Recommendations for power Infinity Kappa 9's pease

[Raj J]

Good day mate! welcome to the world of "difficult driving" Infinity dinasours...

No pun intended! but I've had many wonderful experiences driving classic speakers, especially Infinities! I used to own a pair of Renaissance 90's (the last true Inifinity classic made by Arnie Nudel); similar specs but sensitivity was far less somewhere around 89dB... nonetheless, as many of us have mentioned you will need a lot of high current and power to match it if you want the best out of your Kappa 9's!

I was using massive Manley 350 watt monoblocks (all tube design) and the preamp at the time was a conrad johnson PFR. Before the Manleys I tried numerous solid state power amps that never really did it for me, here are my ratings.
1. Adcom - crap!
2. Parasound - ok, no musicality at all, just noise...
3. Threshold - absolutely useless
4. Forte - another useless piece of capacitors & transformers...
5. tried out some older Haflers, & Sumo amps - ran out of steam within 30 mins, so did Carver, absolutely no go with any of these cheap amps.
6. Phase Linear - another load of bollocks, shut down after about two hours, cannot remember exactly when, but didn't turn on after that!
7. Accuphase - crap
8. NAD - forget it!
9. Audio Lab x 4 monoblocks - absolute nonsense!
10. B&W 600 watt monoblocks - drove ok, but didn't have the guts for bass, did not shut down held together quite well - yea it better specially at 600w/ch!
11. Carver Lightstar by carver research - drove quite fine, not so musical though.
12. Sunfire - held together quite well, overall balanced sound compared to the above.

All of the above were rated at around 250w to 300w/ch or more, however none of them gave me that musicality factor I was looking for. I went up a few notches, and tried some real quality amps from a few good friends who leant them for trials:
1. conrad johnson MF2300 - excellent! plenty of drive and very musical.
2. Krell KST - very good drive for just 100 watts, plenty of power in reserve, solid imaging.
3. Krell KSA 200 - very similar to the KST with double output and plenty of drive! well capable of driving the inifinities to true potential.
4. Bryston - older version of a 4B SST, capable of delivering somewhere close to 500w at 4ohm loads; excellent power amps to drive difficult loads.
5. Pass Labs older Aleph series, was outstanding! - probably the best overall sound, but the most expensive compared similar to an older Mark Levinson 450 watter that I tried out for a very short while since the owner didn't want to leave his amp over night, can't blame him; another beautiful amp indeed!

Out of all the above solid states, the Krell, Bryston, and Pass Labs amps were the best match! Then I tried some tube high-powered amps, and my golly! now this is what I call music & sound stage with a SLAM! Eventually I bought the Manley monoblocks 350 reference series, and they drove the Ren 90's to their true potential, absolutely no strain whatsoever effortless live scale of music. preamp and CD player were all conrad johnson design, did have a sonic frontiers SFL-1 for a very short while.

I understand that you have a limited budget, didn't we all ...
I must say this though; you have bought a speaker that needs good power to drive, matched with good stable output. The basic mistake you've done is bought the speakers first and now you don't have anything to drive them properly. Biggest mistake so many make! You must always plan to buy your amps first, then match your speakers around this. This way you will not fall short on power, and whatever speaker you upgrade to you will always have ample power to drive them...

You may have the best speaker in the world, but they are only as good as the amps driving them!
The infinity Kappa series are NOT mickey mouse speakers, they are true infinity classics, and require quality gear to get the best out of them. each time I have auditioned a Kappa series speaker they were all driven with some serious Krell gear or Bryston amps on solid state, and massive tube amps from Audio research, Manley, VTL or McIntosh.

Now that you've bought these, you will have to start from scratch; there is absolutely nothing out there of solid state for "cheap prices" that's going to do justice to your Kappa 9's. if there is any amp as I have listed above that is a real bargain in the high-end brands, carefully check it out make sure there is nothing wrong with it, or it has had a major repair...

If I were you, I would invest in a good 100 watt tube power amp to begin with, capable of driving the Kappa 9's within reasonable levels. some where around $1000 to $1500 should get you a good tube amp between 100w to 150w/ch that can easily drive the kappas. after you have saved enough, I would then upgrade to either a higher output tube amp somewhere around 300 to 450w/ch and you will be amazed at what the kappa's can really do! At the moment you don't have any idea, hence the reason I said you've bought these speakers without considering some serious amplification...

