Cartrdge Recommendation - help

[DMK]

Consequently, I favor moving coil cartridges for their superior resolution and transient response IMHO.
rw

Absolutely agree. The MM cartridges I've listened to (Grado, Shure, Goldring) just don't compete in these areas, although I've never been able to fault their midrange capabilities. I much prefer a cartridge that is flat throughout the entire frequency spectrum rather than one that rolls off or sounds veiled when the going gets tough. My first listen to an MC cartridge was a revelation and I've never looked back.

[skeptic]

Do the moving magnet cartridges have a flat response while the moving coils have a high end peak or do the moving coils have the flat response while the moving magnet models have a high end rolloff? The frequency response graphs and square wave response photos tell the story. The answer is the first case. And the reason is very simple. When you think about it, the principle of converting a mechanical vibration into an electrical signal is the same for both designs, the magnetic lines of force of a permanent magnet breaking a coil of wire therby generating a voltage. The only difference is that in the moving magnet design, the magnet moves relative to a fixed coil while in the moving coil design, the coil moves relative to a fixed magnet. Which variant is better? The one with the lower dynamic mass. And that is clearly the moving magnet. While extremely small magnets can be very powerful for their intended function, the mass of a coil of copper wire is restricted by the gage of the copper and the number of turns of wire required as well as the spool. Also the compliance of the lead wires becomes a factor. The high mass results not only in substantially more inertia but in lower compliance styli assemblies and greater resonances. Also fewer turns of copper means lower voltage output necessating more electronic amplification.

However, whichever you choose, you can change the frequency response of the output using an equalizer or tone controls. Don't like the idea of equalization? Then consider this. Moving magnet or moving coil, the first thing that happens to the signal from the cartridge in the preamp is that it is equalized. Why? Ever hear of the RIAA curve? Do you know how microgroove long playing records are made? On recording the high frequency response of the tape is boosted so that the signal overcomes the surface background noise on the disc and the bass is cut so that it doesn't overmodulate the recording beyond the cartridge's ability to track it and to conserve space to make a long playing record possible. Upon playback, this frequency response equalization must be corrected for by processing it through an inverse equalizer. So you get equalization whether you like it or not. What cannot be compensated for is the high dynamic mass requiring greater tracking force to keep the record in the groove and make it follow the wiggles. Therefore, as a bonus for buying a MC cartridge, you get greater record and stylus wear on each playing and as a further added bonus, most MC cartridges have to go back to the factory for stylus replacement which is far more labor intensive than the three seconds it takes to slide one stylus out and another in for a MM cartridge.

[DMK]

Do the moving magnet cartridges have a flat response while the moving coils have a high end peak or do the moving coils have the flat response while the moving magnet models have a high end rolloff? The frequency response graphs and square wave response photos tell the story. The answer is the first case. And the reason is very simple. When you think about it, the principle of converting a mechanical vibration into an electrical signal is the same for both designs, the magnetic lines of force of a permanent magnet breaking a coil of wire therby generating a voltage. The only difference is that in the moving magnet design, the magnet moves relative to a fixed coil while in the moving coil design, the coil moves relative to a fixed magnet. Which variant is better? The one with the lower dynamic mass. And that is clearly the moving magnet. While extremely small magnets can be very powerful for their intended function, the mass of a coil of copper wire is restricted by the gage of the copper and the number of turns of wire required as well as the spool. Also the compliance of the lead wires becomes a factor. The high mass results not only in substantially more inertia but in lower compliance styli assemblies and greater resonances. Also fewer turns of copper means lower voltage output necessating more electronic amplification.

