Initial Impressions of Music Hall MMF 5.1

[frenchmon]

Probably up to around $400. Since I just put out about $650 on the table.

Thats a very good price Jack....I've seen it about $875 new.

[Mr Peabody]

It might blow the budget but what about just getting a stereo preamp with the phono built in? I don't know about containing phono stage but some of the older CJ preamps can be found on Audiogon for $400 or $500.00. Of course, that would lead to the HT integration thing. I'm not sure what year CJ began to add the HT bypass but I'm sure it was never thought of back when the PV10 was built.

It might be worth the extra expense and effort though to run the MM-5 into a better overall preamp as well as phono stage. For now though, glad you are enjoying your new addition.

[poppachubby]

It might blow the budget but what about just getting a stereo preamp with the phono built in?

We just discussed this in another thread. I forget which one. You're right Peabody, for a bit more cash, there are some great preamps out there. The ARC SP9 comes to mind, very versatile for roughly $800.

I think the best idea would be to convert a used tube pre into a dedicated phono stage. This is what we discussed with frenchmon in that other thread. However, this is where a unit like the Tube Box starts to become a value. If you can't best the cost of the Tube Box, then you better be darn sure it's worth it in terms of fidelity.

For your budget Jack, you would probably just come in under. The idea is to grab a vintage American tube pre, and use it as a dedicated phono stage. This is done by using the Tape Out and bypassing all line stages and controls (essentially noise). Obviously the further your money can go to refurbing a stock unit, the better. Coupling caps and resistors should be replaced. There is also a great mod for the RIAA circuit.

Dynaco, EICO, Scott, Fisher, Sherwood are all good names. Problem is many people are discovering these brands, so the cat is out of the bag. Prices have gone up significfantly in the last few years.

[poppachubby]

Jack I did an extensive audition of the Tube Box II SE at my local shop. It's a killer stage, VERY resolute yet neutral. If anything is out of wack, the Tube Box will amplify it. But if everything is just right, you'll get a real smooth and open sound.

Furthermore, I had to pass on it because the table I wanted it for was a Technics SL-Q2. Essentially the table wasn't good enough, and it exposed every audible weakness.

I would say if your table is properly set up, the Tube Box would be a great match. As far as cart matching, that's another story.

[frenchmon]

Jack I did an extensive audition of the Tube Box II SE at my local shop. It's a killer stage, VERY resolute yet neutral. If anything is out of wack, the Tube Box will amplify it. But if everything is just right, you'll get a real smooth and open sound.

Furthermore, I had to pass on it because the table I wanted it for was a Technics SL-Q2. Essentially the table wasn't good enough, and it exposed every audible weakness.

I would say if your table is properly set up, the Tube Box would be a great match. As far as cart matching, that's another story.

Im sorta running into that with my MMF 2.1

My preamp and speakers are really showing me the flaws in my budget table. It really does not have good detail at lower volume listening until I turn it up... and when the music stops I can hear the rumble. And while listening at louder volume levels, I keep wanting more out of it. But all in all, I really like it...I just know that its not on the same level as the rest of my gear. But for a entry level deck it performs well. I only wished it had the fidelity of the Marantz TT-15S1 Reference Series Turntable Peabody and I listen to Wednesday night...that thing rocked.

[poppachubby]

I only wished it had the fidelity of the Marantz TT-15S1 Reference Series Turntable Peabody and I listen to Wednesday night...that thing rocked.

Those are made by Clearaudio frenchie. Rebadged Emotion I believe.

[frenchmon]

Those are made by Clearaudio frenchie. Rebadged Emotion I believe.

Yes, I know...I wouldn't mind having one of those Marantz tables though....but yes, its Clearaudio all the way...even down to the cart. Have you had a chance to listen to one? The one we listen to was pared with a Very expensive Macintosh preamp and very expensive Classe mono amps. And the Klipsch speaker system that retails for $20,000 a pair. The Podiums.

[02audionoob]

I think the TT15-S1 is a little more than a straight-ahead Emotion. There's somthing a little upgraded about it...don't remember what. One of the guys at AK said he lucked into one for something like $350. Amazing stroke of luck. I once had a dealer offer me a price of $850 for one and I passed, after thinking long and hard about it. I thought it might be interesting to have the new Marantz turntable sitting on my old Marantz receiver.

