CDs Over Vinyl Any Day

[eleiko]

I'll take CDs over vinyl any day. I've got both, including the same recordings (one on vinyl, the other on CD), and the CDs sound better (crisper, clearer, quieter). Do an A-B comparison of Beatles records, and this becomes very apparent. Yes, I still listen to my LPs on my Thorens TD166 mk2 (coupled with a Sumiko Pearl cartridge - no wonder the CDs sound better; is that what you're thinking?). Ergonomically, CDs make more sense, and, as I've said, they sound better - bringing to life some 1930s opera recordings (like act 2 of Die Valcarie with Lauritz Melchoir) that sound like 1930s opera recordings on LP. And I certainly don't miss the clicks and pops which, since CDs came available, are almost intolerable. Go ahead, flame me.

[Sondek]

I'll take CDs over vinyl any day. I've got both, including the same recordings (one on vinyl, the other on CD), and the CDs sound better (crisper, clearer, quieter). Do an A-B comparison of Beatles records, and this becomes very apparent. Yes, I still listen to my LPs on my Thorens TD166 mk2 (coupled with a Sumiko Pearl cartridge - no wonder the CDs sound better; is that what you're thinking?). Ergonomically, CDs make more sense, and, as I've said, they sound better - bringing to life some 1930s opera recordings (like act 2 of Die Valcarie with Lauritz Melchoir) that sound like 1930s opera recordings on LP. And I certainly don't miss the clicks and pops which, since CDs came available, are almost intolerable. Go ahead, flame me.

Actually, none of the cd recordings I have (AKA Naim CDS3 cdp) can match my LINN lp-12 musically. The 200 gram pressings simply have more fluidity than any cd player can deliver. This makes the vinyl more tonally alive and involving.

But...

No vinyl I have heard has the cd players black background and frictionless silence. Stuff like the 1812 overture and other dynamic/bass powerful recordings work better on a cd IMO.

The Thorens is a decent deck, but not really tonally a "reference" deck in which to compare vs premium digital.

In my case, I am comparing a $14k cd player and an $8k turntable set up. Cd has it's merits, but both platforms are capable of extracting nuances to the point enjoyment becomes synergy, and recording quality dependent.

[eleiko]

Actually, none of the cd recordings I have (AKA Naim CDS3 cdp) can match my LINN lp-12 musically. The 200 gram pressings simply have more fluidity than any cd player can deliver. This makes the vinyl more tonally alive and involving.

But...

No vinyl I have heard has the cd players black background and frictionless silence. Stuff like the 1812 overture and other dynamic/bass powerful recordings work better on a cd IMO.

The Thorens is a decent deck, but not really tonally a "reference" deck in which to compare vs premium digital.

In my case, I am comparing a $14k cd player and an $8k turntable set up. Cd has it's merits, but both platforms are capable of extracting nuances to the point enjoyment becomes synergy, and recording quality dependent.

I wouldn't spend more than a few hundred dollars for either a turntable or CD player. As you know, there's a point of diminishing returns when you reach stratospheric heights in audio (or anything else for that matter). I've never found CDs "cold", "vapid" or any of the other adjectives some audiophiles use to describe their sound. The quiet background alone sold me on CDs as preference to vinyl.

[Sondek]

I wouldn't spend more than a few hundred dollars for either a turntable or CD player. As you know, there's a point of diminishing returns when you reach stratospheric heights in audio (or anything else for that matter). I've never found CDs "cold", "vapid" or any of the other adjectives some audiophiles use to describe their sound. The quiet background alone sold me on CDs as preference to vinyl.

I didn't flame you before, but you stated exactly as I suspected. You do not own high end, and cannot speak from experiance, and do not have a good point of reference. You are making a call from rationalizing cheap gear. I won't say it doesn't sound good, but it is a long way from what vinyl and digital can do.

Sure, I might like cd better if all I knew was sub $1k stuff. But there is no exaggeration when cd players and lp's get far better than what is offered at "a few hundered bucks."

That's almost like saying bose is as good as it gets.

IOW:

You like the sound of your cheap cd over your cheap turntable, but cannot speak to what high end actually sounds like to make a real judgement call. Stick to your guns though, whatever turns you on. But there is far better stuff out there.

"Wow, this Hundai tiberon is as good as sports cars get, there is no reason to spend more because the rest is a waste of money for little improvement"

[Feanor]

I didn't flame you before, but you stated exactly as I suspected. You do not own high end, and cannot speak from experiance, and do not have a good point of reference. You are making a call from rationalizing cheap gear. I won't say it doesn't sound good, but it is a long way from what vinyl and digital can do.

