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Pro Amps I.e. Crown, Qsc
Has anyone had experience using Pro Amps from compaines like Crown, QSC, Pyle, etc. for home theater mains. They seem to provide good power for the money, but what is the down side?
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i have said it time and time again and i wont stop, the crown K1 and K2 is a highly reguarded amp in studio use. Now if its good enough to make the music and movies we love why isnt it good enough to use at home. I wouldnt waste money on companies like Pyle. The Crown Reference series amps are great too. Another amp company a lot of people over look is AB but for years 100s of large studios used them too. You could always break the bank and go with something like a Pass Labs but is it really worth it, to me not at all. I would take the K2 over almost any other amp on the market. there is a mod to bypass the sleep mode on it too
http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/kspecs.htm
http://www.stereotimes.com/amp031302.shtm
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My observations from my own limited experience is that Crown and QSC make excellent stuff that sounds as good or better than a lot of home audio gear for significantly cheaper. Stay away from Pyle.
A lot of people with more technical knowledge than myself have been persuading me to give pro-amps a shot my next time around, so I've been demoing a few systems over the past few months. I've even personally a/b tested my favorite Bryston gear agains some equally powerful Crown and QSC stuff. I wouldn't say they sounded better than the 4B, but damn they were close enough impress the hell out of me. A good "first impression" indeed.. A lot cheaper. Perhaps both were slightly brighter. I have to admit I'm leaning towards the pro-amp route for my future upgrades..
The bad news is they are usually ugly, have fans that make noise, as and some models have the beefy power supply hum. They can run hot, and that fan can be annoying unless you love loud music that'll drown it out. For a lot of high-sensitivity speakers, the benefit of the extra power in pro-amps is somewhat lost because you might not take advantage of it as much. In this case, a good home-audio amp might very well be the more pragmatic option - no fans ( or at least they're more quiet) , better looks, etc.
Good clean power, is good clean power. More is better, but there are diminishing returns. I don't subscribe the magic fairy dust theory that some high-end super expensive amps have such finer grade components that affect the sound quality. I believe the components are better, but that diminishing returns are inhibiting performance gains.
This combined with the fact that the pro-audio market is much, much larger than the high-end home audio market (and I'm losely defining that as the separate components market) provides better economies of scale - that is the ability to produce more, for much lower cost. There's also much more competition...less audiophile mark-up. A consumer's dream really. Pro-amps can offer great value and performance for in-home use.
Just one man's opinion. A few years back I'd have said now way, pro-gear isn't as refined or is too analytical or some such garbage, but I based my opinion on the crappy Pyle, Behringer, or Peavey stuff I had heard. And I don't own any pro-gear right now, I'm not being a fanboy, just being honest.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axess
Has anyone had experience using Pro Amps from compaines like Crown, QSC, Pyle, etc. for home theater mains. They seem to provide good power for the money, but what is the down side?
As another mentioned, fans.....
If you look into several models of Crown (I have experience with these), they dispense with a finned heatsink for a flat plate which they force air over to reduce weight. In the pro market, portability is more important than the noise a fan might make at the FOH position. The K-Series is the exception.
-Bruce
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just think about it, fan or not once you get it loud enough you'll never hear the fan lol.
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I have a pair of QSC PL 1.8s that I ran my hifi on for a while. Too noisey on the fans, but sounded great. Another reason I went the huge receiver route instead of separates... I'm tired of robbing my amps from the hifi to do a gig ;)
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This is a good point
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Originally Posted by pelly3s
just think about it, fan or not once you get it loud enough you'll never hear the fan lol.
There are a few units out there (forgot which ones) that have variable fan speeds based on temperature. So theoritically, the fans will get loud only when you turn up the volume. Alternately you could buy several lower-powered low-profile amps for each speaker to keep the temperature down. Also, if you're inclined to do this, you can install your own fan speed dial (a friend of mine did that in his studio), but that sounds a bit risky, I know. (Maybe you could try this on a used Pyle amp ;-)
I set up an 8 speaker gym a while back and got to play around with the Crown amp (I think it was an XLS series, around $600) and compare it with my HT amps. While it certainly didn't sound as clean as my PS Audio, B&K, or Adcom amps, it was pretty close. At moderately loud volumes, the fan was too loud to enjoy classical music, but it also didn't have a temperature-controlled fan, which is what I would recommend.
