Upgrade time...maybe tube time?

[bobsticks]

Your cup runneth over with toys...

Cool stuff. I'm not surprised to hear that the Sphinxes weren't your cup of tea, if only because I've come to know yer preferences. Overly analytical aint it. I know you've been a fan of the Unicos, so maybe that'll be the amp de jour.

I'm glad you are treating yourself. All work and no tunes makes Jack a dull boy. Peace bro.

[Bernd]

Your cup runneth over with toys...

Cool stuff. I'm not surprised to hear that the Sphinxes weren't your cup of tea, if only because I've come to know yer preferences. Overly analytical aint it. I know you've been a fan of the Unicos, so maybe that'll be the amp de jour.

I'm glad you are treating yourself. All work and no tunes makes Jack a dull boy. Peace bro.

....., the Sphinx's lay it all open for you with clinical precision. It's great for detail fans, but just not for me.
As an analogy I like a sound somewhere in the middle of a Linn Klimax and CJ Premier 8s. I believe the Unison Research (as most Italien amps I heard do) family sound provides me with just that.I just like to be enveloped in the sound and in the middle of the music. Not so much being transported there, but the musician brought to my room with all the warmth that is needed to give me the illusion, if that makes any sense. Another amp I really like is the Dartzeel. Even though is all solid state. A great amp. Maybe one day.
The Sphinx's are not as cold or clinical as the Linn, much more musical though.

Peace your way too

[Feanor]

....., the Sphinx's lay it all open for you with clinical precision. It's great for detail fans, but just not for me.
...
Peace your way too

You can't have too much real detail, IMO. Real detail reveals itself not as a sharp-edged or etched sound, but as realistic spatial information plus separation of the different instruments & voices, i.e. transparency or "air".

The nice thing about my Monarchy amps is that they deliver the latter without any sharp edge. Nevertheless I think my former, Tripath-based, Bel Canto eVo2 amp had a slight advantage in transparency, however that was only evident on the very best recordings, since the amp did nothing to mitigate poorly recorded sound, or harsh or bright up-stream components.

Now that my music is being effectively filtered though my SF tube preamp, I'd be curious to hear the result though a good digital down-stream, (though I have no thought of replacing the Monarchys).

[jrhymeammo]

From what kinda understand, it is best to mate tube pre with power amps with higher input impedence. 40k or higher? But I'm not really sure why.
Has anyone mated tube pre with amps with say...20k or lower?
I believe my pre would prefer to drive amps with 10K ohm or higher, but I imagine higher the impedence, less strain on overall music..

I'm posting this because I was curious about Bel Canto amps for my VK-3i, but impedence input rating seems a bit lower than CIA D-200 or a pair of PSA A-100 I've been looking at.



also, does anybody know the specs of A-100 when used as mono? I've been searching it for about a week and still no luck.

Sorry about all the questions.

JRA

[Bernd]

[QUOTE=Feanor]You can't have too much real detail, IMO. Real detail reveals itself not as a sharp-edged or etched sound, but as realistic spatial information plus separation of the different instruments & voices, i.e. transparency or "air".

QUOTE]

100%. Bill, I meant to say that I just don't care much for that hard sharp etched detail. I love detail as anybody, in fact I look for it and expect it. I just prefer the musical presentation on the warmer, darker side rather than brightly etched. A balancing act for sure, because if all your system would be voiced that way it would sound pretty dull. It's the balance (or synergy to use an audiophile word) that I find so exciting and important to get right.

Peace

[Feanor]

From what kinda understand, it is best to mate tube pre with power amps with higher input impedence. 40k or higher? But I'm not really sure why.
Has anyone mated tube pre with amps with say...20k or lower?
I believe my pre would prefer to drive amps with 10K ohm or higher, but I imagine higher the impedence, less strain on overall music..

I'm posting this because I was curious about Bel Canto amps for my VK-3i, but impedence input rating seems a bit lower than CIA D-200 or a pair of PSA A-100 I've been looking at.

also, does anybody know the specs of A-100 when used as mono? I've been searching it for about a week and still no luck.

Sorry about all the questions.

JRA

The old rule of thumb is that input impedance should be 10x output impedance, but some people say that 100x is better. So if the power amp in question is 20K ohms, 200 ohms on the preamp should be no issue, but even 2000 might be satisfactory.

The nice thing about my Monarchys is that they're 100K, so no problem even with my old Adcom in passive mode which was <1200 on the balanced outputs. And no issue for sure with my SF which is 300, balanced.

[jrhymeammo]

Thanks Bill.