Sure, I might like cd better if all I knew was sub $1k stuff. But there is no exaggeration when cd players and lp's get far better than what is offered at "a few hundered bucks."

That's almost like saying bose is as good as it gets.
..

I'll never know how great vinyl sounds either. Yes, on my cheap "mid-fi" crap, the superiority of that medium, such as it might be, isn't evident.

I'm not making the "diminishing returns" defence. Nor the, "I have more brains than money" defence. The fact is I'd probably spend the dough if I had it. Maybe then I'd find out.

Meanwhile I'll just have to take your word for the greatness of vinyl.

[hifitommy]

is in de back yard. its a good defense against trespassers. ;^)

[rb122]

I wouldn't spend more than a few hundred dollars for either a turntable or CD player. As you know, there's a point of diminishing returns when you reach stratospheric heights in audio (or anything else for that matter). I've never found CDs "cold", "vapid" or any of the other adjectives some audiophiles use to describe their sound. The quiet background alone sold me on CDs as preference to vinyl.

There's no need for you to defend your preference. If you're happy with CD's, I'm happy for you. I hear it differently but that's ok, too. On the other hand, when I compare a "few hundred" dollar turntable with a few hundred dollar CD player, the difference between the two medium is lessened, as Sondek pointed out. But as you said, CD over vinyl any day for you. Enjoy!

[Norm Strong]

I wouldn't spend more than a few hundred dollars for either a turntable or CD player. As you know, there's a point of diminishing returns when you reach stratospheric heights in audio (or anything else for that matter). I've never found CDs "cold", "vapid" or any of the other adjectives some audiophiles use to describe their sound. The quiet background alone sold me on CDs as preference to vinyl.

What is the smallest amount that qualifies as "a few hundred dollars"? I would guess $300, which would be excessive for any CD player (IMHO)

There's something wrong when an audiophile pays more for a turntable, arm & cartridge than the price of the master recording lathe that made the original.

[RGA]

There's something wrong when an audiophile pays more for a turntable, arm & cartridge than the price of the master recording lathe that made the original.

Do you have a technical reason with proof as to why?

[DMK]

[QUOTE=Norm Strong
There's something wrong when an audiophile pays more for a turntable, arm & cartridge than the price of the master recording lathe that made the original.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm... there must then also be something wrong when a music lover pays more for a pair of speakers than the price of a pair of studio microphones used to record. Or spending more for a complete system than the price of the acoustic guitar that made the recording. Er... not that I'm dogging your opinion, Norm! That's a good way to get thrown out of here! But...ah... is fidelity a dirty word where you come from????

[rb122]

I'll take CDs over vinyl any day. I've got both, including the same recordings (one on vinyl, the other on CD), and the CDs sound better (crisper, clearer, quieter). Do an A-B comparison of Beatles records, and this becomes very apparent. Yes, I still listen to my LPs on my Thorens TD166 mk2 (coupled with a Sumiko Pearl cartridge - no wonder the CDs sound better; is that what you're thinking?). Ergonomically, CDs make more sense, and, as I've said, they sound better - bringing to life some 1930s opera recordings (like act 2 of Die Valcarie with Lauritz Melchoir) that sound like 1930s opera recordings on LP. And I certainly don't miss the clicks and pops which, since CDs came available, are almost intolerable. Go ahead, flame me.

Try doing the same Beatles comparison using the original LP's rather than one of the multiple reissues that seem to get steadily worse sounding as they go forward. All vinyl is not the same, either. The original LP's are absolutely the only source to listen to the Beatles and hear the music as it was intended, IMHO.

[Sondek]

I forgot to point out that there is some mediocre, and crappy vinyl out there that really cannot be used to judge what a deck or a recording sounds like.

I have some recordings that got re-mastered and the cd is a bit better than the original pressing. This is again, not a good determining thing.

A properly modded/equipped thorens will make some excellent music. The one thing it may miss vs a heavily modded unit, or more expensive player is a rich timbre, and tonality. Less expensive decks seems to sound reasonably well detailed, but fall just short of a really involving experiance to separate it from a decent cdp. But if I had a thorens, I'd not hesitate to equip it with a decent arm, and $300- $600 cart before I decided.

The lowest priced cdp I have heard that sounds decent is $400. But there is no way you'd mistake one for a $700 or $1200 cd player. Cd players just do not have a decent analog stage for a few hundred bucks. They might sound decent, but they are highly omissive.

