Simple questions about integrated amps

[JonW]

What Kaboom says is true. Fortunately, given you are using an integrated amp, there might be one or two additional options.

I'm also not sure what Kaboom is saying there.

First, typical intergrated amps don't have DACs, (digital-to-analog converters), built-in but A/V receivers do. So connect the stereo analog "outs" on the CD/DVD player to the integrated and the digital, (coaxial or optical), "out" to the receiver. This will work just fine. Note that you will be using the CD/DVD player's DAC for stereo but the receiver's DAC for HT.

Now that sounds like a very good idea. And a regular amp would not work for this,you would need anintegrated amp, correct?

My CD player is old and only has the analog outs, but I could get another CD player tomake this work.

Second, if you're receive has stereo "Tape Out" jacks, you can connect these to the integrated amp (via any line input jacks). The Tape Out circuitry is usually minimal within the receiver, that is, the signal from the source, (CD player or whatever), is passed to the Tape Outs with little or no processing. The amp must provide the volume control hence a power amp won't do with this sort of connection.

I didn't know that. Another good idea. You could still use the receiver volume control this way?

[GMichael]

I see what you mean now. But couldn't he just connect the receiver's pre-outs directly into a simple 2 channel amp? The only down side would be that you would also be using this amp durring HT as well. The Yammie's auto set up should balance all channels for HT. The RX-V2500 & 4600 both have 6 memory settings so you can save the settings for HT in the A slot, and then run it again for 2 channel and save that in the B memory. You can access A or B settings with a push of a button on the remote.

[JonW]

I see what you mean now. But couldn't he just connect the receiver's pre-outs directly into a simple 2 channel amp? The only down side would be that you would also be using this amp durring HT as well. The Yammie's auto set up should balance all channels for HT. The RX-V2500 & 4600 both have 6 memory settings so you can save the settings for HT in the A slot, and then run it again for 2 channel and save that in the B memory. You can access A or B settings with a push of a button on the remote.

Right. Yes, I could just go CD -> receiver -> pre out -> amp -> speakers. But I thought having the receiver in there might degrade the sound a little?

If I add an amp like this, I wouldn't need the RX-V2500. Icould go for something cheaper like the 657. I'll see if that has 2 memory settings- one for music, one for movies.

[GMichael]

Right. Yes, I could just go CD -> receiver -> pre out -> amp -> speakers. But I thought having the receiver in there might degrade the sound a little?

If I add an amp like this, I wouldn't need the RX-V2500. Icould go for something cheaper like the 657. I'll see if that has 2 memory settings- one for music, one for movies.

Cool, I didn't know that about the 657. Does it have striaght & pure direct?

[JonW]

Cool, I didn't know that about the 657. Does it have striaght & pure direct?

Yup. Looks to have both straight and pure direct, from my looking at the manual. Only $400-ish. Has preouts. And I'd add an amp to the main speakers for power. So it might be everything I need (for now). But I didn't see anything in the 657 or 2500 manuals about the memory settings you mentioned. I wonder if the 657 has that- it's a lot cheaper than the 2500 and looks to have everything else I may want...

(except a true bypass/pure direct mode with sub usage...)

[GMichael]

Yup. Looks to have both straight and pure direct, from my looking at the manual. Only $400-ish. Has preouts. And I'd add an amp to the main speakers for power. So it might be everything I need (for now). But I didn't see anything in the 657 or 2500 manuals about the memory settings you mentioned. I wonder if the 657 has that- it's a lot cheaper than the 2500 and looks to have everything else I may want...

(except a true bypass/pure direct mode with sub usage...)

It's on page 65 of the 2500 manual. Didn't see it on the 657. Here is a chart comparing a few models.

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/compare/YPAO.htm

I know the 4600 has it also. But the amp is so good on the 4600 you may not need another amp to add to this. Although.... I'd love to have a Parasound Halo A21 Two-Channel Amplifier added to my system.

What kind of speakers are you getting? Have you picked those out yet?

[JonW]

It's on page 65 of the 2500 manual. Didn't see it on the 657. Here is a chart comparing a few models.

