason comes pretty darn close. In truth, with the table and arm I've just mentioned, you looking around the $1000 mark if you get lucky. The Stanton 881s is moving magnet, but is a good sounding musical cartridge ( I use a dynavector Karat 17D2 moving coil now). It is also not sold anymore, but sometimes comes up for sale at around $100.00. On the other hand, Sometimes the Thorens 125 comes up for sale and is less money, but the combination of the Mission 775SM (not the 775, its got to be the SM), and an Alphason Xenon or HR100s will sound way better..

Good luck

[canuckle]

$250 isn't going to get you anything worth having. Spend more and start here:

Rega P1

or

Denon DP-300F

[emaidel]

I have to disagree with some of the previous, well-meaning posts. The Dual CS-5000 is an outstanding turntable often available on eBay for less than the $300 for which I "won" mine. Many 5000's came with an Ortofon cartridge, and many others posted on eBay come with a decent cartridge too.

It's entirely possible you can get one for $250 with a good cartridge, so check it out. Good luck.

[emaidel]

Just checked eBay: there's one CS-5000 with a decent Shure cartridge going for $227.50. There are three days left in the bidding, but give it a shot and see what happens!

[jb3838]

Thanks for the heads up on the Ebay buy. You think I woulde get better sound out of 15+ year old model than a newer Technics or Denon model? I realize the build quality is impeccable, but there is a lot more security in buying new. That said, the Dual is sexy - I assume that's real wood correct?

Has anyone had any exposure to the Denon DP-300F? Thoughts on it versus a Technics 1200 or the Dual? Thanks.

[blackraven]

I would check out audiogon for a used music hal MMF5.1 or even a new pro-ject debut III at www.needledoctor.com.

[blackraven]

I forgot to mention, there's a Rega P-2 for sale on audiogon. I've been looking at turntables lately as well- the Pro-ject RM 5SE and RM6.1 along with the MH MMF5.1SE

[emaidel]

You think I woulde get better sound out of 15+ year old model than a newer Technics or Denon model? That said, the Dual is sexy - I assume that's real wood correct?

Has anyone had any exposure to the Denon DP-300F? Thoughts on it versus a Technics 1200 or the Dual? Thanks.

I'd take the CS-5000 any day over a Technics SL-1200. While the Technics is built like a tank, it has a rather massive tonearm which pales in comparison to that on the CS-5000.

The new Denon DP-300F looks nice, but I can't say anyting about it as I'm not at all familiar with it. And, other recommendations for used MM5.1 tables are worth checking into.

Lastly, the base of the CS-5000 is indeed real wood, unless of course, you select the black model.

[royphil345]

I'd take the CS-5000 any day over a Technics SL-1200. While the Technics is built like a tank, it has a rather massive tonearm which pales in comparison to that on the CS-5000.

Kinda' harsh words... The Technics arm is medium mass and boasts extremely good friction specs. The materials and workmanship are first-rate. Most 1200 owners are quite satisfied with the arm after a rewire. The CS-5000 is an automatic table? The arm looks pretty clunky in places and I doubt it weighs much less than the Technics arm. Have specs? Have the VTA zeroed in yet? How's that coming?... The quality of an arm and the mass of an arm are two very different things. A moving magnet with very high compliance might perform better on a lower-mass arm, while moving coils with higher compliance might perform better on an arm with more mass.

When I was doing the used table thing, I'll admit the Dual CS-5000 caught my eye on several occasions, although I never ended up buying one. One of the very few reasonably-priced used tables I'd take a chance on... But, I'm pretty skeptical that the Technics 1200 pales in comparison to it in any way.

We Technics 1200 owners have learned to sit and take it from the owners of $1000.00+ belt-drives... However, from the owners of any old automatic Dual... Heck no... I'm not takin' it!!!... LOL

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-48468.html

[emaidel]

[QUOTE=royphil345]

We Technics 1200 owners have learned to sit and take it from the owners of $1000.00+ belt-drives... However, from the owners of any old automatic Dual... Heck no... I'm not takin' it!!!... LOL QUOTE]

The CS-5000 is not an automatic table: the arm lifts at the end of play, and that's all it does on its own. The arm won't even descend onto the record until the quartz lock kicks in (and it's one of the only quartz locked belt drive tables ever made by anyone).