FWIW: I cannot listen to the 1812 overture (Telarc) Lp in it's entirety, my cartridge will not track it. But the cd has frighteningly powerful bass. That in itself is a bit of an advantage.

But again, since I can hear differences in ambient recovery (decay) that cheap cd players do not have---that alone is worth a better deck. I am not sure there is a commercial cd player under $4,000 USD that has real ambient detail. However, there are decent $800 turntables that do.

[eleiko]

Try doing the same Beatles comparison using the original LP's rather than one of the multiple reissues that seem to get steadily worse sounding as they go forward. All vinyl is not the same, either. The original LP's are absolutely the only source to listen to the Beatles and hear the music as it was intended, IMHO.

Actually, I do have some "original" vinyal pressings of the Beatles - Abbey Road, The White Album, Sgt. Pepper - all on Parlaphone, the British EMI label that my grandmother brought back from her trip to England over 30 years ago. Still, my CD copy of, for example, "As My Guitar Gently Weeps" (on a compilation CD) sounds better.

[eleiko]

I own a NAD CD player which I purchased in 1987 for about $350. If I had to replace it (it still works great), I'd expect to spend between $400 and $550 for what I want. $1000? No efin way! I've been told by several sources that to equal even mass market CD player sound, you'd have to spend over $1000 (a conservative estimate) on the right table, arm and cartridge combo. Personally, I don't find it feasible (priorities, priorities), though I don't begrudge those that do. By the way, I do notice a significant difference, mid-range especially, between my Sumiko mm Pearl cartridge and the Denon mc I owned prior to the Sumiko. I've considered replacing the Pearl with the high output mc Sumiko Blue ? Special.

[DMK]

I own a NAD CD player which I purchased in 1987 for about $350. If I had to replace it (it still works great), I'd expect to spend between $400 and $550 for what I want. $1000? No efin way! I've been told by several sources that to equal even mass market CD player sound, you'd have to spend over $1000 (a conservative estimate) on the right table, arm and cartridge combo. Personally, I don't find it feasible (priorities, priorities), though I don't begrudge those that do. By the way, I do notice a significant difference, mid-range especially, between my Sumiko mm Pearl cartridge and the Denon mc I owned prior to the Sumiko. I've considered replacing the Pearl with the high output mc Sumiko Blue ? Special.

"I've been told by several sources that to equal even mass market CD player sound, you'd have to spend over $1000 (a conservative estimate) on the right table, arm and cartridge combo."

Not at all, particularly if you are willing to look into the used market. I bought an old Technics table/arm with a cheap Ortofon cartridge for $50 and it sounds great! Not the best but better than CD and it's for a second system I had until recently and now my kids use it. I mean no disrespect to whoever gave you this advice, but they're WAY off the mark! Do these people perchance sell analog gear? Your Thorens with the Sumiko BPS should DESTROY a mass market CD player - and you already own the Thorens! By the way, the BPS from the Pearl is quite a jump in quality. Do you recall which Denon you owned? They make wonderful mc cartridges that are fairly inexpensive.

Also, curious about something - your old NAD CD player. NAD was known until fairly recently to have good Dac's and lousy transports. If my one NAD is any indication, the rumors are true as mine won't track worth a durn. But you apparently have had no issues with that, true? The nice thing is that the current NAD that is comparable to yours is probably still $350!

[Sondek]

I own a NAD CD player which I purchased in 1987 for about $350. If I had to replace it (it still works great), I'd expect to spend between $400 and $550 for what I want. $1000? No efin way! I've been told by several sources that to equal even mass market CD player sound, you'd have to spend over $1000 (a conservative estimate) on the right table, arm and cartridge combo. Personally, I don't find it feasible (priorities, priorities), though I don't begrudge those that do. By the way, I do notice a significant difference, mid-range especially, between my Sumiko mm Pearl cartridge and the Denon mc I owned prior to the Sumiko. I've considered replacing the Pearl with the high output mc Sumiko Blue ? Special.

Used Rega or as was pointed out in another thread, project. Those new are $600- $800, used for radically less. Goldring, Grado, Ortofon, Sumiko all make good $300 carts. You can have a new/nearly new deck, cart and arm (like a rega p2) hotrodded for under $1 grand.

No mass market cd player under $1200 comes close to a properly invested $1200 in vinyl. The detail just isn't there, nor the fluidity.

What "several sources?" I don't need others to tell me what I have actually experianced firsthand. Mass market cd players really don't do a whole lot under $1k for detail. You obviously have no idea what a good cd or Lp actually does sound like.