I should also add that Crown amps have a tremendous amount of raw power in comparison. If you're going to compare them watts/$, with a little less attention to sound quality, then a Crown amp is a much better value. Also, if you're going to be hiding that amp in a back closet and power multiple speakers (like off a speaker selector switch), then it would be perfect. Amps like the Crowns are designed to go down to 2 ohms or lower and I don't know of any HT amps that can do that at the same price-point.
Also, I've heard a lot of bad stuff about the Pyle amps, but the sales rep at Guitar Center said that they have made quite a few changes at the company and expects them to build better units in the future. Then again, maybe he was just trying to sell me one of the new Pyle amps. Anyhow, they are a bit cheaper too because of the bad rap, although I don't think I would recommend bying a used one of these.
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Pyle = bad no matter what happens to the company. In my situation at home I tend to use a lot of pro amps but all convection cooled, solves the fan noise. When critical listening is not really called for sometimes the big toys will come out and make a lot of noise.
nightfier - if you get a chance get your hands on a K2 and play with it, or some of the Stewart amps. Hell I personally even love the old JBL 62xx series stuff like my 6230 its got a lot of heart :)
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Convection Cooled?
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Originally Posted by pelly3s
Pyle = bad no matter what happens to the company. In my situation at home I tend to use a lot of pro amps but all convection cooled, solves the fan noise. When critical listening is not really called for sometimes the big toys will come out and make a lot of noise.
nightfier - if you get a chance get your hands on a K2 and play with it, or some of the Stewart amps. Hell I personally even love the old JBL 62xx series stuff like my 6230 its got a lot of heart :)
Pelly, what are some convection cooled amp models out there? Is the K2 one of these? Also, isn't that risky when dipping down to under 2 ohms?
Also, not to get too far off topic, but Guitar Center was selling a $100 tube preamp. Now it may not sound ideal (I only heard it in the store - sounded fine, but there was a lot of other noise in the store), but there isn't a tube amp available for less than 5 times as much in the home consumer market...
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I dont know about the tube pre. The only tube pre I own is an old Mcgown from like 1967 it has made some nice recordings.
the k2 is convection cooled, the stewart world series is too, the old jbl 6230 and 6260 is.... im sure there are many more out there but tonight i cant think of too many. one too many shots makes it hard to think. Ive run k2's at 2 ohms with dips around 1 ohm with no problem, some like it some dont. i know its not convection cooled but crowns new itech amps have been proven to run for a while at around a 1/4 ohm before they flip out. i have run my stewart world 600's at 2 ohms and they loved it, gave me a ton of power, granted they got warm but what amp wouldnt get warm driving 2 ohms almost at full clip for 3 and a half hours.
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one more thing that ive said time and time again if pro gear is good enough to record the music we love then it should be good enough to play it back. everyone makes a big deal about all these fancy cd players and everything but you cant really get better than the source it was recorded on. i mean some of my favorite recordings were on a 5 channel altec tube mixer straight to tape and then recently remastered onto cd, and my favorite thing to listen to them on is a pair of jbl studio monitors or altec VOTT's because they are fairly flat and bring the recording to life
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You can read almost 2,700 posts on pro amps for home use here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=418666
I have 2 Crowns (XLS 402 and 202) and 2 Carver digital tripath amps powering my HT and am very happy with the quality of sound. I and several others in that thread did A-B comparisons with several high end "audiophile" amps and stuck with the pros. For the money you can't beat 'em, IMHO.
I put a 10 watt 100 ohm resistor in line with the fan circuit and it really quieted them down.