[frenchmon]

I think the TT15-S1 is a little more than a straight-ahead Emotion. There's somthing a little upgraded about it...don't remember what. One of the guys at AK said he lucked into one for something like $350. Amazing stroke of luck. I once had a dealer offer me a price of $850 for one and I passed, after thinking long and hard about it. I thought it might be interesting to have the new Marantz turntable sitting on my old Marantz receiver.

Man for the price of $850 you should have grabbed it. The way it sounded last Wendsday night it was just graceful. When its time for me to get a new table, if I find one at that price, imma jump all over it. Not only does it sound very good, its pretty.

[02audionoob]

Man for the price of $850 you should have grabbed it. The way it sounded last Wendsday night it was just graceful. When its time for me to get a new table, if I find one at that price, imma jump all over it. Not only does it sound very good, its pretty.

I know...that dealer must have thought I was nuts to pass that up.

[frenchmon]

I know...that dealer must have thought I was nuts to pass that up.

noob. I think you have Audio Research gear? last night I listened for about 5 hours to a system that had a tube Audio Research preamp ...I think he said it was a LS 14 or 16. He also has another one that he was not using...a PS. I forget the number. The LS was connected to a Macintosh tube amp 225. He had some diy speakers with Vifa woofers and Morel tweeters and Diy cables and interconnect...it was just mind blowing. He did the tube rolling to get the sound he wanted....his system was not overly warm at all. Most Mac gear I have heard was just to warm. My buddy said its just a matter of tube rolling. I was totally blown away by his system.

[poppachubby]

noob. I think you have Audio Research gear? last night I listened for about 5 hours to a system that had a tube Audio Research preamp ...I think he said it was a LS 14 or 16. He also has another one that he was not using...a PS. I forget the number. The LS was connected to a Macintosh tube amp 225. He had some diy speakers with Vifa woofers and Morel tweeters and Diy cables and interconnect...it was just mind blowing. He did the tube rolling to get the sound he wanted....his system was not overly warm at all. Most Mac gear I have heard was just to warm. My buddy said its just a matter of tube rolling. I was totally blown away by his system.

Awesome right? My "dream" pre is an ARC SP9, EStat and JoeESP9 both own one. They are discontinued and only available new.

I've heard a couple of pretty awesome DIY tube set ups myself. You'll rarely meet an eccentric tube type who doesn't make their own speakers.

Sure, as a rule tubes are warmer, but I don't think it's the bowl of mush that alot of people would like to think it is. I have my main rig right across from a respectable SS set up for my computer.

[jrhymeammo]

I think if you were to spend less than $400, then I wouldn’t go for Tube Box II, or anything below $200.
Tube Box II is basically Project’s Phono Box II with added tube circuit.
Not to say Phono Box II is a bad unit, but I think your system deserves something a little better like a used Tube Box SE (bigger unit).

As Noob suggested, PJ Tube Box (original) is a good unit.
I would need to hear it again in my system to really say but I, too, had owned one and never thought it sounded neutral by any means.
But the best thing about the unit is that it offers soulful midrange that keep you up at night.
It’s not a High End Audiophile piece of unit, just a damn good unit.

BUT, for another $300 or so, you can find a used Audio Research PH3.
The AR is far above PJ Tube box. It is well built, neutral with a touch of warm, plenty of gain and overall margin to satisfy 95% of MM and even low output cartridges.
If I was in your position, I would save until this winter and get a used AR PH-3. Who knows maybe you can stretch to the PH-3SE.

[frenchmon]

Man...you know how to find a deal don't you.

[poppachubby]

Great deal Jack, let us know what you think.

[frenchmon]

Did you sell your old table?

[Jack in Wilmington]

Did you sell your old table?

Traded it in on the 5.1. That's what made me jump on the deal. It's nice that this guy will take your old stuff in trade. That's why I always keep my eye on his used and demo gear.
I went to my Pro-ject dealer to talk about an Xperience table, but they don't do trade-ins.
He's still trying to talk me out of my Usher X-719's. The only thing that his has that fits my budget are a pair of Vienna Acoustics "Mozarts". He had me bring in my Ushers for a shoot out between them and a pair of Paradigm Sig 2's. Then he tried the Studio 20's
It took the small floorstanders ( Mozarts and Studio 60's) to equal the bass extension of the X-719, but then the mids weren't as detailed and the highs were a little more etchy. Especially on the Studio 60's. Sorry to ramble on so. When I was in yesterday to order the Pro-ject Phono Pre, he was like " Hey still enjoying those Ushers" . I know he wants another shot.