You are making judgements based upon total hearsay, and using mediocre gear to conclude "findings"

Most of my LP's are dead silent. That comes from proper care and periodic cleaning.

NAD started making a "decent" cdp in the C540. Before that, they were mediocre at best. Now they are a "good value" but fall obviously short when compared to a $1200 player.

[eleiko]

Used Rega or as was pointed out in another thread, project. Those new are $600- $800, used for radically less. Goldring, Grado, Ortofon, Sumiko all make good $300 carts. You can have a new/nearly new deck, cart and arm (like a rega p2) hotrodded for under $1 grand.

No mass market cd player under $1200 comes close to a properly invested $1200 in vinyl. The detail just isn't there, nor the fluidity.

What "several sources?" I don't need others to tell me what I have actually experianced firsthand. Mass market cd players really don't do a whole lot under $1k for detail. You obviously have no idea what a good cd or Lp actually does sound like.

You are making judgements based upon total hearsay, and using mediocre gear to conclude "findings"

Most of my LP's are dead silent. That comes from proper care and periodic cleaning.

NAD started making a "decent" cdp in the C540. Before that, they were mediocre at best. Now they are a "good value" but fall obviously short when compared to a $1200 player.

I'll admit that I've never listened to "reference" sources. Then again, I don't seem to have the "golden ears" claimed by some audiophiles who perceive detail and nuance better than I ever could or imagine. Obviously, I do hear sound differences in speakers, for it's the speakers, as we all know, that produce the greatest disparity in sound. And I did, as noted, hear the difference between my Denon MC cartridge and the subsequently purchased Simiko Pearl. But the subtleties in tone and such described by some here don't, in my view, justify the costs for the associated equipment. Besides, at 54, my hearing isn't what it was 20 or 30 years ago. You reach a certain age and there's definite roll-off, starting at the high end of the spectrum. And no $10,000 CD player or turntable is going to correct that.

[DMK]

Actually, I do have some "original" vinyal pressings of the Beatles - Abbey Road, The White Album, Sgt. Pepper - all on Parlaphone, the British EMI label that my grandmother brought back from her trip to England over 30 years ago. Still, my CD copy of, for example, "As My Guitar Gently Weeps" (on a compilation CD) sounds better.

I can't argue with what you hear. But I can say that if the LP's have been well cared for, you are in the distinct minority with your preference for the CD - for what that's worth. The original Parlophones are highly sought after.

Speaking of worth - and again, if the vinyl is in good shape - they're worth some major bucks on the collector market! If you're interested in selling the LP's, you should check into that. Perhaps a city close to you has a record show or something.

[eleiko]

I can't argue with what you hear. But I can say that if the LP's have been well cared for, you are in the distinct minority with your preference for the CD - for what that's worth. The original Parlophones are highly sought after.

Speaking of worth - and again, if the vinyl is in good shape - they're worth some major bucks on the collector market! If you're interested in selling the LP's, you should check into that. Perhaps a city close to you has a record show or something.

I have 5 Beatles albums on Parlaphone: The three I already listed in addition to Rubber Soul and Revolver, all in near mint condition. I wouldn't have thought they'd be worth that much. My regret is not keeping the Rubber Soul album on the Capital label because it contained a great, though under-rated McCartney number you don't hear played that much - "I've Just Seen A Face" ("I've just seen a face I can't forget the time or place where we just met she's just the girl for me/ and I want all the world to see we've met...")

[hifitommy]

yeah, i am thinking the pearl is better dropped in the garbage disposal. figuratively speaking, that cart is no pearl. of course dont destroy it, give it to a needy friend. SERIOUSLY. in its price range, get a grado black and be much happier with music. for a hundred, an AT440ML is the choice or a shure m97xe.

a shure v15Vxmr can be had for $200! up the ladder to the clearaudio aurum beta. moving coil definition for mm prices and output.

the pearl is limiting you to entry level vinyl and cd sound. youve got a good tt, put a decent cart on it.

clicks and pops only detract from the music if you focus on them. focus on the music instead. it works. the 1812 on telarc should only be tried with top cartridges and tonearms. lets face it, its one of the most challenging recordings on vinyl. yeah, cd is more conducive to playing this cut without fault but more musical value comes through with analog.

there are SOME people for whom analog isnt right. for those people, ticks and pops ruin the music. they should not buy vinyl. to maintain the level of musicality of vinyl and still remain digital, go for sacd. dvda MIGHT do but i cant say.