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1 Attachment(s)
QSC SRA 3622 Power Amplifier
Quote:
Originally Posted by axess
Has anyone had experience using Pro Amps from compaines like Crown, QSC, Pyle, etc. for home theater mains. They seem to provide good power for the money, but what is the down side?
I have the QSC SRA 3622 (Studio Reference Amplifier).
It has RCA inputs. (rare for pro sound)
Ultra quiet fan!!
Not ugly.
Massive power.
Very clean sound.
http://www.audiorex.com/finalitem_1....67&intCTabID=2
You will be amazed with the power and happy with the sound.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRANDONH
I have the QSC SRA 3622 (Studio Reference Amplifier).
It has RCA inputs. (rare for pro sound)
Ultra quiet fan!!
Not ugly.
Massive power.
Very clean sound.
http://www.audiorex.com/finalitem_1....67&intCTabID=2
You will be amazed with the power and happy with the sound.
Nice amp!
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1100w!
Very nice indeed. Now where else are you going to find a 1100W amp with 0.05% THD? A friend of mine is about to spend $2500 on a stereo amp. I can't wait to tell him about this one.
Now, the real question: how does the consumer market get away with charging at least twice as much for all their amps? I'm starting to feel a little jilted myself for all the amps I've bought (and sold) over the last decade...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
Now, the real question: how does the consumer market get away with charging at least twice as much for all their amps?
I owned a Crown amp long ago. Reliable and powerful, but not in the same league sonically as the Threshold that followed it. The power supplies are typically much smaller on pro amps. My CDP weighs more than the QSC amp.
rw
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most modern pro amps use a switching power supply thats why they are getting so light and seem to have a small power supply. I am yet to see too many home amps that have a supply as big as a Macro Tech 10000 (any amp with two power cords is cool), or even that a 5000 oh and lets not forget about the huge supply in the QSC RMX 5050. I do miss the days of my Macro Techs but I managed to get more power and lost about 300 pounds off my racks by going with Itech's.
those QSC studio reference amps are great. Its a close call between those and the crown reference series on which one i like more. the QSC does look a lot cooler
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These and other reasons are why I haven't been too gung ho on hifi gear of late (the last 30 years). I use the big big stuff for real audio. Don't care much about an iota here and there, a huge flagship AVR pretty much foots the bill for my home system. When I do real audio, I use truck fulls of heavyweight stuff.
All that being said, I do appreciate the schooling I'm getting here in this arena... thanks one and all ;)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
I owned a Crown amp long ago. Reliable and powerful, but not in the same league sonically as the Threshold that followed it. The power supplies are typically much smaller on pro amps. My CDP weighs more than the QSC amp.
rw
Different ball game quite often though...power supply size by itself is no longer a good measure of an amplifier's ability. Even for home audio amplifiers. Unless they are the exact same topology. Even then, there's differences in PSU's too. Chasis, fins, the use of fans, etc. all contribute to weight as well. A/V receivers still go cheap quite often, but even $300 receivers have seen credible, real power increases in recent years, ability handle lower impedances a bit better, while significantly reducing size and weight of PSU's.
There's little doubt in my mind that many of the established amplifier manufacturers keep using old school, heavy, less efficient designs simply because a great portion of the target market uses weight as a quick evaluation measure. They can be cheaper to produce too.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelly3s
I am yet to see too many home amps that have a supply as big as a Macro Tech 10000 (any amp with two power cords is cool), or even that a 5000 oh and lets not forget about the huge supply in the QSC RMX 5050. I do miss the days of my Macro Techs but I managed to get more power and lost about 300 pounds off my racks by going with Itech's
What is the capacity of either amp in joules?
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
What is the capacity of either amp in joules?
rw
Curious, I can't figure out where you're going with this question...but I'd love to know.
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im in the same boat.
i would love to see any hifi amp come close to the power and current of the MA-10000. The thing was used to power MRI machines. Its completely stable all day long at .5 ohms
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
Curious, I can't figure out where you're going with this question...but I'd love to know.