If you do eventually want to go solid state, I would save enough for either Krell, Pass Labs, Mark Levinson or Bryston on a more affordable scale.
All the other makes as mentioned in my previous list, will probably drive the Kappa's to some degree, but will never make your Kappa's sound like a "real Kappa!"
Ask Arnie, and he will tell you directly what he has created; the Kappa series can deliver a true live performance if partnered with the right equipment, and it is a beast to drive - period!

If you are on tight budget, I would plan the following:
(tube power)
(1) 100 to 150 watt tube amp to begin with, for a good second hand value with matching preamp.
(2) upgrading to 200 to 250w in step two with better preamp in the long run and your Kappas will sing!
(3) eventually getting the big monoblocks to drive your kappas, 300 to 400w and you will be performing with the band on the stage itself!

Solid state power:
(1) get hold of either Bryston, Krell, MacIntosh, or Conrad Johnson will easily match well, special bargains may be out there with a good preamp.
(2) aim to upgrade to around 400w plus on solid state gear and you will begin to notice what the Kappa's are about.

Once you've reached this level, you'd probably think there is nothing better..., until you've tried some high-powered tube amps!
All the best and let us know how it goes...
Cheers, Raj J

[efertheredfish]

Good day mate! welcome to the world of "difficult driving" Infinity dinasours...

No pun intended! but I've had many wonderful experiences driving classic speakers, especially Infinities! I used to own a pair of Renaissance 90's (the last true Inifinity classic made by Arnie Nudel); similar specs but sensitivity was far less somewhere around 89dB... nonetheless, as many of us have mentioned you will need a lot of high current and power to match it if you want the best out of your Kappa 9's!

I was using massive Manley 350 watt monoblocks (all tube design) and the preamp at the time was a conrad johnson PFR. Before the Manleys I tried numerous solid state power amps that never really did it for me, here are my ratings.
1. Adcom - crap!
2. Parasound - ok, no musicality at all, just noise...
3. Threshold - absolutely useless
4. Forte - another useless piece of capacitors & transformers...
5. tried out some older Haflers, & Sumo amps - ran out of steam within 30 mins, so did Carver, absolutely no go with any of these cheap amps.
6. Phase Linear - another load of bollocks, shut down after about two hours, cannot remember exactly when, but didn't turn on after that!
7. Accuphase - crap
8. NAD - forget it!
9. Audio Lab x 4 monoblocks - absolute nonsense!
10. B&W 600 watt monoblocks - drove ok, but didn't have the guts for bass, did not shut down held together quite well - yea it better specially at 600w/ch!
11. Carver Lightstar by carver research - drove quite fine, not so musical though.
12. Sunfire - held together quite well, overall balanced sound compared to the above.

All of the above were rated at around 250w to 300w/ch or more, however none of them gave me that musicality factor I was looking for. I went up a few notches, and tried some real quality amps from a few good friends who leant them for trials:
1. conrad johnson MF2300 - excellent! plenty of drive and very musical.
2. Krell KST - very good drive for just 100 watts, plenty of power in reserve, solid imaging.
3. Krell KSA 200 - very similar to the KST with double output and plenty of drive! well capable of driving the inifinities to true potential.
4. Bryston - older version of a 4B SST, capable of delivering somewhere close to 500w at 4ohm loads; excellent power amps to drive difficult loads.
5. Pass Labs older Aleph series, was outstanding! - probably the best overall sound, but the most expensive compared similar to an older Mark Levinson 450 watter that I tried out for a very short while since the owner didn't want to leave his amp over night, can't blame him; another beautiful amp indeed!

Out of all the above solid states, the Krell, Bryston, and Pass Labs amps were the best match! Then I tried some tube high-powered amps, and my golly! now this is what I call music & sound stage with a SLAM! Eventually I bought the Manley monoblocks 350 reference series, and they drove the Ren 90's to their true potential, absolutely no strain whatsoever effortless live scale of music. preamp and CD player were all conrad johnson design, did have a sonic frontiers SFL-1 for a very short while.