the lowest priced rbcd player ive heard in my system is my sony ns500v ($169 shipped). it is wonderful, better than any i have had in the house, and thats quite a few. good analog or digital doesnt need to be expensive. for $2-500 a good tt can be had, same for cdps. still, at that level, vinyl will sound better overall.

let me say that at the $100 level, a cdp WILL sound better than a tt. at the $200 level, it reverses. from there up, vinyl will sound better for the same money. and the gap widens in favor of vinyl as you go up. at $1k, the difference is laughable. vinyl is hands down the winner there.

at new prices, the mmf5, at about $5-700 is unbeatable. at used pricing, its even nicer.

eleiko, what ever possessed you to unload the denon cart? and how could you base your arguement on the pearl???

dan, my friend had two nad cdps and never a prob with the transport. the dac compared on equal footing to the AA dac in the box, not bad. it worked very well with the cal sigma tubed dac, a NICE unit.

eleiko, being 6 years your senior, i DO hear the diffs and it doesnt take golden ears. it takes educated ones. that can be acquired.

[joeychitwood]

....a shure v15Vxmr can be had for $200! up the ladder to the clearaudio aurum beta. moving coil definition for mm prices and output....

I'd love to find that cartridge for less than $325. Do you have a link where it can be had for $200? Thanks.

[hifitommy]

I'd love to find that cartridge for less than $325. Do you have a link where it can be had for $200? Thanks.

trty here but you have to request it.

http://www.jacksmusicfactory.com/default.asp

[hifitommy]

http://www.jacksmusicfactory.com/default.asp

you may have to ask for it.

[kajguy]

This is a great discussion and, frankly, I appreciate the merit to both arguments. I have very mid-range Turntables and CD Players and there is clearly a difference in sound between the two formats using the same material. On the turntable, there are the irritations of little nicks and pops. However, the sound on the CDs just, to my ears, does not sound as "life like" as the best of my vinyl stuff. Then, there is that "compression" issue.

For day in and day out listening the cleaness, the convenience and programmability of the CDs can't be beat. But, I must confess, when I really want to treat myself to some aural pleasure, I go to one of those few MINT LPs I have lying around. That makes me pretty happy until the neighbor starts pounding on the wall.

[eleiko]

yeah, i am thinking the pearl is better dropped in the garbage disposal. figuratively speaking, that cart is no pearl. of course dont destroy it, give it to a needy friend. SERIOUSLY. in its price range, get a grado black and be much happier with music. for a hundred, an AT440ML is the choice or a shure m97xe.

a shure v15Vxmr can be had for $200! up the ladder to the clearaudio aurum beta. moving coil definition for mm prices and output.

the pearl is limiting you to entry level vinyl and cd sound. youve got a good tt, put a decent cart on it.

clicks and pops only detract from the music if you focus on them. focus on the music instead. it works. the 1812 on telarc should only be tried with top cartridges and tonearms. lets face it, its one of the most challenging recordings on vinyl. yeah, cd is more conducive to playing this cut without fault but more musical value comes through with analog.

there are SOME people for whom analog isnt right. for those people, ticks and pops ruin the music. they should not buy vinyl. to maintain the level of musicality of vinyl and still remain digital, go for sacd. dvda MIGHT do but i cant say.

the lowest priced rbcd player ive heard in my system is my sony ns500v ($169 shipped). it is wonderful, better than any i have had in the house, and thats quite a few. good analog or digital doesnt need to be expensive. for $2-500 a good tt can be had, same for cdps. still, at that level, vinyl will sound better overall.

let me say that at the $100 level, a cdp WILL sound better than a tt. at the $200 level, it reverses. from there up, vinyl will sound better for the same money. and the gap widens in favor of vinyl as you go up. at $1k, the difference is laughable. vinyl is hands down the winner there.

at new prices, the mmf5, at about $5-700 is unbeatable. at used pricing, its even nicer.

eleiko, what ever possessed you to unload the denon cart? and how could you base your arguement on the pearl???

dan, my friend had two nad cdps and never a prob with the transport. the dac compared on equal footing to the AA dac in the box, not bad. it worked very well with the cal sigma tubed dac, a NICE unit.

eleiko, being 6 years your senior, i DO hear the diffs and it doesnt take golden ears. it takes educated ones. that can be acquired.

Hi Tommy: I got rid of the Denon because it had over 500 hours of play time. If it was designed to play for much longer, I wasn't aware of it. I don't think the Sumiko Pearl is bad, but it can't compete with the Denon I had in extracting detail. If there's some way I could A/B the Pearl and Blue Point - there isn't - I'd do it and then buy the latter if the sound differences warranted it.