I believe I misread specs for my preamp. It has outputs of 1K Ohm instead of 10K. But, what I dont understand is that it's listed for 1K without specifying SE or balanced. I should try to find a manual somewhere for it didnt come with one.

I keep going back to MA website to check out their amps, especially SE160. There is a guy in Cinicy trying to sell his for $1600 a pair, which sounds like a good deal but brand new pair goes for $2K so I'm not quite sure. Also, trying to keep my electricity bill under $70 a month feeling cool.

This has been a great thread.

Peace,

JRA

[Mr Peabody]

Detail is a whole topic in itself. Krell is very good at pulling the info off the disc and letting you hear each detail but it plays each one in almost equal magnitude. Where with my CJ gear some of the detail is more difficult to hear because it's more subtle. Some may prefer what Krell does to be sure nothing is missed. My guess is that what CJ does is probably more like the actual performance because a tap of a Triangle or some other background detail may not have been intended to be heard as loud as the main instrument. Is CJ's presentation of detail due to the depth of the sound stage or does it, give the impression of depth?

Then you have the micro and macro dynamics which to me is almost more important because it provides more textual type information. This is detail as well.

So when people speak of detail are they talking about one system will allow me to hear that background Triangle where another will not or are they talking about this system will allow you to tell you are hearing a violin but the other will allow you to discern the brand, if you had that type of educated ear?

I remember after swapping the CJ into my system I played a Scott Hamilton disc that put some doubt in my mind. On my Krell there was a track where in the beginning of this slow song you could hear Scott's breath through the reed, very prominent. When playing the same track, same CD playback rig, that breath detail was very subtle. I try not to dwell on it or worry about what I'm missing. The CJ also isn't the last word in those bottom octaves. However, with all the trade offs I just find myself enjoying the CJ more when I listen.

Also I'm always amazed at those who say they want detail yet will not spend the money for a high quality CD playback. The detail has to be retrieved before it can be heard through expensive amps and speakers.

Have you noticed any differences in the presentation or type of detail from one system to another or tubes verses your solid state?

[Mr Peabody]

Jrhymeammo, 1k output impedance from a tube pre is a bit high for optimum mating with solid state. I don't know how much actual difference it will make, I just read that 500 or less is preferred.

[jrhymeammo]

Hey P,

Do you own NIN Year Zero?

On track #10, Trend whispers:

" I would never tell you anything that wasnt absolutely true........" In my current system, I cannot understand what he's saying unless I'm reading the booklet. I'm not sure if my speakers dips down on that certain frequency or what, but I'm going to change them to find out. But over all, everyone needs to have a balanced system. I can't imagine Flo play music thru Go-Video as a source player and claiming to hear micro/macro.

[jrhymeammo]

Jrhymeammo, 1k output impedance from a tube pre is a bit high for optimum mating with solid state. I don't know how much actual difference it will make, I just read that 500 or less is preferred.

Maybe for Bel Canto amps, but I think I'll be okay playing amps with 100K inputs. I hope to find out soon and report back.

Thank you,

JRA

[jrhymeammo]

This is what I've been reading from BAT website.



Is the requirement for minimum input resistance dictated by the output resistance of your preamps?

No. However, this is a popular misconception. It is common to apply some old rules-of -thumb to things like preamplifier to power amplifier interfaces and state that there should be some magic ratio between the output resistance of the preamp and the input resistance of its load. People commonly mention numbers in the 10:1 or 20:1 area, some as high as 100:1. Unfortunately, there is no truth to such claims. As many of us know, one can perfectly transmit a signal in a system where the load impedance is equal or even lower than the source impedance (witness any cable TV system). The unusual design of Balanced Audio Technology's preamplifiers allows their gain stages to drive loads with resistance much below what their specified output resistance ratings would imply. For example, the VK-50SE preamplifier can supply a load with 65mA peak current - an amount well beyond that of the great majority of preamplifiers on the market today. However, it is also important to understand the role of the output coupling capacitor, present at the output of BAT preamplifiers. It is the size of this capacitor that will dictate the minimum power amplifier input impedance, not the output resistance of the preamp.

[Mr Peabody]

Interesting. I wonder if it's a myth entirely or just with BAT preamps. I wish I can remember where I read the recommended impedance. But when I was looking into tube gear I was doing what you are, a lot of research. If I run across it I'll post a link.

[Feanor]

Detail is a whole topic in itself. Krell is very good at pulling the info off the disc and letting you hear each detail but it plays each one in almost equal magnitude. Where with my CJ gear some of the detail is more difficult to hear because it's more subtle.
...
Then you have the micro and macro dynamics which to me is almost more important because it provides more textual type information. This is detail as well.