That would be quantifying the notion of "huge supply". As a point of reference, my mono amps store 250 joules each.
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
That would be quantifying the notion of "huge supply". As a point of reference, my mono amps store 250 joules each.
rw
I'm missing something here, been a few years since my last physics class. But the relevant unit of application (power) is still watts, no? Regardless of joules.
With a unit of time introduced, wouldn't the number of joules and watts be the same anyway? Ie: 1 joule = 1 watt-sec?
(as I said, I'm very curious were you're going with this)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
I'm missing something here, been a few years since my last physics class. But the relevant unit of application (power) is still watts, no? Regardless of joules.
With a unit of time introduced, wouldn't the number of joules and watts be the same anyway? Ie: 1 joule = 1 watt-sec?
There is no direct relationship with the quantity of watts from an audio amplifier and the stiffness of its power supply. They vary widely indeed. The formula for stored energy is J=CV2 /2 where Joules = Capacitance X Voltage (rail) squared divided by 2. (Sorry I can't get the HTML superscript tag to work). Do the math on some amps you know. Rated wattage is irrelevant. I know of some 100 watt amplfiers with stiffer power supplies than most 500 watt amps.
I liken power supply stiffness to torque. How quickly can you deliver those watts? For most sound reinforcement applications, the question is moot. There is no dynamic range to speak of. While the amps may be cranking out kilowatts, they lack the ability to dynamically jump like the best amplifiers are capable of. It took me years to fully understand what reviewers meant by an amplifier having "authority". It is that utter sense of control and ease at any power level with the ability to literally startle you on wide dynamic range material. As in truly live, unamplified music.
Quality and quantity are not the same.
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
There is no direct relationship with the quantity of watts from an audio amplifier and the stiffness of its power supply. They vary widely indeed. The formula for stored energy is J=CV2 /2 where Joules = Capacitance X Voltage (rail) squared divided by 2. (Sorry I can't get the HTML superscript tag to work). Do the math on some amps you know. Rated wattage is irrelevant. I know of some 100 watt amplfiers with stiffer power supplies than most 500 watt amps.
I liken power supply stiffness to torque. How quickly can you deliver those watts? For most sound reinforcement applications, the question is moot. There is no dynamic range to speak of. While the amps may be cranking out kilowatts, they lack the ability to dynamically jump like the best amplifiers are capable of. It took me years to fully understand what reviewers meant by an amplifier having "authority". It is that utter sense of control and ease at any power level with the ability to literally startle you on wide dynamic range material. As in truly live, unamplified music.
Quality and quantity are not the same.
rw
I'm afraid my experience with pro-amps is far different than yours. If anything I find them every bit as dynamic, if not more than "audiophile" amplifiers. But to be fair, I I would suspect if you were to push a Bryston or Krell to their limits for sound reinforcement, they'd behave similarly. If you start to loose dynamics, that tells me you need a bigger amplifier. I'll admit I'm not an expert in this area though...I'll have to go crack open a physics textbook or two...as I said, it's been awhile for me.
I also don't understand your torque analogy. The "quick" element of delivering watts doesn't jive here. How long should it take? How long does it typically take? Is it really distinguishable?
Those kilowatt pro-amps do have fantastically huge power supplies. Larger than most big watt hi-end amps I'm aware of (though I expect there's some exception). I dunno...to me it seems pairing an amplifier with a PSU that can meet the expected demands placed on it with perhaps a bit of headroom would be sufficient. Beyond THAT, it becomes moot, with no additional advantage.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
I'm afraid my experience with pro-amps is far different than yours. If anything I find them every bit as dynamic, if not more than "audiophile" amplifiers. But to be fair, I I would suspect if you were to push a Bryston or Krell to their limits for sound reinforcement, they'd behave similarly. If you start to loose dynamics, that tells me you need a bigger amplifier.
You're still talking in quantitative terms. I'm not talking about clipping characteristics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
The "quick" element of delivering watts doesn't jive here. How long should it take? How long does it typically take? Is it really distinguishable?
