Why receivers are not as good as amplifiers

[Florian]

Try driving my Scintilla's with 10 Watts
The Mid ribbon has 0.2ohm and they need at least a kilowatt to make them sing..... something tells me i need another Krell block.

-Flo

[RGA]

Try driving my Scintilla's with 10 Watts
The Mid ribbon has 0.2ohm and they need at least a kilowatt to make them sing..... something tells me i need another Krell block.

-Flo

Yes some speakers for some reason unknown to me require a lot of power -- but it is unecessary to play loud and it's unecessary to have deep bass. The problem I find with a lot of hard to drive speakers is not really the speaker -- but the fact that I would have to buy a high powered amp -- probably a SS amp and that will never happen again.

[Florian]

Yes some speakers for some reason unknown to me require a lot of power -- but it is unecessary to play loud and it's unecessary to have deep bass. The problem I find with a lot of hard to drive speakers is not really the speaker -- but the fact that I would have to buy a high powered amp -- probably a SS amp and that will never happen again.

I think that it is very necessary to have deep bass. Listen to the war of 1812 from the Deutsche Grammophon. Or listen to Madonna with a speaker that plays down to 22Hz...mamma mia its amazing. Bass is a foundation in classical music. Vacuumstate is working on a Tube AMP for the 1ohm Scintilla's and u can always use a Tube Preamp.

-Flo

[kexodusc]

You don't necessarily need alot of power for true deep bass. There's plenty of high efficiency designed 8" or 10" woofers used in speakers that sound excellent...
Come to think of it, most subwoofers are pretty efficient, some in the mid to high 90 dB's.
But it is a bit of a tradeoff, the question being whether to invest more money into a building or buying highly efficient, 8 ohm nominal woofer, or buy a bigger amp. I suspect buying more power is often cheaper, or at least a better buy since a bigger and better amp can benefit the whole frequency spectrum and not just bass.
If you're a loyal tube fan and use tube amps exclusively, then efficiency is probably a bigger concern to you.

[RGA]

I think that it is very necessary to have deep bass. Listen to the war of 1812 from the Deutsche Grammophon. Or listen to Madonna with a speaker that plays down to 22Hz...mamma mia its amazing. Bass is a foundation in classical music. Vacuumstate is working on a Tube AMP for the 1ohm Scintilla's and u can always use a Tube Preamp.

-Flo

I think it's necessary as well -- my speakers were measured to 20hz -3db by hifi chouice magazine - they will play loud and don;t require more than 10 watts. I am forced into taking a system approach and because SS has a grainy sound to my ear which is "amplified" in higher watt amps then I need a speaker that will not incoprporate that kind of amplificatiion. This is one reason that while I can recommend a lot of speakers that are low efficiency -- I could never actually buy one because I'd get stuck having to buy something like a Krell (which to my ear are not going to cut it).

I am not going to argue of this because it's simply a preference --- I've heard Bryston, Krell YBA, Sima Audio, Naim, Classe, Levinson, McIntiosh, MF and several other big SS companies over the years. I am now very very aware as to why so many people end up buying a TUBE preamp...they would be able to go the whole way if they chose more efficient easier to drive speakers in the first place.

Hermanv

I won't really argue your geenralization because a generalization does not mean that there are no exception...a generalization means IN GENERAL. It amuses me that people get on me for making generalalizations as well -- I once said that Receivers were glorified paper-weights...I still believe this is the case. That doesn;t mean they're valueless -- after making the comment I bought a Marantz 4300 reciever. They have their purpose --- for music listening it doesn't cut it but it does do a job for me at an attractive price.

I generalize that speakers using metal tweeters are annoying -- there are some exceptions but the majority I have heard I can't stomach for long.

A price range is dangerous though -- I have heard $50k amplification with $16k speakers that compared to my system --- well I'd be more than happy to pit em in any blind test. (though granted my system's amp is above the range you specified)

I can point to the Sugden A21a integrated amp which isabout $1700US which sounds like music pure and simple. I can't say that about a lot of componants even ones going for 10 times that price. Granted Sugden has been able to keep the cost of this amplifier down because it's the same one that's been selling since 1968 so there is not a pile of R&D expense and they don't waste money on looks displays and remotes -- and it's also very close to your price range.

YBA for instance is an example where they have the integre DT for around $3500.00 and the a Separates version of the YBA for $12k. Same sound...the difference is the integre with easy to drive speakers will play to a 110db -- the guy with the low impedence tough to drive speaker can't use the DT so he has to spend the extra $9500 for big impressive looking amps to play to that 110db.

[corwin99]

I think it's necessary as well -- my speakers were measured to 20hz -3db by hifi chouice magazine - they will play loud and don;t require more than 10 watts.

That's quite the feat.. i'm skeptical about those numbers myself though. I've heard the speakers and I'll be in Victoria this weekend so maybe i will hear them again.

Which leads me to this.. how bout bringing them over for a gear shootout sometime? I have already assembled a small group of "audiophiles" from Victoria, Duncan and Campbell River to come down to my place for day to hang out and talk gear and music. BBQ, beer, the whole nine I fully expect you to decline, but hey, never hurts to ask

[topspeed]

Didn't anyone else notice the OP hasn't responded?