The arm is very much indeed of significantly lower mass than that of the SL-1200, and of just about any other "S-shaped" tubular arm. Dual and Technics battled over this issue back in the 70s', and there's still no substitute for the old adage that "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line." check out just about any high end table on Jerry Raskin's "The Needle Doctor" website, and you won't find a one with an S-shaped arm.

I owned an SL-1200 and liked it a great deal, but have to admit that the sound I get from the CS-5000 just blows the Technics away (as well as a model from Kenwood, another from Denon, and other duals). I can't back cue the CS-5000, or treat it roughly as one can the SL-1200 without fear of damage, but that's not why I bought it.

Just today I experienced something that only further solidified the benefit of its low mass arm: I have a copy of "Diamonds and Rust" by Joan Baez that warped rather badly. NO turntable I've owned would play the record, even with my Stanton Collector's Series 100 cartridge with the Longhair Brush in use (the Stanton and Pickering brushes did an outstanding job of aiding in the playing of warped records), but today, when I plopped it down onto the the CS-5000 platter, the arm managed to stay on the record just fine (with some audible warbling due to the stretching of the grooves though). I'd say that's pretty impressive.

[royphil345]

The CS-5000 is not an automatic table: the arm lifts at the end of play, and that's all it does on its own. The arm won't even descend onto the record until the quartz lock kicks in (and it's one of the only quartz locked belt drive tables ever made by anyone).

Oh... SEMI-automatic... I'm sorry. Yeah... All of the best tonearms are semi-automatic plastic fantastics.


"and know it well (CS-5000).

Pleasant to listen to. The real weakness is the arm (or more correctly the bearings). Much of it is made of plastic painted to look like metal. The internal wiring is poor. The ability to tweak it is minimal." http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-48468.html

The arm is very much indeed of significantly lower mass than that of the SL-1200, and of just about any other "S-shaped" tubular arm. Dual and Technics battled over this issue back in the 70s', and there's still no substitute for the old adage that "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line." check out just about any high end table on Jerry Raskin's "The Needle Doctor" website, and you won't find a one with an S-shaped arm.

Hmmm... Is that so? http://www.needledoctor.com/Denon-DP...2&category=348 Nope... It's not so. Denon didn't put that arm on their cheaper models either... Hmmm...

Technics and Dual "battled over this issue"? Was it televised? Do you just make this stuff up as you go along? In any case... Technics must have won because they went on to sell most of the turntables manufactured in the '80s with their S-shaped tonearms, while Dual declared bankruptcy in 1982. Technics buried Dual.

Dual's claims of their arms having such Earth shatteringly low mass were in comparison to Garrards and such from the '70s, not arms that were designed after they went under. Dual took Garrard down in much the same way Technics took Dual down. One look will tell you the Dual arm is more mid-mass by today's standards.

The classic SME S-shaped tonearms generally sell for far more than your turntable does on eBay. They have more mass than the arm on the 1200. Again... mass has NOTHING to do with QUALITY and more tonearm mass works better with certain carts.

What's that about the shortest distance between two ears?...

I owned an SL-1200 and liked it a great deal, but have to admit that the sound I get from the CS-5000 just blows the Technics away (as well as a model from Kenwood, another from Denon, and other duals). I can't back cue the CS-5000, or treat it roughly as one can the SL-1200 without fear of damage, but that's not why I bought it.

I'm not buying the rest of this crap, so excuse me for not buyng this either. I'm not going to be replacing my 1200 with a Dual 5000 anytime soon... Did you have the 1200 hooked up to the exact same gear and cartridge? Even so... I'd have to say an A / B test on two pieces of gear done years apart would be hard to take very seriously. Doubt if you ever heard a 1200. Most of the folks who still bash them these days bash them in comparison to much more expensive gear. The 1200 is experiencing a surge of popularity right now and your cliches and myths about them just aren't holding water. Back cue and get with the program.