Play something with explosive dynamics like Orffs "Carmina Burana" or Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" to illustrate my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
Those kilowatt pro-amps do have fantastically huge power supplies. Larger than most big watt hi-end amps I'm aware of (though I expect there's some exception).
So, my question remains. You keep saying they're "fantastically huge". How huge? The metric for judging that parameter is joules. The big brother to my amps, the Siegfried, has 780 joules. The Passlabs X1000 has 700 joules. The Audio Research Ref 610T has 1000 joules. Crack open a case and look at the total capacitance and find out the rail voltage.
(edit) I couldn't find schematics for current Crown amps, but the CT800 amp with 305 watts /channel stereo runs 12,600 uf @ 87 volts. That yields 24 joules.
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Originally Posted by kexodusc
I dunno...to me it seems pairing an amplifier with a PSU that can meet the expected demands placed on it...
But most cannot on an instantaneous basis when the source material is wide range unamplified music. Here again, sound reinforcement applications are undemanding in that regard.
rw
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well i will just put it this way about about this whole thing, take almost any home amp and tell me if you have enough current to power an MRI machine. I would highly doubt it, also how many will give you over 7,000 watts per channel at a half an ohm constantly. And even getting away from the beast of an amp that a 10,000 is, if pro amps have small power supplies how is it they can deliever massive amounts of wattage and current. Lately the answer is a switching supply but before it was just a huge transformer. I will challenge home amps against a macro tech 5000 and see what the winner would be when it comes to longer term high power conditions and which one delivers more current. lets see how many home amps can drive my double 18 boxes to there limit without going to hell.
as for dynamics, i do a lot of live music with a huge amount of dynamics so i dont see where the lack of dynamics is in live music.
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Originally Posted by pelly3s
I would highly doubt it, also how many will give you over 7,000 watts per channel at a half an ohm constantly.
Indeed. It's a Mack truck.
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Originally Posted by pelly3s
And even getting away from the beast of an amp that a 10,000 is, if pro amps have small power supplies how is it they can deliever massive amounts of wattage and current.
Neither of your two original examples are like that discontinued amp. When you read the spec sheet for the 10000, however, you quickly see that the power figures are stated only for a "single cycle tone burst at 1 khz". Running Class B at that. Certainly not intended for serious listening. For a given power output, the best home amplifiers have far larger power supplies as I indicated in my last post. Like a factor of 20.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelly3s
Lately the answer is a switching supply but before it was just a huge transformer. I will challenge home amps against a macro tech 5000 and see what the winner would be when it comes to longer term high power conditions and which one delivers more current. lets see how many home amps can drive my double 18 boxes to there limit without going to hell.
Perfect analysis of the very different design criteria between amps designed for sound reinforcement and those intended for the highest quality music reproduction. Who cares how many bins an amp can drive when you use a single pair? Similarly, sustained high power capability is irrelevant when the musical content consists of wide dynamics. Each type of amp is specialized for a different task. Pro amps are like pickups. A GMC 2500 can pull a big boat all day long. Attempting that in a Porsche would smoke the clutch in short order. The GMC, however, has no hope of accelerating or cornering in the same league as the Porsche. I found a schematic for this amp on the Crown site. It uses four 15,000 uf caps rated at 110 volts. Assuming some design reserve, it would store 300 joules if the rails were at 100 volts, or 230 at 90 volts.
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Originally Posted by pelly3s
as for dynamics, i do a lot of live music with a huge amount of dynamics so i dont see where the lack of dynamics is in live music.
My point was that the type of music with the widest dynamics is that which uses no amplifiers at all. Fortunately when I go to the symphony, I don't find stacks of horns and piezos driven by multi-kilowatt amp banks. :)
Returing to the original question, pro amps can be quite cost effective in an HT system. I just wouldn't use one in a high quality music system.
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
You're still talking in quantitative terms. I'm not talking about clipping characteristics.