So when people speak of detail are they talking about one system will allow me to hear that background Triangle where another will not or are they talking about this system will allow you to tell you are hearing a violin but the other will allow you to discern the brand, if you had that type of educated ear?
....

Have you noticed any differences in the presentation or type of detail from one system to another or tubes verses your solid state?

Mr.P, interesting comment about the subtlety of detail. Describing it that way rings true in my case. My Monarchys aren't tube, rather high class A-biased with zero global and power stage feedback. But they are definitely "subtler" than my Bel Canto and maybe I'm confusing this with slightly less transparency (... though I doubt it). The former are certainly smoother, less "edgy" than the latter, at least on bright recordings -- but Bel never sounded grainy or rough and was just about perfect on good recordings.

With the latest, Amperex tubes in my SF preamp I'm noticing a greater sense of depth than ever before. I have often hear people say that tubes do this, but is it greater accuracy or an artifact, I wonder? Does sound nice in any case.

[jrhymeammo]

I ended up commiting to PS Audio HCA-2 amp on Agon.

It has input impedence of 100K, so I dont think it would be terribly mismatched.
Now I gotta decide whether to go with MG12 or 1.6QR. Let the journey begin..

Thanks again for all the info.

[basite]

1.6 QR's are a big step up from 12's (I've heard them both)

they need their room but then again, so do my advents, and it works in my small room too...

[Feanor]

I ended up commiting to PS Audio HCA-2 amp on Agon.

It has input impedence of 100K, so I dont think it would be terribly mismatched.
Now I gotta decide whether to go with MG12 or 1.6QR. Let the journey begin..

Thanks again for all the info.

I haven't heard the HCA-2's but by all reports they are very decent digital amp and a bargain at the new or used price. Like I said, now that I have the tube preamp, I wish I could once again hear the my former digital amp.

I had to decide whether to go MG12 or 1.6QR when I decide to upgrade from the MMG. Basically I figured the MG12 was an uninspired compromise between MMG and the 1.6. Stretch for the 1.6 if you can, and you'll never look back: they are one of the truely great bargains in hifi.

[jrhymeammo]

Yeah, I've also heard them side by side in a room that is much smaller than mine. I thought the difference are very noticablle, but 12s are great without a doubt.
I'm gonna head up to the store again this weekend with some music that they would never play at the store and think about it more.

Only down side is that the system is driven with ARCAM, and they are not on the warmer side.
I should save around $100 cuz I'm gonna have my friend from out of state buy'em for me. F' da state 'ssales tax is what I say.

How big is your room Feanor?

-J

[bobsticks]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, waitaminnut...Jayra's going with digital amps and panel speakers? What's the world coming to?

Congrats on making the decision to change up the system. This is pretty well polar opposites as far as sound goes I would think, but that's what it's all about-- celebrating and enjoying the diversity in playback styles.

Quite obviously I've lost track of your meanderings. Are you going with tubes in the preamp section?

[jrhymeammo]

Sure did, but I thoughtchu knew.

four 6DJ8/6922/ECC88 and a pair of 6V6 is in my BAT pre.

but that's what it's all about-- celebrating and enjoying the diversity in playback styles

Exactly!! I'll probably go with a pair of 300B monoblocks and some truly ugly speakers after Maggies.

I got PSA, cuz well.... I have to try it out for myself.

[jrhymeammo]

I went ahead with 1.6QR in black with dark cherry trims. Everythin should come in by next friday or so. Will see how they sound, but I'm not expecting much outta 1.6QR$ straight outta box.

Now, let's get back to discussing rolling tubes!!

JRA

[Mr Peabody]

JRA - I'm happy for you. I hope the new additions brings you satisfaction.

[basite]

indeed, I hope they bring you a big upgrade over the triangles you have now (I'm pretty sure they will).

congrats man,

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Feanor]

I went ahead with 1.6QR in black with dark cherry trims. Everythin should come in by next friday or so. Will see how they sound, but I'm not expecting much outta 1.6QR$ straight outta box.

Now, let's get back to discussing rolling tubes!!

JRA

I think you'll love 'em, though they aren't hard rockers. I won't take a long time to burn them in. The PS Audio should give sufficient power, and I love to hear the combo with the BAT.

[jrhymeammo]

Thanks Gents,

I can't wait for gears to come in next week.

I auditioned them with 130 wattish Arcam in SE hookup and thought it was going to blow me out of the room, but never sounded harsh. I'm pretty sure 1.6QR will rock more than what my neighbors will allow. I just hope my REL can somewhat keep up with them.

JRA