Just today I experienced something that only further solidified the benefit of its low mass arm: I have a copy of "Diamonds and Rust" by Joan Baez that warped rather badly. NO turntable I've owned would play the record, even with my Stanton Collector's Series 100 cartridge with the Longhair Brush in use (the Stanton and Pickering brushes did an outstanding job of aiding in the playing of warped records), but today, when I plopped it down onto the the CS-5000 platter, the arm managed to stay on the record just fine (with some audible warbling due to the stretching of the grooves though). I'd say that's pretty impressive.

I wouldn't... LOL

Coming here for a good-natured pat on the back for buying a turntable that's not all that impressive and then knocking other's gear for a bunch of crazy reasons, most of which don't even turn out to be true, is poor form. I agree the CS-5000 is an excellent value compared to what some of these new entry-level tables are going for. A little speed stability goes a long way towards good sound in my book... and it sure is a looker. Like I said... almost bought one myself a few times. But, if you want to bash my gear... at least try to come up with some sort of real reason for doing so. Not a bunch of myths, cliches and completely false statements... talk of this "blowing away" that when you don't even have this and that on hand for comparison... and the best way you can describe the differences is that one "blows away" the other... Less than worthless. You've been completely unable to support your bold statement that the Technics arm "pales in comparison" to the Dual arm with anything other than nonsense. The fact is, if the Technics arm is weak... the Dual arm is probably very close in mass (although mass is no indication of quality), semi automatic and probably not put together quite as well.

I stand by everything I said....

You mean everything I took apart piece by piece and proved to be total crap? Congrats... I guess....

[emaidel]

Is anybody else reading this screed? I stand by everything I've said, especially given the fact that I have over 30 years experience in the audio industry, and recall vividly the confrontations that took place between Technics and Dual personnel concerning the S-shaped or straight tonearm controversy. And while Technics certainly became the dominant player in the turntable category, they by no means put Dual out of business. The U.S. distributor of Dual, United Audio, is out of business.

I certainly don't make up anything I've posted, and I've done my best not to "bash" other equipment: just tried to make an honest comparison between two units and state the reasons why. I've even stated on many an occasion that the SL-1200 is a very good piece of equipment, and one that should last its owner a lifetime of trouble free service.

I've read the statement that the arm on the CS-5000 is plastic, painted to look like metal, and I can categorically state that that just isn't true - so who is it who'se making up stuff as he goes along?

I guess I should just give this whole thing a rest. All I get back is needlessly personal attacks (which have no place whatsoever here on AR, and are totally uncalled for).

[jb3838]

I was hoping to redirect this post before it devovled into a Technics vs. Dual battle - but it's good that you guys are as passionate about your equipment as you are! I hope I purchase a table that evokes similar loyalties.

I've found the Denon DP-300F selling new on Ebay, with warranty, for $200. That sounds like an outstanding deal. I like the idea of having a warranty over a vintage piece. The only previous tables I've used have been thrift store and basement finds, so I'm not sure I have the know-how to fix any problems that I might incurr with the Dual. Also, the Denon has a pre-amp. That would make it very easy to digitize correct? Or is it just as easy to run a table through a receiver and then to your laptop?

At any rate, LPGear is selling the Denon with the following upgrades:

LP Gear DN85E elliptical stylus (retail value $34.95) and a ViVid turntable belt (retail value $19.95)

If I get one for $200, I could make a $100 of upgrades and still be ahead of the game. Any suggestions on wise sound upgrades or would it just be wiser to buy a 1200? Sorry, I just think the Dual's age makes it intimidating for a newbie. Thanks.