I understand that you have a limited budget, didn't we all ...
I must say this though; you have bought a speaker that needs good power to drive, matched with good stable output. The basic mistake you've done is bought the speakers first and now you don't have anything to drive them properly. Biggest mistake so many make! You must always plan to buy your amps first, then match your speakers around this. This way you will not fall short on power, and whatever speaker you upgrade to you will always have ample power to drive them...

You may have the best speaker in the world, but they are only as good as the amps driving them!
The infinity Kappa series are NOT mickey mouse speakers, they are true infinity classics, and require quality gear to get the best out of them. each time I have auditioned a Kappa series speaker they were all driven with some serious Krell gear or Bryston amps on solid state, and massive tube amps from Audio research, Manley, VTL or McIntosh.

Now that you've bought these, you will have to start from scratch; there is absolutely nothing out there of solid state for "cheap prices" that's going to do justice to your Kappa 9's. if there is any amp as I have listed above that is a real bargain in the high-end brands, carefully check it out make sure there is nothing wrong with it, or it has had a major repair...

If I were you, I would invest in a good 100 watt tube power amp to begin with, capable of driving the Kappa 9's within reasonable levels. some where around $1000 to $1500 should get you a good tube amp between 100w to 150w/ch that can easily drive the kappas. after you have saved enough, I would then upgrade to either a higher output tube amp somewhere around 300 to 450w/ch and you will be amazed at what the kappa's can really do! At the moment you don't have any idea, hence the reason I said you've bought these speakers without considering some serious amplification...

If you do eventually want to go solid state, I would save enough for either Krell, Pass Labs, Mark Levinson or Bryston on a more affordable scale.
All the other makes as mentioned in my previous list, will probably drive the Kappa's to some degree, but will never make your Kappa's sound like a "real Kappa!"
Ask Arnie, and he will tell you directly what he has created; the Kappa series can deliver a true live performance if partnered with the right equipment, and it is a beast to drive - period!

If you are on tight budget, I would plan the following:
(tube power)
(1) 100 to 150 watt tube amp to begin with, for a good second hand value with matching preamp.
(2) upgrading to 200 to 250w in step two with better preamp in the long run and your Kappas will sing!
(3) eventually getting the big monoblocks to drive your kappas, 300 to 400w and you will be performing with the band on the stage itself!

Solid state power:
(1) get hold of either Bryston, Krell, MacIntosh, or Conrad Johnson will easily match well, special bargains may be out there with a good preamp.
(2) aim to upgrade to around 400w plus on solid state gear and you will begin to notice what the Kappa's are about.

Once you've reached this level, you'd probably think there is nothing better..., until you've tried some high-powered tube amps!
All the best and let us know how it goes...
Cheers, Raj J

Paul and Arnie told me that they don't like and recommend the sound of the Krells for this speaker. They work pretty well for the woofers, but they are at least unmusical for the midrange and tweeter. If you have the budget and want the amp the Kappa 9's have been developed with you might look for an Audio Research M300.

I agree with most of your statements expect one. I do not know why you say the Threshold's are useless. They are still at the forefront amps when you look to match Genesis and Infinitys to the midrange and tweeter panel and they sound pretty similar to my M300's.

Best,
Stefan

[Raj J]

Hey Stefan,

Funny thing this post was initially done somewhere in Sept 2010... and here we are still giving our expert advice, this guy has probably forgotten us by now!
Driving Kappa's with some mediocre amp, trying to get the best out of it will no doubt result in blown up units or will completely shut down; I truly hope he manages to find someting decent eventually...

Speaking of Krells: they don't really tickle me, they just have enough muscle to drive about anything, other than that the musicality factor is missing a great deal!
With regards to solid state I prefer Mark Levinson or Pass Labs, or Bryston on a more affordable level that can also drive about anything out there. However, I personally don't like solid state sound!
To me Threshold is really not up to the mark when compared to any of the other top brands I just mentioned, even MacIntosh or McCormack sounds far better to my tastes. I also happened to listen to a pair of massive 800watt Threshold monoblocks driving a pair of huge B&W Matrix 800 (7ft tree trunks!); in terms of power, dynamics, guts, bass to rip your clothes off and of course bring down a few tiles from the roof it was all there. BUT there was absolutely no MUSIC! My 60watt conrad johnson MV60SE with KT120 tubes beats the overall sound by a FAR margin; Tubes rule!