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/compare/YPAO.htm

I know the 4600 has it also. But the amp is so good on the 4600 you may not need another amp to add to this. Although.... I'd love to have a Parasound Halo A21 Two-Channel Amplifier added to my system.

What kind of speakers are you getting? Have you picked those out yet?

I found the YPAO in the 657 manual, but it didn't mention different settings or memory for it....

Not sure about speakers. I'm still auditioning them. But the Totem Forests might be the front runners at the moment.

[Feanor]

...
My CD player is old and only has the analog outs, but I could get another CD player tomake this work.
...I didn't know that. Another good idea. You could still use the receiver volume control this way?

Yep, you'll need an integrate in both cases in order to control the volume to your stereo speakers.

The receiver's volume control will work to control the HT volume but not the stereo volume.

[JonW]

First, typical intergrated amps don't have DACs, (digital-to-analog converters), built-in but A/V receivers do. So connect the stereo analog "outs" on the CD/DVD player to the integrated and the digital, (coaxial or optical), "out" to the receiver. This will work just fine. Note that you will be using the CD/DVD player's DAC for stereo but the receiver's DAC for HT.

Second, if you're receive has stereo "Tape Out" jacks, you can connect these to the integrated amp (via any line input jacks). The Tape Out circuitry is usually minimal within the receiver, that is, the signal from the source, (CD player or whatever), is passed to the Tape Outs with little or no processing. The amp must provide the volume control hence a power amp won't do with this sort of connection.

Yep, you'll need an integrate in both cases in order to control the volume to your stereo speakers.

The receiver's volume control will work to control the HT volume but not the stereo volume.

OK, so if I have the CD plugged into both the receiver and amp, that amp has to be an integrated amp- so it has the plugs for this. I think I've got it now. And it would be nice to have a remote volume control on the integrated amp for stereo listening (I know they do exist for some).

Another question about this setup: When using the receiver for movies, I could also have the pre outs of the receiver go to the integrated amp. So I am using the integrated amp for both movies and music, correct?

[Feanor]

OK, so if I have the CD plugged into both the receiver and amp, that amp has to be an integrated amp- so it has the plugs for this. I think I've got it now. And it would be nice to have a remote volume control on the integrated amp for stereo listening (I know they do exist for some).

Another question about this setup: When using the receiver for movies, I could also have the pre outs of the receiver go to the integrated amp. So I am using the integrated amp for both movies and music, correct?

Yes, you could; remember that the receiver pre-outs will include some of the receiver's processing and it's volume control, but this isn't a prohibitive problem. You would use the receiver's volume control for the over-all volume control, however you would have to pre-adjust the integrate's volume control so your main speaker's volume matches your surrounds. Since very few integrates have separate input volume levels for each source input, you would have to do this matching whenever you watched movies or TV.

But wait! Let's everyting in perspective: Rather than a separate integrated amp, why not just just get a higher-quality, more powerful A/V receiver and be done with it? Bear in mind, to exceed the quality of a better receiver, you'll be paying $2000+ for the integrated.

[JonW]

Yes, you could; remember that the receiver pre-outs will include some of the receiver's processing and it's volume control, but this isn't a prohibitive problem.

Got it. The only "prohibitive" part I see with that is the receiver being a part of the system, if it's cheap and not very good sounding.

You would use the receiver's volume control for the over-all volume control, however you would have to pre-adjust the integrate's volume control so your main speaker's volume matches your surrounds. Since very few integrates have separate input volume levels for each source input, you would have to do this matching whenever you watched movies or TV.

I understand.

But wait! Let's everyting in perspective: Rather than a separate integrated amp, why not just just get a higher-quality, more powerful A/V receiver and be done with it? Bear in mind, to exceed the quality of a better receiver, you'll be paying $2000+ for the integrated.

Exactly. So I'm thinking about the $2,000 Arcam DVR300.

Here is my hesitation with a $2,000 receiver: It may become obsolete later. So I am out $2,000 a few years down the road. But if I spent $400 on an A/V receiver and, say, $1600 on a decent amp, I'll always have the amp to use, but can view the $400 receiver as disposable. That said, I'm not really into all the latest features. I just want music to sound really, really good. And movies to sound pretty good with all the surround and bass.