However, whichever you choose, you can change the frequency response of the output using an equalizer or tone controls. Don't like the idea of equalization? Then consider this. Moving magnet or moving coil, the first thing that happens to the signal from the cartridge in the preamp is that it is equalized. Why? Ever hear of the RIAA curve? Do you know how microgroove long playing records are made? On recording the high frequency response of the tape is boosted so that the signal overcomes the surface background noise on the disc and the bass is cut so that it doesn't overmodulate the recording beyond the cartridge's ability to track it and to conserve space to make a long playing record possible. Upon playback, this frequency response equalization must be corrected for by processing it through an inverse equalizer. So you get equalization whether you like it or not. What cannot be compensated for is the high dynamic mass requiring greater tracking force to keep the record in the groove and make it follow the wiggles. Therefore, as a bonus for buying a MC cartridge, you get greater record and stylus wear on each playing and as a further added bonus, most MC cartridges have to go back to the factory for stylus replacement which is far more labor intensive than the three seconds it takes to slide one stylus out and another in for a MM cartridge.

Please share with us any and all frequency response graphs you have on MC and MM cartridges. When's the last time you saw one? Many, many years ago - back when MC's had high end peaks? Granted, some still do and others can based on measurable parameters with other pieces of gear in the chain. But the problem you're citing is largely theoretical these days, along with most of the other problems associated with vinyl playback. Oh, and I have no problem with equalization. I simply prefer to get my system as transparent and neutral as possible first.

No question MM cartridges have some advantages - higher output, ease of stylus change. Sound is a disadvantage IMHO. There is less realism, less resolution, less detail. If being able to replace the stylus yourself is worth this, then by all means go for it. And record wear? Hmmm... I suppose records still wear out, but I haven't had that happen in many years. In fact, I still regularly play LP's from the 1950's. More record CARE = less record WEAR. And no one is dissing your Shure cartridge - at least no one who's ever spent any time with it. It's a world beater for $325. But it is NOT, and I repeat NOT the state of the art in cartridges - far from it. But there are other MM cartridges that are twice as expensive that aren't as good. There are even some MC's that bow to the Shure. But compared to a more expensive MC, the Shure comes up short. You disagree and that is your right. But don't cite some graphs and a bunch of theory and tell those of us who have heard better that MM's are the best cartridges - that ol' dog is too old and weak to hunt. We've heard the measurement schtick with digital, amps, preamps, tubes vs solid state and on and on ad nauseum. I prefer to listen, thanks.

Now, since arguing MC's vs MM's is hardly worthy of your talents, gimme an opinion that is. Do you prefer the Perlman or the Mintz reading of Paganini's Caprices? I have several different copies of these pieces by several different violinists and while I have picked these two as the two best, I can't decide which is better, if either. Little help? Which is your favorite, and why? I'd really like to know and talking music is WAY more interesting than talking gear, no?

[skeptic]

In my house, Heifetz is the gold standard by which all other violinists are measured. I'd have to see if I even have the others. One thing I can say. I'm not too impressed by Rugero Ricci's recording. Let me look around and see what recordings I've got. The only versions I've heard of it recently was a piano arrangement of the 24th and 9th by Liszt played by a Russian finalist in the 1994 Van Cliburn competition on Phillips and a guitar arrangement on Naxos. A version on viola was pure torture to listen to.

[DMK]

In my house, Heifetz is the gold standard by which all other violinists are measured. I'd have to see if I even have the others. One thing I can say. I'm not too impressed by Rugero Ricci's recording. Let me look around and see what recordings I've got. The only versions I've heard of it recently was a piano arrangement of the 24th and 9th by Liszt played by a Russian finalist in the 1994 Van Cliburn competition on Phillips and a guitar arrangement on Naxos. A version on viola was pure torture to listen to.

Piano, guitar and viola??? Well, I suppose it can be done but this is the first I've heard of the Caprices done on anything but a violin. I'm just talking about the solo violin 24 Caprices.

I heard some viola/violist jokes about a year ago and found them humorous but I can't remember a single one now! My one recording of Bach's "Cello Suites" is done on viola, hence the name change to "Viola Suites". Too bad, because the cello is one of the three or four instruments I most enjoy listening to when played solo.

I agree with your comment about Heifetz, although I'm also a big fan of Perlman and Irvine Arditti. And MC cartridges, heh heh! Not that I'm trying to start anything!