Why not start a post labeled "SS vs Tube" or "Ford vs. Chevy"?

Troll.

[RGA]

That's quite the feat.. i'm skeptical about those numbers myself though. I've heard the speakers and I'll be in Victoria this weekend so maybe i will hear them again.

Which leads me to this.. how bout bringing them over for a gear shootout sometime? I have already assembled a small group of "audiophiles" from Victoria, Duncan and Campbell River to come down to my place for day to hang out and talk gear and music. BBQ, beer, the whole nine I fully expect you to decline, but hey, never hurts to ask

Well you need to play music with real bass content because it isn't going to have the kind of peaky bump at 80hz...it is elevated slightly across a very wide band. The speaker was measured by hi-fi choice.

it should be noted that Audio note rates the J at 25hz -6db which likely means it is around 29-32hz - 3db which is around where the port tuning is done.

In soundhounds lill room across from the home theater room I put on a Bass content Loreena Mckennit track prologue which attracted to attention -- this was run off the 8 watt per channel Meishu. At a reasopnable level there isn't a speaker they carry that can match it (with any of their SS amps).

Why not take a pair home get them in a corner -- you won't need a sub. They ran the E's J's(as center speakers) in a surround system -- No sub required.

Where do you live? I'm very busy for the next three weeks but aftetr this practicum and course is done I am not busy.

[corwin99]

Why not take a pair home get them in a corner -- you won't need a sub. They ran the E's J's(as center speakers) in a surround system -- No sub required.

Where do you live? I'm very busy for the next three weeks but aftetr this practicum and course is done I am not busy.

I went to soundhounds this weekend and heard the AN J's... but not the Spe's... but they had a few pairs of AN/K Spe's left.. i heard them there... for about 5 minutes, and realized that they are VERY good speakers, and bought a pair just for the hell of it for my secondary system. Replaced a pair of Klipsch RB-% MKII's. They're breaking in right now... a bit of sibilance right now though. We'll see. The guy i dealt with was Paul.. he said he's your guy too. The AN J's that were there definately did not have the low end of my Gershmans, but the soundstaging is phenomenal.. they disappear so well.

At any rate, I live up in the North End.. up in the Dover area by Eagle Ridge/Eagle Point. Would love to have you over for the shootout/gettogether we are having.

[Florian]

That's quite the feat.. i'm skeptical about those numbers myself though. I've heard the speakers and I'll be in Victoria this weekend so maybe i will hear them again.

Which leads me to this.. how bout bringing them over for a gear shootout sometime? I have already assembled a small group of "audiophiles" from Victoria, Duncan and Campbell River to come down to my place for day to hang out and talk gear and music. BBQ, beer, the whole nine I fully expect you to decline, but hey, never hurts to ask

I would put in my Graz rebuild Scintilla, but at 231lbs a piece and a biatch to drive it wont happen. But then again, i dont need a shootout ......

[corwin99]

I would put in my Graz rebuild Scintilla, but at 231lbs a piece and a biatch to drive it wont happen. But then again, i dont need a shootout ......

Florian, would LOVE to hear the VMPS (or the Scintillas!) but the drive (and consequent swim) would likely be too much for you and the speakers.

[musicoverall]

Yes some speakers for some reason unknown to me require a lot of power -- but it is unecessary to play loud and it's unecessary to have deep bass. The problem I find with a lot of hard to drive speakers is not really the speaker -- but the fact that I would have to buy a high powered amp -- probably a SS amp and that will never happen again.

I use the ASL Hurricanes with my planars - 200 wpc tube design. It's just enough power.

[hermanv]

Since no one has gotten flamed for some pretty awsome generalizations I'll play too.

I think a good amp starts around $2,000 to $3,000 new, retail. I also think a good pre-amp is similarly priced. Now, throw in a decent tuner for $1,000 (and up) and reasonable DAC say another $1,000 We have arrived at $6,000 to $7,000.

Here's my problem, if you spend $6,000 for a receiver and are un-happy with some part of its' performance you are out of options, I can always replace one piece of my chain that I find not quite up to the rest of the chain but you need to throw out the baby with the bath water if you have a receiver that doesn't please.

So for me the issue is risk of investment. Also I worry that the very top priced receievers may be the same as a basic high volume model that sells for much less with some glitter smeared on to make it appear special.

Please standby while I don my flame suit.

[Feanor]

...I think a good amp starts around $2,000 to $3,000 new, retail. I also think a good pre-amp is similarly priced. Now, throw in a decent tuner for $1,000 (and up) and reasonable DAC say another $1,000 We have arrived at $6,000 to $7,000.
....

There are some great integrateds that can keep the cost down. I haven't heard many of them, but candidates would include Bel Canto eVo2i, Sim Audio i-3 & i-5, PS Audio GCC 100, and some models from Edge and Plinius .. oh yeah, and Bryston.

Of course, you do loose some flexibility with the integrated, (which is your point I suppose).