[frenchmon]

Traded it in on the 5.1. That's what made me jump on the deal. It's nice that this guy will take your old stuff in trade. That's why I always keep my eye on his used and demo gear.
I went to my Pro-ject dealer to talk about an Xperience table, but they don't do trade-ins.
He's still trying to talk me out of my Usher X-719's. The only thing that his has that fits my budget are a pair of Vienna Acoustics "Mozarts". He had me bring in my Ushers for a shoot out between them and a pair of Paradigm Sig 2's. Then he tried the Studio 20's
It took the small floorstanders ( Mozarts and Studio 60's) to equal the bass extension of the X-719, but then the mids weren't as detailed and the highs were a little more etchy. Especially on the Studio 60's. Sorry to ramble on so. When I was in yesterday to order the Pro-ject Phono Pre, he was like " Hey still enjoying those Ushers" . I know he wants another shot.

For the life of me, other than the furniture grade wood on the Vienna Acoustics, I just don't understand what others see in those laid back speakers. For the money there are a lot more choices in speakers that sound miles ahead better than VA's speakers. I mean they have a deep bottom end, but they have no pizazz...no sparkle, nothing to draw you in. They are some of the most boring speakers I have ever heard....I like speakers to have life, energy...pizazz. I have listen to Vienna Acoustics over and over again to try and like them, but I just don't. I don't find them engaging at all.

[Jack in Wilmington]

For the life of me, other than the furniture grade wood on the Vienna Acoustics, I just don't understand what others see in those laid back speakers. For the money there are a lot more choices in speakers that sound miles ahead better than VA's speakers. I mean they have a deep bottom end, but they have no pizazz...no sparkle, nothing to draw you in. They are some of the most boring speakers I have ever heard....I like speakers to have life, energy...pizazz. I have listen to Vienna Acoustics over and over again to try and like them, but I just don't. I don't find them engaging at all.

Frenchie they are a fickle speaker. I've heard them sound boring at Tweeter, when they were in business. Must have been the electronics or the room. When I heard them at my Pro-ject dealer, I didn't think he had the Mozarts playing. He was running them through Ayre equipment and they really opened up. That is one speaker that I would have to audition at home with my own gear. They are what I call "polite".

[poppachubby]

Hi-Fi salesguys always hate anything you own. It's never good for any amount of reasons. Too old, too lo-fi, too ugly. They have to in order to better sell their wares. I love the local guys I deal with but when it comes to the "biz" side of things, I just snicker.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Hi-Fi salesguys always hate anything you own. It's never good for any amount of reasons. Too old, too lo-fi, too ugly. They have to in order to better sell their wares. I love the local guys I deal with but when it comes to the "biz" side of things, I just snicker.

I've bought my share of gear from him over the years, amp, subwoofer, wifes TV last Christmas and that's the stuff I still own. He's been with this company for 20 years and the guys that work with him say he's got gear put away in his closets that would make you drool.

[frenchmon]

I've listen to them over and over again. And they where just plain old laid back. I've never heard them open up at all. Those speakers are very dark. I think they are darker than Dynaudio speaker. I would love to do a shoot out with them and Dynaudio speakers....the Dyns would have more life.

[poppachubby]

If I had a choice between the two, I would take the Xpression based on the arm's value and sound. You can always isolate the table with DIY tricks or after market products. The dual plinth of the Music Hall is indeed great, but not enough to trade off a better arm IMO.

Check out the Xpression Mahogany, I think it's look is right up your alley...like the Xperience you had pictured for a while.

[frenchmon]

PoppaC...that is a nice store. They also have some nice used gear

[poppachubby]

PoppaC...that is a nice store. They also have some nice used gear

You guys were chatting about VA, I heard the Bachs that were at Target. I didn't mind them.

I spend most of my time there, but there is one other high end shop in town. They deal Linn, Krell, Mac and other big names. The analog guy there is a guru, so I like to stop in and pick his brain, or just hang and listen to the shop's LP12.