[skeptic]

The theme of the Paganini caprice number 24 is one of the most famous in music. It's certainly a show stopper on any instrument and is often used by violinists as an encore. This theme has been experimented with by many many arrangers and composers. Undoubtedly the most famous was Rachmaninoff who used it for his "Rhapsody on a theme of Paganini." But there were many others including Brahms who wrote two books of them. IMO, this theme traces its history back to the Mideval theme "Dies Irae" which also fascinated many composers including Berlioz who used it in the witches sabboth of his "Symphonie Fantastique", Rachmaninoff used it in many compositions including "Isle of the Dead" and most notably Liszt used it in a spectacular piece called "Totentanz" or dance of death. Rachmaninoff used it for three of the variations in his Rhapsody. However, in listening to Bach carefully, I think that the Pasacaglia was yet another variant on this theme. I view the Pasacaglia as a stripped down version of the Paganini theme and the Dies Irae as further stripped to its barest essentials. Small wonder that every instrumentalist who makes any pretense of being a virtuoso wants to play it on his own instrument. But it is a killer.

BTW, here are some of the discs I've referenced.
The Liszt can be found on Philips 438 906-2 Van Cliburn 9th International Piano Competition played by Valery Kuleshow
The guitar arrangement can be found on Romantic Guitar Favoirtes Naxos 8.550296 played by Gerald Garcia
There are also many of them in a Vox Box CD3X 3020 called Paganini Variations which includes variations by Liszt, Brahms, Rachmaninoff, and Schumann.
You can also hear some very wild variations by Witold Lutoslawski on Duo Piano Extravaganza, Martha Argerich and Friends on Philips 446 557-2.

I'm sure if you do your homework, you can find countless more but these are among the most famous.

BTW, we have in our collection every recording Heifetz ever made on both vinyl and cd. As I recall, between the two sets they were well over $1000. In my house, much more emphasis is put on acquiring recordings than equipment. I think we've reached a point of saturation where merely cataloging and storing them is a major problem.

[maxg]

"The only difference is that in the moving magnet design, the magnet moves relative to a fixed coil while in the moving coil design, the coil moves relative to a fixed magnet. Which variant is better? The one with the lower dynamic mass. And that is clearly the moving magnet."

Good grief - the absolute opposite of what I understood was the case!! I have always been told that moving coils shift less mass than moving magnets - in other words coils are lower mass than magnets - is this wrong? Are you sure?

Whatever the answer - I can't say it would sway me back into Moving magnet design - the last one I tried was the Clearaudio Virtuoso 2 which wasnt bad at all, but no match to the Shelter 901 to these ears..

[DMK]

The theme of the Paganini caprice number 24 is one of the most famous in music. It's certainly a show stopper on any instrument and is often used by violinists as an encore. This theme has been experimented with by many many arrangers and composers. Undoubtedly the most famous was Rachmaninoff who used it for his "Rhapsody on a theme of Paganini." But there were many others including Brahms who wrote two books of them. IMO, this theme traces its history back to the Mideval theme "Dies Irae" which also fascinated many composers including Berlioz who used it in the witches sabboth of his "Symphonie Fantastique", Rachmaninoff used it in many compositions including "Isle of the Dead" and most notably Liszt used it in a spectacular piece called "Totentanz" or dance of death. Rachmaninoff used it for three of the variations in his Rhapsody. However, in listening to Bach carefully, I think that the Pasacaglia was yet another variant on this theme. I view the Pasacaglia as a stripped down version of the Paganini theme and the Dies Irae as further stripped to its barest essentials. Small wonder that every instrumentalist who makes any pretense of being a virtuoso wants to play it on his own instrument. But it is a killer.

BTW, here are some of the discs I've referenced.
The Liszt can be found on Philips 438 906-2 Van Cliburn 9th International Piano Competition played by Valery Kuleshow
The guitar arrangement can be found on Romantic Guitar Favoirtes Naxos 8.550296 played by Gerald Garcia
There are also many of them in a Vox Box CD3X 3020 called Paganini Variations which includes variations by Liszt, Brahms, Rachmaninoff, and Schumann.
You can also hear some very wild variations by Witold Lutoslawski on Duo Piano Extravaganza, Martha Argerich and Friends on Philips 446 557-2.