I understand you have the Audio research M300 amps, nice! They are very fine amps, and is a hybrind design of course which I have had the pleasure of listening to driving a glorious pair of Apogee Divas. They were in mint condition, and the sound was very musical indeed. Compared to Threshold, no way not even close! There really is no point trying to compare solid state with tubes...

There are many music lovers, audiophiles, enthusiasts etc who will strongly stand for solid state - so be it! They enjoy there music through transistors and enjoy listening to their favorite tracks via solid state gear, that's great mate!
As for me and the other vast majority of true music lovers, there will always be tubes somewhere in the chain, you cannot deny that! In all of my 25 years & over dealing with 2 channel audio systems in various forms, shapes & sizes - I can still place a little tube amp side by side against a massive solid state monster, and at once notice the natural tones of music through that tube amp regardless of the brand.

I now have the Quad ESL 2905's being driven with a simple pre-power combination from conrad johnson and a vacuum tube CD player; this is musicality at it's finest!

We all sincerely know, and cannot deny it that "under driving" quality speakers will get you no where... That's why I keep telling those enthusiasts to first get your amplifiers; build your system around the amp and not the speaker, unless you have the big bucks!

Trust you are enjoying your music to the max and very satisfied with those lovely M300's!
What speakers and preamp are you using by the way?
Have a good one,
cheers, Raj J

[efertheredfish]

Hello Raj,


They are good amps for the woofers, but they can't handle the transparency in the midrange and tweeter region.
The Thresholds are almost perfect and becouse the STASIS circuit makes them sound like a tube amp. If you do not want to have retube and it is a perfect match for Infinity hence it makes appear the ribbon to become crystallic clear which on the other hand doesn't work with the Krells.
John Gordon Holdt and Arnie Nudell seleted therefore the Thresholds as an fabolous soloution to the Infinitys if you do not like to have a tube amp. If you use a tube pre your as good as with the M300's. There is not much sound difference in my setup no matter what i use becouse i pair it correctly. ( tube pre)
The STASIS Series were tested on the IRS, Gamma, Beta, RS-1 and they sounded like a dream!
The M300's have many disadvantages they are not working stable at 230V here in Europe and if the tests points aren't set correctly they are a disaster. They are expensive in repair. I retube once a year and the costs aren't cheap. They aren't my favourite stuff. Conrad Johnson is better, but you can also use a tube pre and the Threshold for the Kappa 9's and they sang as good in the lower frequency region even better than the M300's.
Match the components right. Thats the glue.
When Arnie selected Threshold as an option you can't go wrong. You just do not like the sound of this amp, but its pairs nearly perfect!
What you want with Bryston. They are far too low powered for all the Infinitys and noone would recommend them.
The Adcoms cannot drive this speaker. They have a good circuit, but they are not a high current design. My suggestion for 500$ on Craigslist, the HCA2200 works nearly perfect and it was tested during that time with the Kappa 9's. It is not a new amp where nobody knows if it works or not. It does pretty well. It isn't the most musical option, but I understand this guy.
We here have an Inflation about 4%. Its pretty silly to drive to car wash and pay 12$ when you select the cheapest washing programm. SILLY???
The Pass nearly have the same circuit and I agree that they sound well on the Kappas.
Also your infos that a 200 Watt tube amp sounds fine and a higher powered one better.
Man, the output transformer has to be designed with two ohm windings switched with another one parallel or one ohm windings at the output tap to match the low impedance with the Kappa 9's.
There are 50 watt tube amp outside that sound better than your suggestions here in the forum!

We all know there are a lot possibilities, but we should come back to the origin of this post to recommend very low priced affordable electronics to drive the K9's. Anything else is good to hear, but wont help this guy much.

My suggestion is a 300$ tube pre from Prima Luna and the HCA2200 to drive the whole speaker.

That should work and shound quite fine!
Cheers
Stefan

[efertheredfish]

Some other working amps come in my mind, but i do not know how they are dealt in the US.

Nakamichi PA7E
FORTE 1A ( a pair to drive the kappa 9's)
Vincent D150