Neither am I...and if I'm talking in quantitative terms, it's only because I'm trying to understand and verify your claims, not avoid the issue. Qualitative isn't enough, there must be a reason for the qualitative results, and this should be quantifiable. You used the word "quick" or "quickly" earlier, which implies speed, a measurable quantitiy. Are we talking about slew rate here or something else?
I'm having a difficult time here learning what you're saying here, and I'm hoping you can step me through this a bit better as you seem to know a bit more than I, this is the first time I've ever heard someone claim pro-amps lack the dynamics that hi-fi amps might have. I'd like to explore this, learn why this is true, but I'm unable to verify what you're telling me so far...hoping you can help...
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The metric for judging that parameter is joules. The big brother to my amps, the Siegfried, has 780 joules. The Passlabs X1000 has 700 joules. The Audio Research Ref 610T has 1000 joules. Crack open a case and look at the total capacitance and find out the rail voltage.
(edit) I couldn't find schematics for current Crown amps, but the CT800 amp with 305 watts /channel stereo runs 12,600 uf @ 87 volts. That yields 24 joules.
I've found a Crown amp and a big bad Krell I can do this for, hopefully before I go away this weekend. Not doubting your claims here, I suspect this could be a revelation of sorts.
Quick question...how did you arrive at 24 joules in the above example?
Assuming the figures you give me are correct, step by step I get (.0126 F X 87V X 87V)/ 2 = 47.6 or so...we're off by about a factor of two. Again, I think I'm overlooking something.
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But most cannot on an instantaneous basis when the source material is wide range unamplified music. Here again, sound reinforcement applications are undemanding in that regard.
Okay, this is where I have the issue. What you're saying and the numbers we can crunch together aren't jiving with what I'm hearing. Let's look at a Crown XLS 602, which I recently got to play with. 370 watt "average power" (not RMS). It performed quite well beside a Bryston 4B (a reasonably well respected unit). DG's Carmina Burana was in fact one of the reference discs used (Beethoven's 5th on SACD another).
The speakers used wereof average efficiency, about 88 dB., 4ohm nominal speakers, from the Seas Excel line. These aren't 2nd rate by any means.
We cranked these things up to the high 90 dB range the odd peaks measured (a weighted only on the SPL meter we had) above 100 dB in room.
Neither of these amps had any problem pushing these speakers at all. I can't say either amp was any better at producing the dynamics, the sound from the speakers was so good in both cases that it was hard to pick a winner. I'd give the slight sonic refinement edge to the Bryston, it's impossible for me to accept it was $2200 dollars better than the Crown.
And here I think is where the crux of the matter lies. Show me an amp for $500-600 with as big a power supply, as much real power available, for the $575 pricetag on the Crown, and I'll be happy. Yes, I'll concede that sooner or later the market will become more discriminating, and you'll be forced to look at the likes of Krell, Levinson etc..
But in the $1000 and below range, I think pro-amps hold their own quite nicely in terms of power and sound quality. Though I'd love some suggestions if you have any, I expect to be in the market for some new amps quite soon.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
Are we talking about slew rate here or something else?
Don't think so. It may show up, however, in tone bursts.
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Originally Posted by kexodusc
I'm having a difficult time here learning what you're saying here, and I'm hoping you can step me through this a bit better as you seem to know a bit more than I, this is the first time I've ever heard someone claim pro-amps lack the dynamics that hi-fi amps might have.
Well, strictly speaking, dynamic range is the difference between the minimum and maximum levels. There is no notion of how forcefully that is achieved nor the relative levels. And fans don't help with low noise floors. Especially when a good aftermarket PC is used which can further reduce the low level haze. As my gear has gotten better, I end up listening at reduced levels and still get satisfying loud in the room.
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Originally Posted by kexodusc
I've found a Crown amp and a big bad Krell I can do this for, hopefully before I go away this weekend. Not doubting your claims here, I suspect this could be a revelation of sorts.
Have fun.