If I could do a side-by-side comparison of the $400 and $2000 receivers both using the same amp, that would make the decision easy. Tought to do, though.

You see where I'm coming from?

[Feanor]

...
Here is my hesitation with a $2,000 receiver: It may become obsolete later. So I am out $2,000 a few years down the road. But if I spent $400 on an A/V receiver and, say, $1600 on a decent amp, I'll always have the amp to use, but can view the $400 receiver as disposable. That said, I'm not really into all the latest features. I just want music to sound really, really good. And movies to sound pretty good with all the surround and bass.

If I could do a side-by-side comparison of the $400 and $2000 receivers both using the same amp, that would make the decision easy. Tought to do, though.

You see where I'm coming from?

Personally if I were building a multi-channel-capable system from scratch, I would do pretty much what you're doing . More specifically, I would buy a good receiver plus a really good stereo power amp (rather than integrated) for the front speakers -- of course, I'm of the opinion that the power section is more critical than the pre-amp section: not everyone agrees.

I'm not sure what receiver I'd go for, (maybe Denon?). For the power amp I check out the NuForce Reference 8 really carefully ... http://www.nuforce.com/products.htm

Of course there is yet another option. That is to buy a "pre-processor" which is basically a multi-channel pre-amp with Dolby, DTS, etc., and DSP capabilities -- the front end of an A/V receiver if you will. You then combine the "pre-pro" with various combinations of monoblock, stereo, and/or multi-channel power amps.

In the "pre-pro" scenario you loss very little, maybe gain, flexibility over the receiver + integrated option.

For a start, look at these links, but note that pre-pros are bit pricey ...

• http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/990.html
• http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/ca...&CategoryID=69

[JonW]

Personally if I were building a multi-channel-capable system from scratch, I would do pretty much what you're doing . More specifically, I would buy a good receiver plus a really good stereo power amp (rather than integrated) for the front speakers -- of course, I'm of the opinion that the power section is more critical than the pre-amp section: not everyone agrees.

Yeah, I liked this building a system from scratch approach.

Yes, a good amp(s) is important, I realize that. There are so many, it's tough to narrow the field down. I've never heard of NuForce- I'll have a look. I've heard good things about the Odyssey Stratos, among many others.

One day of speaker shopping, I heard some speakers (B&W 703) powered by 2 McIntosh monoblocks. That was maybe 300 W and $6000 for each speaker, or thereabout. Oh boy was that nice. They even look pretty. But way over budget for me.

I'm not sure what receiver I'd go for, (maybe Denon?).

Well, I did get a chance to compare some Yamaha and Denon's side by side. To me, there was a noticeably better, clearer sound from the Yamahas at a given price. So Denon is out for me. I guess the 2 extremes are the $400 Yamaha or the $2000 Arcam. Both do everything I want, it's just a sound quality issue. There are some in between options like the $1200 Rotel 1056.

Of course there is yet another option. That is to buy a "pre-processor" which is basically a multi-channel pre-amp with Dolby, DTS, etc., and DSP capabilities -- the front end of an A/V receiver if you will. You then combine the "pre-pro" with various combinations of monoblock, stereo, and/or multi-channel power amps.

In the "pre-pro" scenario you loss very little, maybe gain, flexibility over the receiver + integrated option.

For a start, look at these links, but note that pre-pros are bit pricey ...

Yeah, pre pro's are pretty pricey. That's why I started this whole confusing post. To see if I could get a receiver to do the work of a pre pro without degrading the sound too much. I don't think I'm ready to spend the cash on a pre pro just yet. The $400 Yamaha receiver would do all the processing I would desire and be disposable if I want to get new processing later. But the sound quality might be a compromise. The $2000 Arcam receiver would also do all the processing I need,probably not compromise the sound, and allow addition of many amps later. Oh, plus it has an amp so I wouldn't need to buy an amp right away. So I can't really see any reason to spend more than $2000 on pres or pros. (For now)