I'm sure if you do your homework, you can find countless more but these are among the most famous.

BTW, we have in our collection every recording Heifetz ever made on both vinyl and cd. As I recall, between the two sets they were well over $1000. In my house, much more emphasis is put on acquiring recordings than equipment. I think we've reached a point of saturation where merely cataloging and storing them is a major problem.

Thanks for the info. In a twist of coincidence, I just bought the Vox Box of Paganini Variations yesterday but haven't been able to listen to it yet - I'll do so tonight. I saw the 24 variations by Rachmaninoff but didn't make the connection. One of the discs in my collection that I find interesting is the Naxos 8.110601 of his Piano Concertos #2 + 3 because Sergey himself is playing the piano! A fuzzy mono recording taken from 79 RPM's but still exciting.

Guitarist Gerald Garcia - I'm assuming that's not the same Jerry Garcia that played for years with the rock band Grateful Dead.

I know what you mean about being overrun with recordings. In the past four years or so, I've upgraded my phono cartridge and that's it besides adding an outboard CD recorder. Recordings never stop coming in. I haven't done an actual count lately but I'm sure it's rapidly approaching 10,000. As a result, I have to cut corners where I can. So I bought some of those large multi-shelf tupperware-looking tool cases from Wal-Mart. I then bought vinyl sleeves for my CD's and pitched all the plastic jewel cases. I can store all my CD's in two of these, excepting boxed sets which I keep intact. Space requirements for about 4000 CD's is 5' H x 3' W x 3' D. Both these cases fit into the closet in my spare bedroom, which because of their looks is where they belong, anyway.

[E-Stat]

Do the moving magnet cartridges have a flat response while the moving coils have a high end peak or do the moving coils have the flat response while the moving magnet models have a high end rolloff?

Would you characterize the +/- 2db response from 20-20k of my Dynavector DV-20XL as possessing a high end peak?

http://www.dynavector.co.jp/english/...art/e_20x.html

One model up the Dynavector food chain is the Karat 17. You will find a B&K graph where it is within +/- 0.5 db from 20-20k.

http://www.dynavector.co.jp/english/...rt/e_17d2.html

Ever hear of the RIAA curve?

Sure. While I eschew the 30 hz rumble filter specification, I find the Dynavector models able to track the RIAA curve rather accurately, thank you very much. Frequency response is but one aspect of a phono cartridge's sound quality.

Oh, lest I forget. Let's discuss this canard:

Which variant is better? The one with the lower dynamic mass. And that is clearly the moving magnet.

Uh, no. I do, however, understand the concept. That's why I favor full range electrostatic speakers. There is neither wire nor magnets in the moving mass. Just 0.00065 inches thick of mylar. Back to cartridges. You may find some non-representative example of a heavier moving mass MC cartridge, but the opposite is usually true. Even 70 turns of 11 micron wire doesn't weight a whole bunch. Think of the other side of transducers. Most conventional speakers are of the moving coil variety. Can you imagine the (dreadful) transient response of a tweeter where the magnet was part of the moving mass? BTW, how many moving magnet loudspeakers are there on the market? A random check of various tweeters in all price ranges finds the mass of the magnetic structure to be 10 to 30 times that of the moving coil structure. LOL !!

rw

[DMK]

[QUOTE=E-Stat]Would you characterize the +/- 2db response from 20-20k of my Dynavector DV-20XL as possessing a high end peak?

http://www.dynavector.co.jp/english/...art/e_20x.html

One model up the Dynavector food chain is the Karat 17. You will find a B&K graph where it is within +/- 0.5 db from 20-20k.

http://www.dynavector.co.jp/english/...rt/e_17d2.html



I'd call that "essentially flat" which coincidentally is how Shure describes its flagship cartridge!