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Originally Posted by kexodusc
Quick question...how did you arrive at 24 joules in the above example? ... Again, I think I'm overlooking something.
Nope, I musta done the division by two twice. You are correct.
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Originally Posted by kexodusc
Okay, this is where I have the issue. What you're saying and the numbers we can crunch together aren't jiving with what I'm hearing...Neither of these amps had any problem pushing these speakers at all.
"Pushing" the speakers is not what I'm referring to. Here's a totally unscientific measure: the ability to downright startle you or raise the hairs on your arms like the real thing. Last fall, the ASO did the Carmina Burana again and the wife and I were in row C. That piece contains explosive dynamics.
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Originally Posted by kexodusc
I'd give the slight sonic refinement edge to the Bryston, it's impossible for me to accept it was $2200 dollars better than the Crown.
I only speak in performance absolutes and don't disagree that there is a decided premium to achieve what I am referring to. BTW, the Wotans will knock your socks off with three dimensional realism, focus, and SLAM.
http://home.comcast.net/~ralphwallac...wotan_rear.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
And here I think is where the crux of the matter lies. Show me an amp for $500-600 with as big a power supply, as much real power available, for the $575 pricetag on the Crown, and I'll be happy. Yes, I'll concede that sooner or later the market will become more discriminating, and you'll be forced to look at the likes of Krell, Levinson etc..
But in the $1000 and below range, I think pro-amps hold their own quite nicely in terms of power and sound quality. Though I'd love some suggestions if you have any, I expect to be in the market for some new amps quite soon.
Agree with you completely. As for considerations for your next amp, I might try a used Threshold Stasis or Passlabs X150 with a good power cord. Nelson Pass has birthed many a fine amplfier over the past thirty years. His current Passlabs amps are killer SS units. The larger ones use no less than 250,000 uf of capacitance.
I've never favored the Krells very much, but then I haven't heard their best examples. Harry Pearson used to run KMA-160 monoblocks on his Nola woofers a few years ago.
rw
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Live audio has much wider dynamic range than any recording, and much higher spl requirements without failure. Recording is, after all, something that was live sound, either acoustic or electronic, then almost always compressed at least some when mastered. I could blow up most hifis with just a drum sound check, even megabuck ones.
Joules only really matter to old dinosaur type power supplies; new switchers and hi tech pro amps have supplies that can vary available supply current faster than the audio demand, let's face it folks, audio isn't all that fast as far as modern electronics capabilities go here in the gigahertz era.
I do agree that different amps certainly do sound different though. The pro ones certainly do. Those Crown MacroTech amps are sweet, but heavy. I'm sure that hifi amps all sound different, too. That's why yas gotta listen to them, preferably in your own system, to find hifi nirvana.
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So what am I listening for?
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Originally Posted by E-Stat
Here's a totally unscientific measure: the ability to downright startle you or raise the hairs on your arms like the real thing. Last fall, the ASO did the Carmina Burana again and the wife and I were in row C. That piece contains explosive dynamics... I only speak in performance absolutes and don't disagree that there is a decided premium to achieve what I am referring to. BTW, the Wotans will knock your socks off with three dimensional realism, focus, and SLAM.
E.,
OK, I've been reading all this with great interest. I have several amps and speakers on hand that I can swap out for this. I also have several different recordings of Orff and Stravinsky's, as well as other dynamically explosive selections (Mahler's 5th and and Hovhaness' Mount Wildcat come to mind) and have heard Carmina and Rite of Spring live several times. But to keep things simple, let's stick to Carmina since most people here will know and own that one. I'm not interested in unscientific measures which could easily be influenced by other environmental and psychological factors. What I have observed in the past with different amps in the under $2K price range are small differences that one could almost classify as "preferrences" rather than true measures of capability. That said, I am very interested in hearing what you are referring to in the above discussion about Joules and explosive dynamics.
So, in Carmina, what exactly am I listening for?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
That said, I am very interested in hearing what you are referring to in the above discussion about Joules and explosive dynamics.