[Corto Maltese]

jb,
Good turntable does not need any warranty, and by large, if you are going to re-wire the thing (or do anything else as DIY project) most of those guys will tell you that your warranty is done at that point. BTW, on < $300 tt, shipping and packing connected to warranty issues could run you over the price of the table…
Do you have any dealers around you? They always have interesting used pieces taken on trade-in, and most of those have some improvements already done. And when time comes, you can bring them back same TT as a down payment for better thing, without losing too much – and in some cases without losing any money.
Technics vs. Dual vs. Thorens vs. Denon etc. is very subjective thing, if Thorens is any entry level TT. Most of those TTs were DJ’s favourite, made to withstand nuclear attack, and all do sound very good for the money. Denon made very good carts, but I can’t tell you anything for the table. I do not like any Direct Drive, and the main reason is vibration.
If you want something brand new, there is trade-off in quality – most of those old tables are built better, with better materials. They were built better because at that time, market was highly competitive place regarding turntables – there were no CD players yet.
Some people would claim that this new cheap plastic will perform better than anything made 20 or 30 years ago – if nothing else, because of the age, but being involved in some aspects of field engineering testing, I would beg to differ. One more: most of the old TTs are very well taken care off.
Do you have MM / MC input on your receiver, or just MM?
If you buy USB table for < $300, I am sure you’ll regret that decision. It is better to feed the signal from your pre (you should have pre-out on your HK) into your laptop, and simple software (analog to .mp3) is free on internet.
Good luck and let us know what you did.

[emaidel]

[QUOTE=jb3838]I was hoping to redirect this post before it devovled into a Technics vs. Dual battle ....

That's a very wise decision, and my apologies for having participated in the hijacking of your thread.

I've found the Denon DP-300F selling new on Ebay, with warranty, for $200.

That does sound like a good deal, though I know nothing other than specs about that turntable.


Also, the Denon has a pre-amp. That would make it very easy to digitize correct? Or is it just as easy to run a table through a receiver and then to your laptop?


I'd have to assume your HK receiver has a phono input, negating the need for the Denon's built-in preamp. Insofar as "digitizing," I really can't comment as I'm not sure what you're talking about. I assume you're looking to transfer LP's to a digital medium, such as MP-3 or CD, in which case a line level output is what's needed. That would come either directly off the turntable's built-in preamp, or the receivers's "tape out" jacks.

I also fully understand your reluctance to buy something used without a warranty. Insofar as the Dual CS-5000 is concerned, I'd suspect the only problem you might encounter is a bad connection (which others have experienced) or a broken belt (which is easily fixed). A brand new table eliminates the worry, and I can't fault you for that.

And lastly, I sincerely doubt you'll be able to purchase a new Technics SL-1200 for anywhere near $250. So, whatever you do, I hope you're satisfied with your purchase, and you did receive a recommendation for the Denon DP-300F from a member of this site, though it wasn't me.

[jrhymeammo]

Can I assume that you live somewhere in N America?

Here is my suggestion:
-Avoid having your TT shipped "to" your home. If possible, acquire it from your local seller. If the item is faulty, you can always return it, instead of dealing with a damange claim thru carriers.

If you must buy it used, then go to Audiogon dot com and do advance search. Type in first 2 digits of your Zip and search what TT is available to you locally.

SL-1200 mk2 will be a good deck. There are loads of modification. If you are worried about how well Technics' arm tracks, then look for fluid damper mod, before messing around with tonearm rewire. Or you can always fit a Rega arm.


Regards,

[blackraven]

I would still consider going the used route. There are several Rega P2's for sale on audigon for $300-400. Some have or best offer listed. These are nice turntables with glass platters.

[jb3838]

All the feedback is sincerely appreciated, thanks.
To answer some the questions posed:

My receiver is a HK 3485 and is stated as being compatible only with MM-type cartridges

I do live in North America, but in rural Appalachia. I'm 2 hours from Columbus, OH and Pittsburgh, PA. Where could I get a list of dealers in my area?

Side note: The Dual on Ebay went for over $600 - decidedly out of my current price range. Are there other Dual models worth considering?
Finally, doe anyone have any experience with the Goldring GR1.2? It seems from my short research to come highly recommended. Thanks.