So, in Carmina, what exactly am I listening for?
My reference is the 1981 Telarc version with the ASO and Chorus. I confess bias to this version because my long term friend, mentor, and ex-TAS reviewer JWC has been a bass in the chorus for thirty years.
There are two sets of passages that exhibit huge contrasts, both containing steep initial attacks and abrupt returns to silence. Using Sound Forge as a visual guide, even my Telarc Rite of Spring does not contain such massive swings. The first one is about six minutes into In Taverna. The chorus refrain of Wafna, wafna! will knock you off your seat live.
Here is a Sound Forge representation:
http://home.comcast.net/~ralphwallace/audio/taverna.jpg
The last minute or so is worth hearing as well. The second passage is found in the last couple of minutes at the end of Fortune No.25. Again, the impact is heightened by the return to silence. Here again is Sound Forge:
http://home.comcast.net/~ralphwallace/audio/fortune.jpg
Here's another one just for grins. This rates at least two pampers on the HP scale. It is fromYim Hok-Man's Marco Polo recording of Chinese drum music.
http://home.comcast.net/~ralphwallace/audio/hokman.jpg
Hearing this on the Grand Exoticas is a joy to behold. :)
Enjoy your comparisons!
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
My reference is the 1981 Telarc version with the ASO and Chorus. I confess bias to this version because my long term friend, mentor, and ex-TAS reviewer JWC has been a bass in the chorus for thirty years.
Ahh, the ASO...Probably what I miss most about Atlanta...I no doubt have had the priviledge of witnessing your friend perform.
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A little more guidance?
E.,
OK, I don't have the 1981 Telarc, but I do have a couple of others, including the Donald Runnicles/Atlanta Symphony Orchestra SACD, so that should do. Now, I know the passages well, a short section of In Taverna is actually on one of my home-made eval CD's that I bring to the stores to audition stuff.
So what would be some of obvious the differences between a high-joule amp and a lesser one? I did a quick pass last night with the finale ('cause it's nice & short) comparing my HCA-2 amps against an obviously less powerfull unit, a NAD C320BEE integrated. While there are differences, I'm not sure what was listening for, last night.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
Ahh, the ASO...Probably what I miss most about Atlanta...I no doubt have had the priviledge of witnessing your friend perform.
And then you journeyed to Parts Unknown. How is the weather this time of year in PU? :)
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
And then you journeyed to Parts Unknown. How is the weather this time of year in PU? :)
rw
Err...yeah, I really should update that now that I know where I am...
Getting damn cold fast. NB, Canada is a long way away from Georgia...in soooo many ways. Not all of them bad.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
So what would be some of obvious the differences between a high-joule amp and a lesser one? I did a quick pass last night with the finale ('cause it's nice & short) comparing my HCA-2 amps against an obviously less powerfull unit, a NAD C320BEE integrated. While there are differences, I'm not sure what was listening for, last night.
First of all, the differences may fairly be considered subtle, not "obvious" to all. That depends upon your passion for getting the music right. I've come to learn that the best path to achieving wide dynamic range is to plumb the depths, not the height of the scale. Keep the peak levels matched as best you can. Here are real questions: (1) which amp takes you down further in level with content? and (2) which amp is more at ease whilst delivering a FFF crescendo? The most powerful passages should ultimately be rendered with absolute control and grace. While Class T switching amps run digitally, the Audio Research 105.2, for example, still has 144,000 uf of capacitance in its powr supply. The need for power supply stiffness is not limited to conventional class A or class AB amps.
It is here where better cables of all sorts can help achieve a "blacker" background. There is missing detail to be found in most systems, not from the top, but from the bottom of the dynamic scale. Which when salvaged, increases the overall range. Such higher resolution systems remove a somewhat tinny "haze" over the entire image - resulting in a sound that initially seems darker and somehow rolled off. What's missing is not more detailed musical content, but a subtle glare cast over the music. The highs become better defined and more delicate once that mist has been lifted.
rw
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