[canuckle]

I can personally attest to the Denon DP-300F as I've had one for quite a while. It's a very nice table, solidly constructed, and quite attractive. I stuck an AT440ML cartridge on it and it's a beautiful combination. Automatic tables aren't everyone's thing on here as it undermines their beliefs in audio poltergeist, but for me, I appreciate the convenience. The Denon's auto-drop is the gentlest I've ever seen which resolved the only complaint that I have about auto-tables. I use the phono-in on my receiver so I don't need to use the RIAA equalizer in the turntable itself but that could be helpful depending on your equipment. Out of everything there is to choose from, it's the one that I went with for whatever that might be worth

A turntable is one thing that I'd never buy 2nd hand. You just never know how it's been treated.

[Corto Maltese]

Try this:
http://www.yellowbot.com/tags/consum...0OH/page1.html
for Columbus, OH - or
http://www.yellowbot.com/search/?zoo...A&subbtn=Go%21

Dig through all of this cabbage, you could find something good. Or just "google" your question.
Regarding buying used equipment: I do it this way:
- do your homework - read reviews; talk to people (IMHO, forums are definitely the greatest thing after sliced bread), research, listen, do everything you can to find what do you want, what your compromise could be, and what you do not want (very important).
- If you are buying from the dealer buy it on condition to listen to it in your system and on, say, Saturday morning – if anything is wrong with the thing, it will hit you after few good hours of listening. Just bring it back if something is wrong.
- More bells and whistles, more chances for something to be (or go) wrong… it’s not quite like that regarding the TTs, but it might come down to it. Point that many critical listeners (or audiophiles) are raising about semi-automated or automated tables is about the strain that additional things could and do bring into the system, especially onto the arm.
It may be good idea for you to read this: http://www.turntablebasics.com/index.html - click on Advice Page. It will not “show you the light”, but it might point you in good direction.
I talked to friend of mine, who was DJ while student on University, many, many years ago. He went through many TTs. All of the above mentioned TTs do have their own problems and advantages, and all of them should be fine starting point – new, as well as used. However, his suggestion was to not stay for too long with any of the entry level models (depending on level of use). And if TT was not treated properly, one can se it on a first glance, or hear / see after first few LPs. TT alone is just one part of the system. IMHO, arm is equally important, and cartridge is even more important. And to make things more complicated, or fun, all three must go together fine – you can not beat any of those three into the submission… For those of us with money to burn, its trial and error. That road has its own advantages, and rewards. For me (poor as a church mouse), research (boring), talk (confusing), think (hurts), listen (flabbergasted)… its fun!
Good luck.
ps.: MM (moving magnet) is just fine. Nobody who I know uses MC on entry level TTs. As long as you have that option, it sould work fine for you, to start... I have no experience with Goldring, I think I heard that they are "working man's Rega" - whatever is that supposed to mean. If it is locally available, try it, you should be able to tweak / upgrade it. If it is e-bay... good luck.

[blackraven]

I think your trying to split hairs. Any of the TT's in the price range you are looking at will do fine. We are not talking about new TT's that sell for $200 or TT's over $1000. Buy a TT that's in your budget and get a good cartridge. If your really concerned about getting the best sound then buy a good used TT from a reliable seller. The bottom line is that any of the TT's you arre looking at are not going to give you Hi end audiophile sound. For that you are going to have to drop some dough for a better TT and cartridge and maybe a better phono pre-amp then whats in your HK.

My advice would be to buy the TT now and if your unhappy with it, upgrade the cartridge and then maybe a stand alone phono pre-amp if your receiver allows.

[flippo]

What are your thoughts on a TD320 TT?

[blackraven]

Thats a thorens TT and thorens does make good TT's still but their lower priced units, under $2,000 have not been traditionally up to par with other brands costing much less. i don't know of this unit personnaly. I would still rather have a musichall or pro-ject.

[jb3838]

As always, thanks for the great thoughts. Let's pair it down to Rega vs. Music Hall. And within that, entry level offering with next stage offering. For Music Hall 2.1 vs. 5.1 and for Rega P1 vs. the P2 and P3.

What are the relative merits between the two companies speaking in broad terms?
Are the advantages of 5.1/P2 over the entry level substantial?
I'm concerned that the entry level products may be cost-cutted out of features. Thanks.